collector car prices

[Bhigdog]

What's the general observation on collector car prices. In these tougher times do the prices seem to be heading up, down, or sideways. I don't think B.J. is a real world indicater. Any idea what's happening for real?......Bob

[Twitch]

Some are going up just a little, thankfully, others at a more rapid rate. I say thankfully to slow increases so that more people can enjoy something out of the past without getting a 2nd mortgage.

Unfortunately auctions DO have effect on where prices go. It is one part of a multi faceted number of reasons. Certain evaulators state-

Some guidelines:

Pricing sources: Auctions, sales reports, Value-Track® database, classifieds and the general market (contacts, shows, etc.).

Regional factors: There are some minor regional differences in prices, mostly for vehicles under $20,000 in value. Prices tend to be highest in the northeast and on the west coast. Very expensive cars operate in a global market.

Show cars: Perfect cars are pretty rare. These vehicles have been treated to a very expensive concours quality, frame-off, no expensed spared, nut & bolt restoration and do not get driven. They command higher prices than CCMR's standard #1 value.

Originality: All pricing assumes original, numbers matching engine. Deductions vary for engine swaps and can (but not always) be substantial -- be careful! Clean, totally original cars usually carry a premium relative to equivalent published prices. Original documentation is a big plus, especially on muscle cars. Having said that, there is a trend towards "upgrading" collector cars to make them drive and perform better than when they were new while retaining stock appearance. These vehicles generally suffer no value loss and in fact we have seen plenty of instances where they can bring more than a pure stock example.

High Option Vehicles: Car & trucks that are highly optioned and/or accessorized with items such as visors, continental kits, power seats, tilt wheel, etc. usually command a premium. Figure an extra 10% or so depending on equipment.

Imports: Pricing for imported cars is for US spec., left-hand drive unless not available in that configuration. Right-hand drive carries a price penalty on most cars, especially later models. Later standard-bodied RHD Rolls-Royce and Bentley models are particularly difficult to sell in the States.

Trucks: Small departures from originality do not affect the value of trucks as it does cars. Engine swaps or upgrades, mild customization in the form of wheels, tires, and accessories can enhance value. Make sure you use the Truck Equipment Table

Street Rods: Due to varying degrees of quality, parts, workmanship, etc., these are extremely difficult to accurately estimate market value. Many rods reflect the specific likes of the owner, and these don't always translate well to potential buyers. Monetarily, it is usually very difficult to recover the amount of money put into it. They are are strong and vibrant part of the marketplace, however.

About Auction Results: Auctions are just one part of the collector car marketplace. Many collectors get the impression that if they see a 1957 Chevy sell for $70,000 at a major auction, then theirs must be worth that, too. This is a misconception. Auctions often bring above market prices for very nice cars. The reasons are many: there's money in the audience, egos come into play, bidders can get caught in the moment, and sometimes the cars that show up to an auction such as Barrett-Jackson or Pebble Beach are just stunning, one-of-a-kind, mega-buck restorations.

Unfortunately, all is not always as it seems at an auction. Sometimes prices are bid up with "phantom" bidders, cars are declared sold that aren't, and even the bidding can be completely fabricated. In addition, dealers may bid among themselves soley to create the illusion of both interest and high values for specific cars.

This is from Collector Cer Market Review

[Mark Shaw]

Those who have extra money may find that now is a good time to get cars from others who are not in good financial shape. Distress sales of cars will always set prices a bit lower for cars that are yet to be restored, or cars that the current owner spent too much to restore.

I am no authority, but it seems that most collectors I know are retired and/or are in good shape financially. They already own their homes & have enough income to get by just fine. Therefore, their restored cars are not typically subject to distress sales.

Although a few distress sales may indicate prices are falling in the short term, the collector car market is typically not a short term investment vehicle. (Pardon the pun).

My 2 cents...

[Guest 1926pack]

I think I'm noticing more of a holding pattern right now. First, I don't think you should put much weight in auction prices. Many problems there. But, auction prices do have an effect on pricing, so I have noticed some people offering cars at outlandish prices. I have also noticed, however, that those cars are not selling. Follow them on Ebay. Some cars are offered month after month after month. Also, the economy has to have an effect. With gas prices soaring, along with food and many other items, the real estate bubble bursting, Wall Street tanking, etc, many people just don't have the disposable income and even those that do are scared.

