Just how bad can a vehicle be before its considered unrestorable

[junkyardjeff]

This is a serious question I am asking here since I dont think many believe me that the remains of my friends Huppmobile and Cord are just that remains,I am not talking about very low production models or vehicles that have family history or sentimental value but just how far would someone go to restore a normal old car that to most would walk away from. If anyone out there has felt sorry for a vehicle that should of stayed in the junkyard I want to hear about it and would like to see pics of it if possible,I really like hearing about vehicles that have been brought back from the dead and I mean really dead.

[Amphicar BUYER]

There is no real B&W clear answer to this. The easy answer is if the cost of restoration is too much for anyone to willingly spend the money on it, then it's beyond hope. There have been many a car restored simply because they loved the car and not because of the dollar value.

If it's restored as a hobby in Average Joe's garage, then labor costs are minimal and that can be a factor. If the car is to be professionally done, the costs skyrocket and make it too expensive to do.

I had a hand in rescuing an Amphicar that spent 18 years at the bottom of a lake (52' down) in Boston. It is now restored and living in Florida. We recently saved a 70 Cuda ragtop pulled out of a riverbank. There was no place on the entire body that was not rusted thru larger than about 12"x12". The owner was insistant that we did it. LOTS of money later it's beautiful, and almost on the road. I dug a 38 ford truck out of the sand, ony the top 12" of the cab was visable, shes a very nice rod now.

[Larry Schramm]

As quoted by OldCar

"The best way to turn $1.00 into 70 cents is to restore a vintage car.

Bernie J "

Larry

Edited February 16, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

We restored a 1936 Thorne Gas/Electric milk truck which was a one of a kind and had great sentimental value to the owner. We replaced about 90% of the exterior sheetmetal on the vehicle as well as about 70% of the frame and internal structure. NOTHING is unrestorable, it just costs more.

[MCHinson]

Reminds me of this...

As the proverb says: “This is my grandfather’s axe: my father fitted it with a new stock, and I have fitted it with a new head.”

—Robert Graves, The Golden Fleece

[msmazcol]

Some nut cases in Chicago can attest to that!!

[junkyardjeff]

I lack the tools and skills to make body panels so I would have to say no way on alot of them,my dad bought my 55 sunliner new so I done all I could to save it. Even though it looked nice from the outside when I tore into it I found a bunch of hidden rust but I wont tackle one like that again,it would probably have been easy for a proffesional but I did not have the money to have one do it so I done it myself. When I got my 37 chevy p/u back in the mid 70s I think alot would of scrapped it as it was missing the bed and beat up but had minimal rust,it was one of those projects that got quit on early and by the time I got around to it again alot of parts were being reproduced so it was easy for me to finish then. Good used sheetmetal are still very hard to find so I cheated and used fiberglass fenders and a reproduction bed but its back on the road again,now that I got a computer it opened up a different world on finding parts that would have taken me years to find before.

[junkyardjeff]

I think I seen that truck,there was one matching that description at the Vintage Truck magazine show in Yellow Sprongs Ohio a couple years ago.

We restored a 1936 Thorne Gas/Electric milk truck which was a one of a kind and had great sentimental value to the owner. We replaced about 90% of the exterior sheetmetal on the vehicle as well as about 70% of the frame and internal structure. NOTHING is unrestorable, it just costs more.

[msmazcol]

Success in restoration is not about how many tools line the shop wall. It's about a dedication that you either have or don't have. If you can't make it in your shop you go to a buddies shop. If he can't make it you talk to a buddy of that buddy. My Dad and I have worked on restorations that there just are not parts to be had because there are non left.

That's the way we like'm.

Edited February 16, 2010 by msmazcol (see edit history)

[hddennis]

To me, everyone missed the most important thing Junkyardjeff said.

"We were discussing the value of the Cord all original and he said it would cost about 250,000 to make it a car worth about 75,000.

If you paid attention to that nothing else matters unless your out to impress someone with how much money you can waste.

Howard Dennis

[poci1957]

This is a serious question I am asking here since I dont think many believe me that the remains of my friends Huppmobile and Cord are just that remains

It is a serious question and a thorny one for those of us who don't like street rods. You seem like lots of average "cruise night" old car fans who can appreciate both rods and restored cars. And I used to be that way too before I saw (IMO) the destruction of old cars by (IMO) increasingly arrogant street rodders. I am biased on these issues, but because of over thirty years of seeing these cars and their owners at shows and trying to understand their motivation. BTW, as I am being controversial, I am only speaking for myself here.

