Hot News!!!!!!

[R W Burgess]

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* You heard it first on the Buick Forums!!

[Dandy Dave]

Yes sir, GM is in a whole heap of trouble.. ..Dandy Dave!

[Guest windjamer]

I think if GM files bankruptcy they will emerge better than ever. It will allow them to get rid of the union and renegotiate a fair wage for the employees. Im sorry,but no man putting a wheel on or a bolt in a vech. is worth $70. an hr. My question is,the little guy that owns a hundred shares of stock,what will it be worth down the road??

[Barry Wolk]

In bankruptcy the stock and bonds are cancelled. The secured creditors get everything and the investors are wiped out.

Same thing happened with K-Mart. The worst part is that I was doing work for K-mart at the time. All receipts from K-Mart taken in in the 90 days prior to K-Mart's filing had to be returned to the bankruptcy court. You were simply out the money. On top of that, 30,000 shares of stock were cancelled.

Think of what will happen when companies that service GM or make parts for GM have to return all the money that they've been paid in the last 90 days. Talk about a domino effect.

[1937hd45]

Overpaid union workers and too many different models are the major problems IMO. Go for bankruptcy, we DO NOT NEED Washington running more of America into the ground.

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We DO NOT NEED Washington running more of America into the ground. </div></div>

Hear, Hear to that.... Dandy Dave!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Im sorry,but no man putting a wheel on or a bolt in a vech. is worth $70. an hr. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">For Sloan's sake, will this urban myth <span style="font-style: italic">never</span> die?!?!?!</span>

$73 an Hour: Adding It Up

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Talk about a domino effect. </div></div>

Nightmares. Pure nightmares.

[Guest Orphanauto]

I am worth $73.00 an hour although my employer nor anyone else seems to think so, haha As a over the road truck driver, I have delivered to Chrysler, GM, and other union placed, they take FOREVER to unlaod a truck. Before trucking, when I was a wharehouse manager, time was money, I got the trucks in and out, worked hard quickly and long hours. Unions don't, no offence to unions people, I'm just saying from personal experience, I think if they get rid of the unions, it would make a big difference. Why don't they have their own doctors and nurses on site, like Henry J Kaiser did for his employees, which started the Kaiser permementa hosptials, no need for medical if you have you own medical staff for such a hugh company, just wondering, I seriously hope they servive. But then afgain, I wish Studebaker did too.,

[WireWheel]

After learning a trade and working 22 years at an Independant Union Shop and going to a union shop I was amazied at all the things I was not allowed to do. Each and every little part of a job had to be done by a different trade. Lots of time spent waiting on someone else to do their part and lots of time when it was their turn it would be break time so more time wasted.

[Rawja]

Can someone explain how the union is responsible for GM losing approximately half of it's remaining market share over the past 10 years at a time when they enjoyed a price advantage over their foreign competitors?

How can that same company be expected to survive when it's (already depressed) sales drop in half over a period of 12 months?

Blaming the union is completely missing the point, both in causation and solution.

You continue to be misinformed at your own peril.

[Guest BJM]

Sorry Dave and others. It's not all urban myth. I know some union folks and interviewed for a UAW job at a Cadillac plant.

I suppose it's not all in the salary, true but it's the long term benefits, the health coverage for life, including spouses in some or most cases. It's a cozy pension when they should have a 401k like the rest of us stiffs.

It IS public perception. Everytime I turn around the UAW is saying NO DEAL or coming to the table begrudgingly. The perception continues when you see how the Japanese do things - in groups and huddles. Many Japanese line workers have college degrees and treat the process as a career. (benchmarking/improvements/JIT management)

I saw the propaganda stuffed into Ford Escapes delivered to my dealer. I saw decontenting of all the main line cars from soft pliable plastics and fabrics to that cheap ass hard plastic because the manufacturers had Union overhead to pay into each car.