So, right now it seems that sellers are not coming down in price and buyers are not coming up. Thus a holding pattern. But if the economy goes as far south as some predict, I think you will see prices come down substantially.

One more thought. Some people try to argue that collector cars are a good investment. Fortunately, I have noticed that most people are smart enough to ignore this sort of thing. I firmly believe that collecting cars should be a hobby done for fun, not an investment strategy.

[jscheib]

I hate to add this to the last post, but when you look at some of the auctions, some people with a lot of money, may consider the "investment" a "fun" thing to do. At ;east it comes across that way when the gavel falls.

John

[1935Packard]

I think it's a pretty good bet that the souring economy will dampen the rising market in collector car prices. The one exception may be cars with a lot of appeal to foreign buyers: If the dollar stays low, those cars will continue to be unusually cheap for foreign buyers and prices in dollars will remain high. That's my guess, at least.

[Chacheska]

I've seen prices all over the map but generally I've noticed the #3 or #4 cars selling for reasonable money as well as the sedans but the cream of the crop open classics selling are and always will sell at premium prices. As for the same cars being sold over and over, the vast majority are owned by dealers asking ridiculous prices for their cars. I've also noticed a general tendency for cars on eBay selling for more than they do from publications like Old Cars Weekly. That trend seems to be a reversal of what was happening 6 or 7 years ago when people were afraid to bid on cars listed on eBay. I've also noticed fewer full classics being offered by individuals and the majority falling into the hands of dealers. Some dealers seem to have dozens of high dollar cars at any given moment which makes me wonder if they actually own all those cars or are selling them on consignment. I watch pre-war classics and some pre-war non classics so my comment is based on those cars in particular. The market is moving farther and farther away from pre-war as the older generation that loves them passes on and the younger, internet crowd gravitates much more toward the 50's, 60's and 70's muscle cars and street rods who get there information and find their cars more on the internet than paper media. Just look at the cars listed in most auctions, particularly the smaller auctions. You hardly see any pre-war cars anymore.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1935Packard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it's a pretty good bet that the souring economy will dampen the rising market in collector car prices. The one exception may be cars with a lot of appeal to foreign buyers: If the dollar stays low, those cars will continue to be unusually cheap for foreign buyers and prices in dollars will remain high. That's my guess, at least. </div></div>

I disagree. I think that when stocks and the market starts to tank, people with money they want to park somewhere safe look to tangible assets: art, real estate, and yes, cars.

On the other hand, you may be right that a lot of these "new wealth" guys who have been driving up the prices on a lot of cars (particularly muscle cars), may have taken a big hit. I'd expect those prices to start to deflate and it looks like the Hemi boat has well and truly sailed.

And +1 on the European buyers. With the strength of the Euro, cars in the US are about 20% cheaper for them. Zounds!

[Twitch]

To anyone who is a true vintage or other auto enthusiast the value of their vehicles is of little consequence.

[Restorer32]

I hope Duesenbergs get cheap. I've always wanted one.

[Dandy Dave]

Like with anything in an "antique" catagory. The verybest will always command a high price.

The buyers, for the most part will be seasoned and will know what they are buying.

The "soso" stuff will be more negotialble with less, easy come, easy go, "Dumb Money" around.

I used to like to pick up a copy of Old Cars Weekly and look at all the cars from the 1900's thru 1930 for sale. That was back in the 70's and 80's. Now it seems that early stuff is not for sale as it once was. Of couse there were lots of VW Bugs still on the road then also. Dandy Dave!

[Chacheska]

To reply to Twitch ....... congratulations to you for having the kind of wealth where the value of your cars is insignificant. Be sure to call me when you're ready to sell. I expect to pay pennies on the dollar. As for me, I consider myself an enthusiast since I belong to several clubs, own several cars and spend a good amount of time reading about pre-war cars. However, I don't have the capital to fritter away without regard to present or future value. Considering the asking prices of certain marques I would consider it foolish for anyone to make a fairly significant investment in the tens of thousands, in certain cases, and not consider the value of that investment. Do you view your home the same way without regard to present or future value?

[R Walling]

Chacheska,

I'm with Twitch on this one. The pleasure that I derive from working on a restoration far outweighs the cost of the car.

I don't sell them, my only problem is where to keep them when I am done repairing them.