I would guess that your friend's car was likely beyond practical restoration possibilities as you described, but I still am not interested in it or it's story. And the question has been posed is it better for an old car to deteriorate while waiting "to be restored someday" or go to a possible street rodder. A good question to be sure, especially depending on how bad the storage conditions. But I would say if a car sits around at least it might remain together. When the low budget wannabe street rodder takes everything apart and cuts the roof off then it truly is "too far gone" for anything else. And though logic has it that only unrestorable old cars are generally street rodded, we all know that is not the case and bragging rodders love talking about cutting up a "good" old car. They even wear T shirts proclaiming this. I do not want to see any more posts about them, that is why I am on this site.

[LINC400]

I have been to many concours and museums and have seen cars from the 1900-1920's brought back from not much more than a frame, cowl, and if lucky, engine block. Many of these cars are the only one left, or one of very few remaining. I'm sure these cars would have been considered "too far gone" at some point in time. Does that mean it would have been ok to rod them then? The only remaining example of a 1915 X street rodded because it cost too much to restore it? Ok to street rod a 1934 Duesenberg in 1959 because it cost too much to restore correctly?

Plus there is the argument of is it better to let it sit and rot or be street rodded and back on the street? Personally, I think it is better to let them rot in some cases. Seeing them rodded just gives other rodders ideas to do the same. Maybe that 1940 Huppmobile was a rusty hulk that was too far gone, but will the 10 copies of it made in the next few years be made from rusty hulks or nice cars? I bet they will be made from nice cars. Originally 1957 Chevy and 1949 Mercury customs were probably made from cars that were not worth restoring. But when is the last time you saw a stock one? Yet new customs get made every year, and I'm sure they are not scrounging junkyards for cars that are "too far gone" in order to do it. There are steel and fiberglass reproductions made of '32 Fords, Model T's, Zephyrs, etc. I don't care what is done with those. But a lot of customizers feel it just isn't the same as chopping up an original. And as Todd said, maybe that rusty hulk isn't worth restoring now, but it can be later. Once it is chopped and cut, it can't.

Generally the "too far gone" excuse is used to justify chopping and rodding any car that they simply wanted to chop and rod regardless of its condition. Maybe this doesn't apply to your friend's, but since the chopping and cutting crowd gets way more support at cruise nights, car shows, on every cable TV show, in magazines, and everywhere else, I see no reason to support it here, one of the few places in favor of stock preservation and restoration.

Edited February 16, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[R Walling]

The real question should be; how much of the original car should be left, after replacing all of the bad parts, to be considered a restored car?

[Guest windjamer]

My Buick sat in a farmers back 40 from 1981 to 1996. My wife owned it from 68 to 79 so there was some sentamental value there when we found it and dug it out of the mud. Like Johnny Cash,s Caddy you could hear fo;ks laughing for miles awrond when I droug it home. A good friend and body shop owner flat refused to work on it for about eight years,but I kept after him and worked on his cars till I finely shamed him into starting on it, all this time I had scrunged parts fixed what I could and kept thinking of when I MIGHT drive it. In 2006 my buddy folded his arms,looked at the Buick and said Damm Dick I, meaning him self,do nice work. I said yep Bobby you do, just hard to get you started and then I took it to National. Bottom line,Its your car. Do what you want. Just dont expect me to complement you on a butchered car.

[junkyardjeff]

For some vehicles that no reproduction parts are available due to low production and since there are non in the junkyards what does one do if the intent is to go to as original as possible,like my friends Cord what do you do if you want to get it back on the road but the cost is prohibitive to put it back like it came from the factory. Do you let it completely rot away and be useless to no one because it wont be completely original?,some vehicles are just not worth destroying another similar vehicle to put it togather due to the low production. If that was my car and since the floors were gone and it being a unibody I would find a 40s or 50s car with the same wheelbase and set the Cord body on that frame and utilize as most as I could from the donor to make it drivable and make it look as much like a Cord as I could,it would not be a original but one could not call it a hotrod since the parts from the donor are all stock components. Some vehicles to me are just not worth bringing back due to the cost other then if there is sentimental value and plan on keeping forever as one could never recoup the investment if the cost to restore is way more then its value,so what does one do.