You know what? If the Unions strike and say it's all unfair and GM needs WORKERS in the plants to build thier cars for say, $25 per hour, with health benefits and a 401k, I'm there in a heart beat. That would be a huge raise to what I am making now trust me, and I don't demand health, pension for life and if I get laid off I won't demand to continue to get paid as if I was working.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry Dave and others. It's not all urban myth. I know some union folks and interviewed for a UAW job at a Cadillac plant. </div></div>

The link I posted has hard numbers, and a direct comparison in detail. It walks through the analysis in such a way that anyone could understand <span style="text-decoration: underline">exactly</span> how much more <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> of GM's legacy and union costs are per car vs. the competition. It isn't zero, but it's probably the least important thing to focus on based on the <span style="text-decoration: underline">facts</span>.

I've posted that link 5 or 6 times in different threads. Based on the responses in those threads, I'll bet I've posted it more times than it's been read.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rawja</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can someone explain how the union is responsible for GM losing approximately half of it's remaining market share over the past 10 years at a time when they enjoyed a price advantage over their foreign competitors?

</div></div>

It's not all union, <span style="font-weight: bold">It's unfair trade, period!!! </span>

And until congress does something about that, it's going to get worst!

[old car fan]

Its not unfair trade ,it,s the union ,and trade,How can a man make a living,when the beaners are taking my job ,Im sorry mexicans,America ,Wake up

[Guest BJM]

Well Old Car Fan, your derogatory comment regarding Hispanics will probably result in removal of your post, despite your partial retraction.

[Guest BJM]

Dave,

The article isn't the end all be all. The figures are spongy fluid - in the case of retirement costs is it not true that these retirees get medical insurance for life? Honda, Nissan and Toyota don't offer their retirees this sweet heart deal.

2nd, the base wage they are making is $40 per hour. The average for all Americans was $15.40 per hour last year. So, just on wage alone these unskilled workers are making almost 3 times more then average. And that average includes everyone from fast food workers to medical doctors.

Further, the Japanese are not tied into these benefits vis a vis a sweetheart labor contract. If the market doesn't warrant a plant being open, it gets closed - that's called capitalism. It allows them the elasticity to manage output and parts supplies. The small 3, because of their union contracts - still have these fixed costs whether Joe Six Pack is putting fenders on Pontiacs or sitting in a sports bar.

How many of those stupid suppliers for the big three are also - you guessed it - UAW organized?

Finally $800 is $800. I suspect it adds more like $1500 to each car but I lack the hard proof your article points out. Remember some Japanese cars do come from Japan, increasing delivery costs. Plus, they have a better product - at least overall in the last 35 years.

Finally, no amount of cost analysis can make up for what the UAW does for turning out poorly made cars and creating a culture of division with their employer. It's a sick culture that can't be fixed - ever.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The figures are spongy fluid - in the case of retirement costs is it not true that these retirees get medical insurance for life? Honda, Nissan and Toyota don't offer their retirees this sweet heart deal.

</div></div>

That's all in there.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2nd, the base wage they are making is $40 per hour. </div></div>

Which translates to $82,000/yr. Do you really mean to suggest that <span style="text-decoration: underline">starting</span> line workers out earn <span style="text-decoration: underline">any</span> form of college graduate? The figures from the car companies themselves beg to differ. These here are for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">average</span> guy on the line. (And yes, they're from the <span style="font-style: italic">NYT</span> article.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Finally $800 is $800. I suspect it adds more like $1500 to each car but I lack the hard proof your article points out. Remember some Japanese cars do come from Japan, increasing delivery costs. Plus, they have a better product - at least overall in the last 35 years. </div></div>

Yet "American" cars have enjoyed a price advantage over the "imported" competition for at least the last 15 years, with little apparent effect on their appeal to the general public. <span style="font-weight: bold">All the carping about productivity, inflexible contracts, job banks, supplier unionization, etc. pale when this simple fact is brought into the mix.</span>

If there's such a large and obvious American price advantage, and there is, what's all the whining about?

The UAW guys are going to take a hit for sure. So are the stock holders, suppliers, executives, engineers, designers, managers, dealers, janitorial staff, etc. Everybody's going to have to pay for the mistakes that have been made. That doesn't translate into fault or blame, except among the very petty.

That's why I linked the <span style="font-style: italic">U.S.News & World Report</span> article, and the <span style="font-style: italic">NYT</span> article. They're both thoughtful analyses, without politcal axes to grind.