[Twitch]

I did not purchase my vehicles with the concept of them building equity, value or my wealth. I purchased what I wanted as an auto enthusiast not as an investor.

I did not purchase my home as a money generating entity either. I purchased it in order to give my family a decent, comfortable place to live and grow up in. It matters little what my house is valued at today since it is still my residence and I plan to live here till I die. Obviously I have no plans of obtaining wealth from it.

If anyone is actually worried about values please someone, name a vehicles that went DOWN in value during the past 5 years. By the time one attempts to research what car they think they should buy versus what they think they like in order to see it rise in value, it already did and they missed it.

If you're some kind of bean counter who purchases a daily driver only with the regard of it resale value in the future you are truly alone. Nobody does that.

There are auto enthusiasts and there are investor/collectors. But don't come to a show bragging about what your heap is worth. No one cares. Only the viewers that attend cruise ins and shows constantly ask "what's it worth?" because they have no concept to draw from. That's all they know.

Focusing on values, prices and evaluations has done more harm to the hobby than anything by making it appear to be the primary concern for owning a vintage car. Knowing that there is money to be made spurs some on invest large amounts in unnecessary "frame up" rebuilds and lavishing cosmetic details on cars for the reason of turning high profits at auction. Rebuilding cars to a high degree of perfection for the wrong reason- pure profit is the antithesis of the reason the purist does it- pure love.

Never heard of a race car driver say he got into racing becuase he wanted to become wealthy either.

Most people I know own cars for sentimental reasons and have attachments to them beyond any profiteering schemes. Many have been offer more than current markets value them and declined to sell. I am personally sickened by the constant addiction by some to artifically manipulate prices upward through auction maneuvers.

I'd like to see those who are only fixated on vintage cars' vaules to try another medium. What your broker didn't forecast the rise in gold and you didn't get in? So now you're hoping to make big bucks on hoarding some poor old car in your 10 year plan of building wealth? Don't buy a car for all the wrong reasons. You will never be happy.

[1935Packard]

Matt Harwood writes: "I disagree. I think that when stocks and the market starts to tank, people with money they want to park somewhere safe look to tangible assets: art, real estate, and yes, cars."

Well, I think people with money realize that none of these are safe places to park money. The art market has booms and dramatic busts, and the real estate market is dropping rapidly. With the exception of a few specific boom times, none of these tangible assets have been reliable investments over time. Better to go with the stock market, over time.

[Jonathan Miller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To anyone who is a true vintage or other auto enthusiast the value of their vehicles is of little consequence. </div></div>

That's true, but I have recently been priced out of buying the car that I truly desire. In the Classic Car crash of the early nineties here in the UK, cars returned to sensible levels, and it's only recently that top top quality vintage cars started making top dollar (Vauxhall 30/98 was £75kish 3 years ago, until recently it was approx. £130k). I'm hoping that cars again return to those sensible levels, so that I can buy the dirt track racer of my dreams

[MarkV]

Here in S. ca the economy is in the toilet and everywhere you look there are foreclosures and old cars for sale! It is a buyers market now for houses and old cars, because of the crappy economy, and people, do not want a gas guzzler (Lincolns are out!) and very few people have extra money to spend. The time to buy the old cars for 'investments' was in the 80's when there was a large wealth of original cars from the 60's and before sitting out in fields and in people's garages in good condition and when alot of the ones in yards were being scrapped for the metal in the late 80's (I have a book on this). Don't get into it for an investment, but, only if you enjoy it.

[Chacheska]

I'm intrigued by the mindset that I'm reading on some of these posts that you either have to buy a car for investment or buy them for the love of the hobby. Since when is it an either/or situation? I've never bought a car as an investment in my life and have never sold any of the 8 pre-wars I own yet I'm not going to pay top dollar for an overpriced car because I'm a purist with my head in the clouds and because I happen to love a particular car. There are certain cars I like and I'll bide my time, find one that's reasonable and pay a fair price for it so that if there ever comes a time I have to sell them someday I can hope to recoup my 'investment' and hopefully make something on them after I've enjoyed them for all the years I've owned them.

It's nice to think that you'll live in your house until you die or have your cars until you die but guess what? Life doesn't always work out the way you plan it. You can have any number of ailments befall you unexpectedly and have to sell your cars some day because you can't drive any more. You might lose your job and find yourself in a position where you need money. Let's see how far the love of the hobby gets you in those situations.