[old car fan]

Anything can be restored.It just come down to one mans junk,is anothers treasure.I just hate to see these cars scraped,modified,when somebody needs the parts ,to make a real car

[1957Birdman]

A guy on Ebay was offering a 55 T-Bird that had been the victim of a stem-to-stern fire. That car was not restorable in any way, shape, or form. He was expecting to get at least $2000 for it. Lol.

[junkyardjeff]

I would of walked away from the two remains my friend has since I dont have the space or the ability to bring one back from that condition,now I know some one who is trying to straighten out a 40 Ford coupe body that was in a garage fire and is doing a excellent job so far and cant wait to see it finished. I wish I had taken some training in body repair so I can repair the seriously damaged and rusted vehicles so I try to get the ones that are not too bad.

[LINC400]

If the car is so rare that you cannot find parts for it, that is all the more reason why I would not want to see it rodded. If it is so far gone that you have to put it on a modern frame and adapt all kinds of new parts to it, then I think it would be better off parted out to help restore other cars to stock.

There is a 1941 DeSoto that shows up at the local cruise night. It looks completely stock except the motor was blown, and the guy put in a Hemi from a new wrecked Magnum. At first I thought, well I suppose it isn't too bad as long as you can't tell when the hood is closed. Better than having it scrapped. However, 2 different guys with '41 and '57 Plymouth 6 cylinders that ran perfectly fine talked to him and decided they didn't like the lack of performance from the 6 cylinders. So this guy told them how he fitted the Hemi. Now both of those cars have Hemis. They also got goofy wheels and graphics, and the '57 even got a brown and gold crushed velour interior. So I think I would have rather seen this DeSoto sitting in a garage for years waiting for the correct engine instead of encouraging others to customize otherwise fine cars.

[junkyardjeff]

I now have changed what I do with my cars regarding the motors,I have started to keeping the original motors if they are in decent shape but have been adapting modern trans and installing rear ends that have better gearing so I wont need to change everything and can drive on the highways. I do not own a trailer so they must be able to be driven to the event I want to attend,I made the mistake of yanking out the original drivetrain on my 55 sunliner and put in a 351-W and C-4 trans and luckily the motor was not built right so guess what another Y block has been found and sometimes soon it will be rebuilt. The only part I did not like on the 55 was the trans and was originally going to put a slightly newer trans in it and leave the rest alone but I let a friend talk me into installing the newer motor,since the motor has not run like I wanted I located a 56 292 and now I have to find the rest of the parts I need and then it will be put back to the way I originally planned. I was used to driving mid 50s Olds with hydromatics and that Ford o matic was just a little sluggish for my tastes so its now going to get a early 60s cuise o matic with a FMX valve body so it will shift like a normal trans and be a little peppier but still be somewhat original to look at it,now if I can get someone to modify a FOM so it starts out in first when put in drive then all original parts will go back in.

[junkyardjeff]

Now getting back to what I originally posted I think my veiws are going to be at odds with many as I think the very rough cars like my friends should be saved using what ever you have to do to get it done,I am not going to touch the subject of the nicer vehicles in this thread as it will bring out the worst in us. To me a old car that has been brought back from the dead with original or some non original parts is alot better then sitting rotting or heading to the crusher,I know all of them cant be saved and we do need parts cars to keep the ones we have going but if someone finds a rough one and wants to bring it back then do it.

[poci1957]

Seeing them rodded just gives other rodders ideas to do the same. Maybe that 1940 Huppmobile was a rusty hulk that was too far gone, but will the 10 copies of it made in the next few years be made from rusty hulks or nice cars? I bet they will be made from nice cars.

...new customs get made every year, and I'm sure they are not scrounging junkyards for cars that are "too far gone" in order to do it.

Generally the "too far gone" excuse is used to justify chopping and rodding any car that they simply wanted to chop and rod regardless of its condition. Maybe this doesn't apply to your friend's, but since the chopping and cutting crowd gets way more support at cruise nights, car shows, on every cable TV show, in magazines, and everywhere else, I see no reason to support it here, one of the few places in favor of stock preservation and restoration.

Linc400, AMEN to all these points, you said it perfectly! Todd

[Shop Rat]

Now getting back to what I originally posted I think my veiws are going to be at odds with many as I think the very rough cars like my friends should be saved using what ever you have to do to get it done,I am not going to touch the subject of the nicer vehicles in this thread as it will bring out the worst in us. To me a old car that has been brought back from the dead with original or some non original parts is alot better then sitting rotting or heading to the crusher,I know all of them cant be saved and we do need parts cars to keep the ones we have going but if someone finds a rough one and wants to bring it back then do it.