[Guest Orphanauto]

1st, to Dave moon, I love the Dr. evil piucture, haha, second, I disagree with the goverment when they say Detroit is building cars no one wants,( ok, I don't want one, but my newest car is 1963, anyway..) the fact is only 3% of Americans are debt free, 93% live paycheck to paycheck, less than 5% own thier home, the rest are home BUYERS ( meaning the bank owns it, and they are making payments, or the pay rent, plus most people have a car payment, credit cards, ectt... The main reason people are not buying new cars is because they are so deep in debt they can't afford a new car. I just bought a new car two weeks ago, ok, new to me, a 53 Kaiser Manhattan, as a collector, I can drive this around my little mayberry town,and the value goes up not down with time, but I am a bit bais, I would rather have a old car, but the point is Americans need to get debt free and pay cash, kinda like our grandparets did, thats why the had little houses ( ones that were in their budget ) and a car that was paid for, and no debt, The big three make great cars, were just broke, and the goverment has everyone scared of spending money with all these bailouts, which means high taxes soon, but thats just my view...

[Dandy Dave]

Check list....

House is paid for. Yep

Parts bought on credit cards are paid up when the Bill comes. Yep

Cars are owned free and clear. Yep

And here all this time thought I was doing everything wrong cause I'm still just a Poor old County boy... ...Dandy Dave!

[R W Burgess]

You're doing just fine, Dave. And, I'll bet you don't need to make even $47.00 an hour to be debt free. Maybe all auto workers are overpaid?

If not, then there are a lot of underpaid people in this country, especially teachers and law inforcement people.

[Guest BJM]

Dave,

OK I'll put this out there because I don't care. I make $15.29 per hour as a Legal Processor and I had to work 9 years to get to this average level. It is what it is. But how much does a 9 year veteran at UAW make, and where does that put him into the pay picture? He probably is making $30 to $40 per hour as a Journeyman. THAT I have no issue with, sort of - like a professional ball player if you can get get it - but it's out of whack and out of reality with most business models. You pay for talent, skills, decisions.

Take Wayne's example. Teachers and police officers. Both require college degrees or academy work, ongoing training. Police officers have a risk component. They choose these careers. But UAW workers should not get more then these folks.

Whether it's inherently relevant to pricing on the cars, the culture of division and strikes and us vs them that personifies the UAW and the American automotive culture has brought Detroit to it's knees.

And by gawd, they aren't about to give back what they have earned over the years. I'm just saying I would work for GM on the line making Buicks for $25 per hour with a 6% 401k match and health insurance with a co-pay. Sign me up! That plus no legacy costs would mean a small savings to the company and I think most unskilled workers would buy into that culture.

If I get laid off then the $10 per hour difference in pay would be in savings. But while I am working on the line I would be building in as much quality as I could knowing what was on the line - just like the Nissan, Honda, and Toyota plant workers in America.

But UAW workers know that if they get laid off they get put into a JOB BANK, getting paid whether they work or not. If management sais no to the Job Bank then the UAW strikes and brings a whole industry to it's knees. Nice!

That's the only business model that will work for the little 3.

[Dandy Dave]

I have often heard that.."It is not what you make, but what you do with it." Dandy Dave!

[JohnD1956]

Reading the articles Dave Moon linked to reveals that employee salary is not the real issue. Someone suggested it was; that no one wanted to buy the cars being produced by American Manufacturers. I think it is something else entirely. I think it is arrogance of the American car companies <span style="text-decoration: underline">after the sale </span>that has ruined their market share.

Cars are mechanical marvels, but all are prone to breakdown as parts are used. It's what happens when parts break down that makes me think twice about a brand. Here's two examples.

I bought a 02 Ford Ranger. After a few months I noticed the truck did not sit level. I also noticed the bed was on the frame crooked. Three visits to the selling dealer resulted in the final determination that; yes, it was out of kilter, but by less than 3/4 inch, thus it was within tolerance and they would not fix it. Can you imagine the idiots lost a return buyer for failure to put 3/4 inches of shim in the right rear corner of the bed!?