The term, "When you fail to plan you plan to fail" applies here. People who pay for ANY asset without regard to present or future values are in for a rude awakening if they need to liquidate for any reason. Reality check. Cars have a value as an asset. I know many people who live beyond their means because they don't care about the value of what they're buying. When they get in trouble they're the first ones to cry about it. I wonder how many people lost their houses in the current foreclosure fiasco because they thought they were going to live in them for the rest of their lives just like a lot of collector car owners lost their shirts when they bought cars in the late 80's and watched the values of their cars plummet when the market crashed in the early 90's. Some of those folks bought cars at hugely inflated prices because they loved a particular car and bought at the wrong time. That's what happens when people buy from the heart instead of the head.

Collecting old cars has to be one of the best hobbies anyone can choose to get into. I've enjoyed it immensely for the last 33 years. I also take comfort in knowing I bought my cars at the 'right' price and have watched them increase in value as I continue to enjoy them.

[Dandy Dave]

I agree that most of the folks in the housing problem are ones that have tried to live beyond their means. If they had enough brains to sit down and do the math ahead of time, they would not be in trouble now. The problem is that too many people want to live a rich life now instead of waiting to get there down the road after they have made it.

Some have gone out and bought cars and toys with the same additude.

Dandy Dave! ( Who hates to give to give my hard earned money to banks and credit card companys in the form of interest.) It pays to be a Cheep skate....

[Twitch]

What the heck should people wait for? They should get SOME car and start enjoying the fun of it all. No one can desire only one car and then pine for it because they can't afford it or spend more than it's worth just to have it. If anyone is waiting for a favorite car to actually decline in value you will never own it. Spending too much for any car is dumb and impulsive. Only the rich drunk guys at B & J auctions do that. There's legions of cars out there for under 10 grand. There is something that would appease anyone.

If you own 8 cars Chacheska you don't sound moved by them you sound clinical as though it's all business to you. Do you drive them on nice days and get nostalgia flashes? Do little kids ask you about them? Do you ever take them out in the light of day to a show or cruise in to share them with others? You actually sound like a guy getting ready to sell them all and make a klling at a time in life when most enthusiasts are really enjoying and appreciating them.

Sooner or later if we live long enough we all stop driving if we're smart. That has no effect on me now. Why should it? When that time comes it comes. I'm certainly not going to worry about something as minor as that.

There is absolutely no reason I will not live in my house until I die either. And just because I chose to live in this house doesn't mean I didn't buy other houses either. Sorry but I've got about 2 million dollars in houses in toadys' money. Does that classify me as a poor planner, Bud?

By the way I've killed cancer twice in 4 years and have had every possible side effect and hellishly negatively related secondary physical damage there is with more surgery to come. Yet when I can, I get out to the events and have my hands on my cars. Can't scare me. Still got my cars.

I bought my Z-28 new and restored it about a year ago and never was surprised about the cost frankly. I'm not broke. It was less than I figured actulaay. My 1950 Packard I bought more or less on a whim. When I was 1st diagnosed with cancer I began collecting car images off the web to pass the time. Then I thought about my Dad who sold post-war Packards and looked for a 48-50. Checked basics and found some for more and some for less but needing more work. I didn't want a perfect show car I couldn't drive. I found a Grade B car that I liked and bought it at a reasonable price in lesss than 10 days after I decided on a Packard. Please be so kind as to explain where I went wrong.

People that lost their houses should have known it was a little too good to be true when they only had to put $1,000 down. They basically lost rent money cause that had no equity through proper down payment in the houses in the 1st place! And "collectors" that purchased a slew of cars at the wrong time must be pretty poor collectors. Those who collect anything be it old watches or baseball cards know their market prices and are aware of trends. Why do I have to feel sorry for stupid people?

We're back to people buying vintage cars for the sake of turning a profit again. Why do I not feel sorry for them? Besides how did they lose their shirts? You mean they bought high ans sold low? Boy is that stupid. Why did they have to sell? No investor besides day traders gets into any investment except for the long haul. And no smart investor ties up all his money in one commodity. Were they too stupid to diversify? Or were these wiseguys figuring on turning a fast buck by artificailly driving up the value of their "collection"? I have no sympathy in any case for stupid investors in the car market or any other.