Just understand, you are not going to get a lot of support here on the AACA Forums for modifying vehicles, even if it is to save them from the crusher. It is not what the AACA is all about. We are trying to preserve vehicles of all kinds, even trash trucks as evidenced by the one that was restored beautifully and shown at Fall Hershey 2009, as they could have come from the factory. We would rather see those valuable, rare parts go onto a vehicle that will preserve what it was supposed to look like, not a souped up version that would practically take a DNA test to know what it was supposed to be.

[poci1957]

We are trying to preserve vehicles of all kinds, even trash trucks as evidenced by the one that was restored beautifully and shown at Fall Hershey 2009

Just a note, THAT was quite a sight, wasn't it? I always LOVE the truck classes at Heshey because they always include a sight you never see anywhere else. A real treat! Todd

[R W Burgess]

.....We are trying to preserve vehicles of all kinds, even trash trucks as evidenced by the one that was restored beautifully and shown at Fall Hershey 2009, as they could have come from the factory.......

I'll admit now guys, that I have been lax in my photo duties. Hopefully I will catch up and add a couple more meet/tour pictures that no one has seen yet.

Including truck pictures like these......

[junkyardjeff]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I think any vehicle that was saved from the jaws of the crusher should be brought back as best as the person who wants it can do with it,any old car on the road is alot better to me then one gone forever.

[Rusty_OToole]

In some cases the far gone relic is best used as a parts car.

Here is a strange example. Recently one of the original 50 pre production prototype VW beetles turned up in East Germany. There were 50 of these built by hand for test purposes. All were supposedly scrapped in 1940 or 41 but somehow 2 survived.

The recently discovered one is nothing but the remains of a body shell that had been crudely attached to a rear drive Volga frame. The chassis is gone and the front of the body was cut away and discarded. Even the windshield was cut out and replaced by a newer windshield.

All that remains of the original car is the rear part of the body and the doors.

The other one is in the VW museum. It was salvaged and restored as a display in the early 50s. At that time the original doors were thrown away and replaced with production doors which are subltly different and the rear part of the body modified.

At this point it would be possible to combine the 2 to make one original car. But this is not going to be done. Instead the world is going to have 2 half cars, pieced out with new replacement parts.

[Guest]

In some cases the far gone relic is best used as a parts car.

Here is a strange example. Recently one of the original 50 pre production prototype VW beetles turned up in East Germany. There were 50 of these built by hand for test purposes. All were supposedly scrapped in 1940 or 41 but somehow 2 survived.

The recently discovered one is nothing but the remains of a body shell that had been crudely attached to a rear drive Volga frame. The chassis is gone and the front of the body was cut away and discarded. Even the windshield was cut out and replaced by a newer windshield.

All that remains of the original car is the rear part of the body and the doors.

The other one is in the VW museum. It was salvaged and restored as a display in the early 50s. At that time the original doors were thrown away and replaced with production doors which are subltly different and the rear part of the body modified.

At this point it would be possible to combine the 2 to make one original car. But this is not going to be done. Instead the world is going to have 2 half cars, pieced out with new replacement parts.

The pre-production vehicles you are refering to are called VW30 (type60). The reason they are called VW30 is because 30 were made , and they were made by Daimler-Benz on orders from the (RDA) government. I have seen both survivors and also the original one-off type 12, what is missing is the three type of cars in the middle between the type 12 and the VW30 and those three are called the V-1, V-2 and V-3. Then there is the final prototype called the VW38 and it has the body shape we are framiliar with. The VW38 was also called the KDF car.

FYI no production door will even come close to fitting a VW30 and the VW30's front doors are suicide doors.

I have pictures of workers destroying some of the cars and they were destroyed before the war, and in Germany the war started in Sept. 39.

What would be wrong for for VWag to take whatever is left of the vehicle and re-create it from Porsche's original plans to a museum piece just like scientist or anthropologist do in re-creating a partial skeleton to a full one? They don't have all the parts either.

Don

Edited February 18, 2010 by helfen (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

I'll admit now guys, that I have been lax in my photo duties. Hopefully I will catch up and add a couple more meet/tour pictures that no one has seen yet.

Including truck pictures like these......

Thank you so much Wayne. I was sort of hoping that someone would have a photo of the trash truck and post it. Thanks for coming through with one.