The Lacrosse currently has 32K and needs front rotors. The dealer says they can only turn them. I know turning them is only a short term fix, most likly designed to get them past the warranty stage. But does it really make sense to lose a future sale by shorting a current purchaser $100.00 ( assuming rotors can be had for $50.00 apeice) on a $26K car?

To me this is where the big three have gone wrong, not the designs of the car nor the quality of the workmanship building them. But too many people are very busy trying to figure out who to blame for their demise to wake up and see the reality that satisfactory service after the sale goes a long way to landing that next customer.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Fields</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks, it isn't just the auto industry that is in trouble, it is gthe entire North American manufacturing, mining and refining industries. 600,000 truck size containers come into Long Beach - Los Angeles every month. We need to get real. </div></div>

.......and don't you blame congress for that? They make the rules. I haven't seen 1 congress person yet out of a job. They are the one's killing this country!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

Let's get real on this topic...It all started with five letters N.A.F.T.A. NO AMERICAN FACTORIES TAKING APPLICATIONS. When NAFTA came into effect everything started going down hill from there.

I am a UAW member. Yes I make good money. Not as much as the big 3 vested employee makes, but still good money. The big 3 saw what was happening several years ago. That's when the 2 tiered pay system started. Everyone knew things couldn't go on the way they were. Call it 50 bucks an hour, or 75 bucks an hour. IT DOESN'T MATTER. When they speak of the wages being paid, they are speaking of people that are on tier 1. Go hire in one of the big 3 today, you won't make that big money everyone speaks of.

It's hard to feel sorry for the big 3. NOTHING happened to them, that they didn't let happen. Yes the retired employees do cost a great deal of money to maintain. All costs are up everywhere. Back in the "hayday" of auto business, nobody ever thought that these expenses would reach the amounts that they have become. As more of the "baby boomers" retire, these costs just keep getting bigger. Insurance has gone up 350% where I work. Just over the last 2 years. A family policy costs our company almost 1200 dollars a month. Just imagine what the figure is for all the retirees.

Think of GMs cost of retirement benefits as being your credit card. Things start out small, your thinking , hey I can pay this "no problem". The more of these little things you put on your credit card the higher the balance. Now your thinking holy cow, how am I ever going to pay this. The cost of these services keep rising. Say your interest rate keeps going up on your credit card as compared to todays rising costs. There's no way your going to keep up with payments now. You still have your mortgage, your utilities, and your food. Life is a business. People fail everyday, because of bad business.

I use to work 60 hours a week. I can't tell you how many people I saw go out and start spending while things were good. Only to walk around now and wonder how they're going to pay for all of it. That's bad business as a person, or as a company.

The big 3 are no different than everyday Joe Smoe. They spent it while it was good {as in paying higher wages} with no precautions for when things went bad.

Congress helped things go bad when they passed NAFTA. Now companies are running oversees to get things done cheap, to help make up for errors that would have corrected its self in time. But the work would have had to stay here for that to happen.

Now days the problem is compounded buy the labor costs that can be saved by getting immigrant workers. Think of cheap immigrant workers in the same way companies look at China or Mexico. I lost my job of 14 years to Mexico. It is finally starting to make full circle, and now people don't know what to do.

We will be feeling the effects of things that happened 40 years ago for the next 10 years or more.

Everyday more companies are lost to oversees buyers. Yes I work for the Japanese. I would rather be working for an American company. But before it's over, everything will be owned by a foreign company.

[keiser31]

Kent....You are SOOOOOOOO right!

[Guest palosfv3]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xprefix28truck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The big 3 are no different than everyday Joe Smoe. They spent it while it was good {as in paying higher wages} with no precautions for when things went bad.

Congress helped things go bad when they passed NAFTA. Now companies are running oversees to get things done cheap, to help make up for errors that would have corrected its self in time. But the work would have had to stay here for that to happen.

Now days the problem is compounded buy the labor costs that can be saved by getting immigrant workers. Think of cheap immigrant workers in the same way companies look at China or Mexico. I lost my job of 14 years to Mexico. It is finally starting to make full circle, and now people don't know what to do.