If they were pure enthusiasts they'd still own the cars and they would back up in value.

If anyone wants to gloat over the perceived value of their old car, knock yourself out. I don't care a bit about it other than for insurance purposes. In fact I hope prices stay the same or fall so more people can enjoy ownership. I don't want or need my my cars to go up in value.

[Chacheska]

There are pros and cons to any situation. If car values go up that means cars are worth more. If they go down that's great,too, because that means cars can be bought at a fairer price by people who couldn't ordinarily afford them and that helps the hobby.

I suggest you quit trying to psychoanalyze, me twitch. You're not very good at it. By the way, I'm not your 'bud', pal. Maybe bragging about your 2 million and not caring about car values puts you in the "more money than brains" category. At the very least it makes you sound arrogant. The only way I'll ever sell my cars is if I either can't drive them any more or go blind first. Since I have Glaucoma and have already lost some sight that's a real possibility for me. I think I've clarified my position. Anyone who knows me personally knows how I feel about old cars and I don't have to justify that to you or anyone else.

I drove my 1931 Cadillac 1,263 home after I bought it. Can you claim the same feat? I'm guessing not. Does that constitute enough 'daylight' driving for you? That was one of the best experiences I've ever had. Everywhere I stopped I had people come over to me with a kind word or comment about the car. I get the best reaction from kids. They don't have many opportunities to see pre-war cars out on the street much these days. They're more animated than the adults and get excited when they see something old and unusual drive by.

No, I don't take my cars to shows because I tried that once and some people have nothing better to do than focus on the car's flaws rather than enjoy the fact they're seeing a car they wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to see. It's much more enjoyable to drive around local neighborhoods and give people the opportunity to see and hear an old car drive by. The waves and thumbs-up are much more enjoyable than negatives comments from some people who expect every car at a car show to be a #1 show car.

Car values have been, are and always will be a factor in the hobby whether you like it or not just like any other asset or commodity. Whether you choose to see that or not is your prerogative. I feel the commercial sellers who drive up prices by buying and selling between themselves and inflate prices to line their pockets do nothing but harm the hobby. But, like anything else, trends are cyclical. Remember the late 80's? The same thing happened. Cars reached ridiculous levels by 1989. Within a couple of years the old car market crashed and that gave hobbyists like me an opportunity to buy cars at much more reasonable price. Seems like the roller coaster is approaching the top again.

Zoom Zoom Zoom

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What the heck should people wait for? </div></div>

If someone does not have the finances, or a secure future, or storage for that matter, then...Yes they will have to wait!

The world of old cars runs on money like it or not.

Why morgage a toy even for 10 grand or less. If you don't have it, you probably can't afford it anyway.

It is a toy and not a neccesity. No reason to fund the banker's golf -N- garden party anymore than you have to.

OK, so you have 2 million in property. How much do you own? How much does the Bank own? I have come to realize that a Million isn't all that much today. Especially when it comes to real estate.

Dandy Dave! (Who is dept free and happy about it! )

[HarryJ]

I must say that reading these comments sums up the supply/demand situation in the collector car market from almost every angle. For me, I don,t consider any of my cars (all pre war) to be investments. I am upside down in all except one. Cars like most collectables (art, furniture, coins, stamps,etc.) are somewhat illiquid if you must have the money now. I am presently in the market for another car and have been shopping arround, so these comments are enlightening. Recently, I went to a major auction as a car I was interested in was up for sale. I had set a price that I was willing to pay; it went for way over that. I studied the car as carefully as I could before it went on the block. For about 30 minutes prior to it's time on the block I sat arround on a wall nearby the staging area and noticed the people who were looking at the car. The owner(a dealer) stood by the car. Several of his friends came up and talked and joked arround with him. Turns out, when I was out on the bidding floor these people were bidding. The price was bid to a level way above what a car like this was worth. It was counted as a sale; however, it sold to one of the dealers friends. So I am still in the market.