Sort of a funny story, one of the judges on my team saw it come in behind us and commented, "The show just started how can the trash cans be full?" I told him, "Take a look, they aren't here to gather the trash, they are pulling into a show space". :cool: We all went over to check it out before we started judging our class.

I heard there was also a cement mixer truck.

[Shop Rat]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I think any vehicle that was saved from the jaws of the crusher should be brought back as best as the person who wants it can do with it,any old car on the road is alot better to me then one gone forever.

When someone spends their money on a vehicle they get to do what they want with it. That is their right as a citizen of the U.S.

But the AACA is not for vehicles that are cobbled together from this and that. We don't try to improve on the original design, we preserve it as it was designed, right or wrong. If a particular vehicle doesn't meet someone's need for a vehicle that will travel at Interstate speeds they don't go buy one and then change it. They look for one that will.

[Guest]

When someone spendso do what they want with it. That is their right as a citizen of the U.S theirthey get t.

money on a vehicle But the AACA is not for vehicles that are cobbled together from this and that. We don't try to improve on the original design, we preserve it as it was designed, right or wrong. If a particular vehicle doesn't meet someone's need for a vehicle that will travel at Interstate speeds they don't go buy one and then change it. They look for one that will.

Doing what you want to a vehicle depends on the state you live in. In California you cannot modify a emission system on any car from 1966- present. Other restrictions are ride height, types of lighting systems, fender/mud flap requirements, bumper requirements, audio and exhaust noise ect.

Don

[junkyardjeff]

When I posted this question I knew what vintage car organizations would think about the subject but I wanted to pick everyones brains for their personal opinions,this is why I never get too seriously involved in clubs as they have a tendency to want everyone to conform to their way of thinking and I cant do it. If I do join its for the newsletter and to find out if a show or swapmeet is close to home,since I butt heads with the purists I cant get too seriously involved or they would throw me out.

[Guest Dean_H.]

WTG JYJeff, don't get caught up in things that ruin your day. I recently chatted with a guy who is a 'purist', he was bashing any kind of modification. Interestingly, he has installed seat belts, mirrors, turn signals, safety glass, and battery cut offs on his cars. Theses modifications are OK

On another note, California is cracking down on titles given out to hot rodders. Evidently, people will build a frame and install a fiberglass body, and then register it as a 1932 Ford, when in fact it has no original 1932 parts on it. If they were to try and register it as a 2010, it would have to meet current smog and safety standards.

An unintentional consequence of this new regulation might be more hot rodders going after original cars with a title.

[junkyardjeff]

The California legislation will paint a big target on all original vehicles and I hate to see the end result,I can not afford a real nice car to start with let alone buy one to cut up so I am forced to buy the ones that have been sitting in the woods for years or someones abandoned project that needs a ton of work and missing parts.

[Guest]

When I posted this question I knew what vintage car organizations would think about the subject but I wanted to pick everyones brains for their personal opinions,this is why I never get too seriously involved in clubs as they have a tendency to want everyone to conform to their way of thinking and I cant do it. If I do join its for the newsletter and to find out if a show or swapmeet is close to home,since I butt heads with the purists I cant get too seriously involved or they would throw me out.

So does that mean you just asked the question to stur the pot and see how many people you could agitate??

Why would you do this when you know many of us have come from other so called vintage clubs ( brand specific ) that have been hijacked and that don't uphold their own mission statements?. Give us a break AACA is our last stop.

Don

Edited February 19, 2010 by helfen (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

So does that mean you just asked the question to stur to pot and see how many people you could agitate??

Why would you do this when you know many of us have come from other so called vintage clubs ( brand specific ) that have been hijacked and that don't uphold their own mission statements?. Give us a break AACA is our last stop.

Don

Don, I have wondered the very same thing. JYJ has stated many times that he does not want to keep vehicles the way they could have come from the factory. That he wants to make them the way he wants them to be for his needs. That is in direct conflict with the mission of the AACA. We are NOT a club for street rods, rat rods, hot rods, modified vehicles or goat carts for that matter. There are clubs for those interested in those type of vehicles.