We will be feeling the effects of things that happened 40 years ago for the next 10 years or more.

Everyday more companies are lost to oversees buyers. Yes I work for the Japanese. I would rather be working for an American company. But before it's over, everything will be owned by a foreign company. </div></div>

To get an idea of where all of this is going, read the book "Wikinomics" By Don Tapscott and Anthony D, Williams , as well as " The Post American World" by Fareed Zakaria. We are in the midst of the greatest techological period of change ever expierienced by man. These books explain what the future holds for America and the rest of the world. The jobs went overseas because of the lower cost of labor but if technology didnt build the big boats to transport the raw materials and bring the finished products back here the change may not have happened. Technology is allowing the rest of the world to compete with us for everything . Eventually labor costs around the world will level out the next couple of decades and negate the advantage of the cheap labor but even they will be eventually be challenged by a machine and the same issues facing us today.

[ex98thdrill]

Who cares what a member of the UAW makes??

The automakers were selling cars up until gas prices went to $4 a gallon.

Five years ago gas was less than $2 a gallon, a year ago it was well over $4 a gallon, now it's hovering around $2 a gallon. When demand was lower, they cut down their supply of fuel so that they could keep their prices up.

Who's playing the games??

It isn't Ford, GM or Chrysler, it's Exxon Mobil, Chevron Texaco, etc.

When gas prices went nuts, the truckers (right Wayne?) had to raise their prices on shipping to be able to afford to deliver the goods. When those prices went up, they had to pass those costs on to the consumer.

When the cost of living goes up, and money in your pocket goes down, people quit travelling and spending extra money. With that in mind, if you don't spend extra money, then someone else doesn't have extra money in their pocket to pay their bills. From there the problem snowballs. If you aren't out driving around due to high gas prices, you aren't wearing out your car and you reduce the need to fix or replace your car with a new one.

I think the blame should be placed where the blame is due.... The oil companies!!

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Who's playing the games??

It isn't Ford, GM or Chrysler, it's Exxon Mobil, Chevron Texaco, etc.

</div></div>

Ex98, you're right.........

We're not all stupid like they want us to believe.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The automakers were selling cars up until gas prices went to $4 a gallon....

I think the blame should be placed where the blame is due.... The oil companies!!</div></div>

GM, Chrysler, and Ford have measured their net losses in the billion$ for at least the last 3 years, some much longer. Ford's financial picture actually improved dramatically as gas climbed from $3 to $4/gal, and remains relatively stable despite the current major recession, doing about as well as Honda/Toyota/et al. (<span style="font-style: italic">All of whom seem to be getting by OK, I wonder what they know?</span>)

There is only one reason for the "Big 3's" present problems, their past problems. Nobody wants to be driving next year's 1988 Somerset or 1993 Neon, and very few people have the automotive accumen to discern the difference between those cars and today's (unlike most of us). They're playing a "better safe than sorry' game with their automotive dollars. Who can blame them?

Oh yeah, we've been blaming the customer for decades now (...or the oil companies, or the unions, or the government, or foreign governments, or...). It can't be the fault of the car companies themselves! I forgot. How silly of me!

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nobody wants to be driving next year's 1988 Somerset or 1993 Neon, and very few people have the automotive accumen to discern the difference between those cars and today's (unlike most of us). </div></div>

Dave, you are truely unbelievable............

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Dave, you are truely unbelievable............ </div></div>

And I suppose your wife's hairdresser, your attorney, and the local pre-school teachers can ID a poorly made transaxle as easily as you or I?

I believe me.

[LINC400]

First, I don't see how anyone can make a blanket statement that foreign cars are better. One list shows Buick at the top with Mercedes at the bottom, The next list shows Toyota at the top with Chrysler at the bottom. Some lists even show the Mercury Marquis above average while the Crown Vic (identical car except for the grill) is below average. How is this possible? Do the Ford employees say "This one is a Marquis, so let's be very careful. The next 2 are Fords, so just slap 'em together any old way."? I don't think so.