[Chacheska]

Good for you, Harry. You're a smart man. You set a price in your head based on what you saw, stuck to it and didn't get caught up in 'auction fever' just because you wanted that particular car. Value can be subjective to a degree. I've never trusted auctions. You never know who's shill bidding on someone's behalf. I've been to a few of the big auctions as an observer but will never buy from one. I'd consider it if it were a small auction but the bottom line would still be to bid based on what price I felt the car was worth. The best way to buy an old collectible car is from a fellow hobbyist whenever possible. Those of us in the hobby for the love of collecting and enjoying cars are much more apt to be reasonable and fair when it comes to selling cars. There are exceptions but that's generally the rule. Certain parts of the country are better in terms of finding cars at more favorable price. The east and west coasts tend to be the worst with the midwest being the best.

If you belong to a car club take some time to call other members in the club who own a car you'd be interested in buying. Talk to that person and mention you'd be interested in their car if they ever decide to sell. I've done that for years and can tell you from experience that the vast majority of people who belong to clubs and list their phone numbers are very nice people to talk to. At the very least you'll get to converse with a fellow hobbyist and at best you might find the car you've been looking for at a reasonable price. Most people I know don't seem to take that approach but it's one of the best reasons to join a car club and a great way to meet other people in the hobby that have the same interest you do.

Shill bidding at auctions and sellers buying back their own cars does nothing but inflate prices. Same goes for a lot of the commercial dealers you see selling cars in publications like Old Cars Weekly. When people who own old cars hear or see auction results and ads like that they start to think the car sitting in their driveway is worth more than they though it was and the escalation starts like it did in the 80's but like the song Spinning Wheel, from the band Blood Sweat & Tears, goes, "What goes up must come down". It's cyclical.

My best suggestion to anyone looking for a car is call your fellow members. I bought my 1932 Buick by knowing the guy who had the car and calling him up out of the blue. I remember when he bought it back in 1993 and kept his number. When I asked if he was thinking about selling the car he said, "You know, I actually have been thinking about selling it". We corresponded back and forth via e-mail and three months later it was in my garage. It's always best to get a heads up on a car that hasn't hit the market yet. You can talk to and negotiate with the seller without having anyone else looking at the car and breathing down your neck. Try it. You won't be sorry.

Ciao for now!

[Twitch]

Hey Dandy Dave a lot of folks go to see cars at cruise ins or shows and think they don't have ebough money to own a vintage car. I'm talking people thinking most are in the $30,000+ range. They're delighted to find that there are a lot of interesting old treasures out there for less than $15 or even $10,000, well within their budget. I've talked to a lot of people who come by and had the idea that everything is in the 57 Chevy range of $40,000 or even more. When they find out they could get a decent Hudson, Nash, Stude or many others for 10-15K they are amazed. Whats' wrong with a really nice 54 Chevy for $10,000? I tell them my Packard is worth about 15 grand to me and they had some idea it shoulda been like 30!

Go figure. There's people that just don't know but are interested to a great degree. I tell them to begin searching and be patient that they don't have to spend a lot. So why does that make be such a bad guy? No one, no one has ever asked, "how much money can I make and how fast by turning old carsfor profit?"

Certainly we aren't in some mode where the newcomer that buys a 41 Nash is looked down upon by the character that has several cars which he's had for many years or the fact that a Nash doesn't measure up with his Mormons, Oaklands, Auburns and such.

And then this other joker questions my future finances and has the nerve to tell me I'm bragging when I tell him about my housing worth? WTF? And for your satisfaction one house is free and clear bought for $75,000 in 1980- worth $625,000 now. Another house inherited that was free and clear was just sold at $500,000. 3rd place- owe $128,000- worth $800,000.

So please tell me why I care if one of my cars went up $2,000 in perceived evaluation last year?

I still maintain that the majority of people became involved with cars as a hobby because they enjoy cars- be they hot rods, classics or Jap tuner cars- not because they perceived them as a way to riches. Any upward valuation is completely secondary from the pleasure they derive from interacting with their cars.

I have never come across any hobbyist that blatantly braggs about the value of their cars to others. How he bought them cheap but now they're valuable "investments." I've never heard a load like that till now. I'm sure that even someone as jaded as that now did NOT buy their 1st vehicle as a cornerstone to some big time retirement investment scheme. They bought the car cause they liked the car not because 20 years later it would possibly be worth more.

The vast majority didn't do that before and they're not doing it now.

[Bhigdog]

I never thought by starting this thread folks would be getting their hackles up. I was just wondering what the general perception of the market was.