[junkyardjeff]

I just wanted to see what the peoples opinons were about the very rough vehicles,I know not every one sees eye to eye with the clubs they belong to so I was hoping to get personal opinions and not what the club they are in preaches. Some how the mention of the nice vehicles crept into this thread and that was not my intention since thats not the vehicles I could afford to buy,yes I do change them a little but its for safety (brakes) and to make them more drivable (trans and rear ends) since I dont have the luxury of owning a trailer and if I want to take them to a show no matter where it is the vehicle has to be driven on the highways safely and not be a slow moving hazard to the other drivers. In my twisted sense of humor I was kind of agrivating on the other post about my friends cars but if the whole post was read you should of gotten I was saying,if you did not read past 41 Huppmobile and Cord then you missed it or could not read in to what I was trying to say if you knew who I was. When I get cars like what my friend has I use what ever I can get get them back on the road as inexpensive as I can and try to use vintage parts which includes parts from those dreaded hotrodders,I dont have unlimited funds to make sure every part has the original casting number or date code or feel like dragging on the restoration for a few more years since I cant find the exact parts since I want the car togather and not in pieces that my family would have to deal with in case of something would happen to me.

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,

Would our 1919 Packard Twin Six qualify as "restored from a very original" car?

This is what we "claimed" from the family ranch in Texas in 1971.

Bill Boudway:)

[Guest]

The pre-production vehicles you are refering to are called VW30 (type60). The reason they are called VW30 is because 30 were made , and they were made by Daimler-Benz on orders from the (RDA) government. I have seen both survivors and also the original one-off type 12, what is missing is the three type of cars in the middle between the type 12 and the VW30 and those three are called the V-1, V-2 and V-3. Then there is the final prototype called the VW38 and it has the body shape we are framiliar with. The VW38 was also called the KDF car.

FYI no production door will even come close to fitting a VW30 and the VW30's front doors are suicide doors.

I have pictures of workers destroying some of the cars and they were destroyed before the war, and in Germany the war started in Sept. 39.

What would be wrong for for VWag to take whatever is left of the vehicle and re-create it from Porsche's original plans to a museum piece just like scientist or anthropologist do in re-creating a partial skeleton to a full one? They don't have all the parts either.

Don

Just wondering if the above is Ok with AACA as far as a car being in a show?

[poci1957]

I just wanted to see what the peoples opinons were about the very rough vehicles,I know not every one sees eye to eye with the clubs they belong to so I was hoping to get personal opinions and not what the club they are in preaches.

In my twisted sense of humor I was kind of agrivating on the other post about my friends cars

When I get cars like what my friend has I use what ever I can get get them back on the road as inexpensive as I can and try to use vintage parts which includes parts from those dreaded hotrodders,I dont have unlimited funds to make sure every part has the original casting number or date code

OK, Jeff, I only speak for myself but you are here a lot and have a few common misunderstandings that I would like to touch on, hopefully others can step forward too. It seems like you think:

(a) AACA people are only interested in high dollar show cars and giving themselves trophys

( only people with big money can afford to avoid to deal with unmodifed old cars

© street rodders are nicer and less judgemental than we are

Now, (a) is absolutely untrue; by their own survey less than 10% of AACA members have entered their car in a judged national show. I never have. And while ( may look true in the cost of a full professional restoration, item (a) will prove that most people here are not dealing with that. Your comments about date coded parts are also a misunderstanding, they are an issue at a Corvette or big Mopar meet, but the AACA does not judge such things, only that a correct part is in place and installed in a workmanlike manner. An AACA meet does not know or judge "matching numbers" in any way that I am aware of.

© is a little trickier. The AACA's stated purpose is restoration and preservation of original features, and your stated goal is to get "a car on the road as inexpensive as I can". So, for example, say your Sunliner needs a new paint job. You (understandably) do not want to pay someone $6000 to do all the work for you. So you can spend 6 months in your garage in your spare time learning to do it yourself and for about $1500 it looks OK. Or for $200 you can paint it in black primer in a weekend.

So if I correctly think the $200 job is unfortunate and shows no skill or initiative I am right, but I am also being judgemental. The rat rod crowd of other black primer cars is friendly and accepting, because then you can all justify each other's shortcuts. After all, you "don't have unlimited funds" so why even make an effort? Lots of people feel that way, more all the time.

Money aside, it is important to me to be sensitive to originality and restore and preserve as correctly as I can, I just think it is the right thing for me. It costs more money and time and is much more of a challenge, but there can be a happy medium which is probably where most of us fall with our cars. That is the difference and why (I think) most of us have a problem with what we see as destructive decisions. It is not to be snobby rich people, it is just to have some sort of standard of behavior. And our ranks are shrinking, so maybe in 20 years we will all be gone, but until then the AACA is our last refuge to respect originality and not ridicule it. That is how I feel anyway, Todd