It is because a lot of these lists are based on data from the general public who generally know nothing about cars. Some are even just downright stupid. People will leave their headlights on all night and then the car won't start. Drive over a nail, and then get a blowout. Bad, lousy quality American cars. They will never buy another one. Yet a Honda or Volkswagen can have the engine or transmission blow at less than a year old, and it must be ok because it IS a foreign car, and it WAS covered under warranty. I am not exaggerating. These are true stories from people I am acquainted with.

Then the media prints heresay with no basis in fact about subjects they know nothing about, like cars. They have deadlines, and can't be bothered with checking on things like facts. And the general public believes it as gospel truth. I have seen more than enough articles people found in magazines and newspapers on this website alone that are pure B.S. The one about antique cars being safety hazards on the road because some reporter found out safety inspections aren't required, and found ONE accident report involving an antique car comes to mind. More reports like this, and they will be bad mouthing antique cars just like they currently bad mouth the big 3.

Finally, what about CAFE? There was an actual size difference in cars before. You could get anything from a Chevette to an Eldorado or Fleetwood with tons of choices in between in 1976. The buyer of a '76 LeSabre would never give a second look to a '76 Toyota. Now with CAFE, how much difference is there between a Buick and Toyota? They are the same size, same price, look pretty much the same, so why not look at a Toyota? I was looking for a car in 2006. I wanted a large 2 door. Monte Carlo was the first choice. What was the second? Cadillac, Buick, Mercury, Chrysler, Lincoln, Dodge? Nope none of them even offer a 2 door. 2nd choice was a Toyota Solara. I would have never even looked at one if any of the American mfrs. offered a 2 door. Yet now everyone claims that there are too many different models, and that is another problem with the Big 3.

[poci1957]

Linc, I am with you on the consumer lists. I recall around 2001 Consumer Reports automotive list said a Mercury Sable was a recommended best buy but a Taurus was below average. THAT is some good data!

[Guest Skyking]

My niece always buy Saabs. She got rearended at a stop light and had to have the car repaired. While it was at the body shop she rented a Dodge Nitro, first American car she'd driven in years. She absolutely loved it. She liked it so much she was serious about buying a new one. Her husband looked it up in Consumers Report and didn't like the ratings they gave. He told her to stay away from it. I spoke with her Easter Sunday and she still wants one. This is just one case where CR turned someone away from buying an American car. This kind of stuff goes on throughtout this country daily. No wonder nobody buys from the B3.

[LINC400]

I don't understand why Honda and Toyota even have service departments. According to the media and people on the internet, these are cars that never ever need repairs, unlike American cars.

Now I have read that at the New York Auto Show, people were badmouthing GM and Chrysler, blaming them for their gas guzzling SUV's that caused us to be in the war with Iraq. Gee I thought ALL foreign cars just got 50 mpg. Now I find out that they use no gas or oil at all. And of course, neither does any other industry, just GM and Chrysler.

I really don't get all the bashing of American companies. Didn't "Made in USA" used to be something we took pride in? Now everybody buys everything foreign and mounts their little American flag on it. Makes sense.

[Guest Skyking]

Linc, welcome to the "new" world...........

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't understand why Honda and Toyota even have service departments. According to the media and people on the internet, these are cars that never ever need repairs, unlike American cars.

</div></div>

There's a difference.......when an American car breaks, it's a piece of crap. When a foreign car breaks, it's in for service.

[Dan Marx]

OK, I need to add a few thoughts. I grew up in a GM town, Flint, MI. While there are hard working mfg folks working in the factories, some need to responsible for their own actions. I remember an article in the Flint Journal where a worker was blaming GM because he had to file bankruptcy, at $400K (?) in debt. yep it was GM's fault because he was cut to 40 hours per week, when did GM say you were entitled to 65+ hours per week. I knew fork lift drivers who made $100K+ a year, but lived in a house they could afford on 40 hours per week. GM never said we would guarantee enough to buy a boat, very large house, motor home, four snow machines, antique cars other toys. And for thoise who bought a house they could not afford to begin with and lost it, TOUGH CRAP!!! YOU COMMITTED FRAUD. Oh well, this country will succeed, just wait and see.