As far as Collecting vs investment goes I really do beleive that most car owners out there are enjoying their cars. That said, a collector car is an asset, just like anything else you own. I'm not in this for the money, I just like restoring old cars, but it's still very much preferable to see my assets appreciate rather than depreciate.....Bob

[old gto]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a collector car is an asset, just like anything else you own. I'm not in this for the money, I just like restoring old cars, but it's still very much preferable to see my assets appreciate rather than depreciate..... </div></div> <span style="color: #3333FF">My thoughts exactly. And I would add that the definition of "success" is when your total assets, when liquidated, are higher than your liabilities, when paid.

I`d also add.....(without flaming any post in particular}, the perception of "value", or "worth". I see signs all over my town, especially for real estate, "Will sell for $165,000....worth $230,000". Where does this person figure it is worth $230,000 if no one is willing to pay that? Value, or worth, is what someone would pay for it. NOBODY sells ANYTHING for less than it is worth. It is only worth what it will sell for.

If I bought a car years ago, what I paid is what it was worth then. What someone would pay for it now is what I gained, or lost. I may THINK it is worth a lot more, but if nobody is willing to give me that price, it is not WORTH that price, no matter what I say.</span>

[Bhigdog]

That logic is applied to real estate in my area. When a property changes hands it's tax assesment is altered to reflect the purchase price. So when someone buys a house assessed at, say $100K, for $200K the real estate taxes are doubled for the new owner. They usually howl like Hell and try to say the house is only worth 100K but the assessor just smiles and says it's worth $200k because that's what you just paid. No one has won an appeal yet.........Bob

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tell them my Packard is worth about 15 grand to me and they had some idea it shoulda been like 30!

</div></div>

YES YES! Everyone thinks my '38 "oughta be worth a good bit hang onto that" and I respond "ahhh manheim gold says about 4 grand actually in the shape it's in!!! if it was restored I'd ask somewhere between 10 and 20 but it doesn't matter because I'm NEVER selling it!"

That and my '87 Cougar 20th anniversary edition. One of 5000 but that hardly helps...probably worth between $1500 and 2000 and its in very good shape. I don't love them for what they could bring me monetarily by me parting company with them. I love them for what they are and for the joy they bring me due to NOT parting company with them.

[Guest cardinal905]

A newbie checks in.-- I just got into this hobby in July of last year at 45 years of age. I was sitting at the lake reading the local paper and saw a 1962 Corvair convertible advertized for 7k. Have always wanted a car built the year I was born, so bought it on a whim for 6500.00. Then a freind said I should get spares, I agreed and he took me to a collector that had Corvair stuff---ended up buying a basket case 1916 Maxwell and a parts car. I took his word for the value of both and later found out I paid too much---guess what, I dont give a rats ass !! I love this newfound hobby and MOST of the people I have met. I plan on driving all the cars I own, and cant wait for the next car.

[R Walling]

On cost, value and loss;

Car restoring to me is something to do to keep me happy, healthy and active.

When I have completed a car, there is a cost. There is a value. And there is pleasure.

The cost is what ever I spent on my entertainment

The value (to others) is what they would pay, to make me sell it.

There is no loss in this venture; it is only the cost of pleasure and health.

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roger Walling</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On cost, value and loss;

Car restoring to me is something to do to keep me happy, healthy and active.

When I have completed a car, there is a cost. There is a value. And there is pleasure.

The cost is what ever I spent on my entertainment

The value (to others) is what they would pay, to make me sell it.

There is no loss in this venture; it is only the cost of pleasure and health.

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Quoted for truth.

[Dandy Dave]

If you have the kind of health problems you say you have I would be thinking about unloading at least one piece of property to pay up the morgage on another just to get out from under. Take some of the money and enjoy it as none of us are here forever. I have heard that there is a lot more money in California than there is here and housing costs more.

I live in a Depressed area in the North East. I'm here because I was born and grew up here, and I have seen agriculture, which was once viberant in this area, just fall apart and become almost nonexsistant in the last 20 to 30 years. I am thinking of moving out and going south where it is warmer and there are lots of lawn mowers and tractors to fix.

There is not a better feeling in the world than to be dept free. Try it, you will like it. A lot of people here could not afford $10,000 for a car that will only be a toy. It is a reality check on the economy. I am fortunet that I am self-employed and have the ability to make an OK living while many here do not have the skills. Industry has also been chased out of here. Seems much of the area has turned to low paying service industry jobs. I have never been to California, but from what I have gathered from the news, a lot of the folks out there are in economic trouble also.

The price of cars is whatever the market will bear in the area that you are in. The economic differences in your area, vs mine, are miles apart.

Dandy Dave!

[HarryJ]

Chacheska....Yes, I have been contacting collectors who own cars like I am looking for. I have had some wonderful conversations, and missed one or two deals. Auctions are not bad if you know what you are doing. I must say know the ins and outs of the type of car you are buying; know where to look for its weak points. A case in point concerns a '25 Franklin I bought at auction some years ago. I've always had a liking for this make. I had not noticed it prior to it's coming on the block. From what I could see it was a fairly good looking car. The car drove onto the auction block under it's own power and seemed to run fairly well. The bidding stalled out just under 10K; I hesitated just long enough to hear "going once etc" and bid. Suddenly I realized I needed to join the H.H. Franklin Club (Great Organization!!!). When the car was shipped to me some weeks later, I became aware of a weak point to check on these vehicles, the frames as some of you might be aware are wooden. The one I had purchased had a severly rotted frame which was barely held together with some patches just good enough to get it across the block. The car has since found a good home and new frame. I say know what to look for even when buying from an honest collector. By the way, to stay within the subject matter of this thread, I feel collector car prices will stall and fall soon.

[Chacheska]

Harry, I agree auctions can be an O.K. place to buy a car but nothing beats having the luxury of time to look a car over. Your Franklin experience proves that point. You're absolutely right about knowing as much about the car you're going to look at as possible before getting to wherever you're going to buy the car. I'll call other members with similar cars to the one I'm going to see and ask them what to watch out for. I also try to get pictures of the engine compartment from manuals as well as serial and engine number locations to see if it's a numbers matching car which will also affect the value.

I'm much more of a one on one buyer. People act and react differently when there are greater numbers of them. Testosterone levels rise and people will sometimes bid an item up simply because they don't want someone beating them. eBay has flourished on that premise. Cooler heads prevail with just two people negotiating a price.

I hope you're right about the "stall & fall" prediction. When prices tanked in the early 90's I took advantage of the drop and bought most of the classics I currently own. It was a great buying opportunity that lasted for about 7 years before prices started rising. Rising oil/gas prices and the poor housing market will certainly hurt a lot of people's pocketbooks. The last time the bottom fell out of the housing market in 1990 the old car market tanked with it. It will be interesting to see if the combination of the poor housing market, oil prices and possible deeper concerns with the stability of banks that lend money coupled with other economic downturns have the same affect on the car market this time. Sure wish I had some gold jewelry laying around the house!

[Chacheska]

Harry, I agree auctions can be an O.K. place to buy a car but nothing beats having the luxury of time to look a car over. Your Franklin experience proves that point. You're absolutely right about knowing as much about the car you're going to look at as possible before getting to wherever you're going to buy the car. I'll call other members with similar cars to the one I'm going to see and ask them what to watch out for. I also try to get pictures of the engine compartment from manuals as well as serial and engine number locations to see if it's a numbers matching car which will also affect the value.

I'm much more of a one on one buyer. People act and react differently when there are greater numbers of them. Testosterone levels rise and people will sometimes bid an item up simply because they don't want someone beating them. eBay has flourished on that premise. Cooler heads prevail with just two people negotiating a price.

I hope you're right about the "stall & fall" prediction. When prices tanked in the early 90's I took advantage of the drop and bought most of the classics I currently own. It was a great buying opportunity that lasted for about 7 years before prices started rising. Rising oil/gas prices and the poor housing market will certainly hurt a lot of people's pocketbooks. The last time the bottom fell out of the housing market in 1990 the old car market tanked with it. It will be interesting to see if the combination of the poor housing market, oil prices and possible deeper concerns with the stability of banks that lend money coupled with other economic downturns have the same affect on the car market this time. Sure wish I had some gold jewelry laying around the house!

[Matt Harwood]

I'm going to be so upside down on my Century to even think of it as any kind of investment would be idiocy. But I consider the time and money invested as a kind of admission fee to the amusement park. You pay your money, you ride the rides and you have fun. You don't expect to walk out of there with a cheap teddy bear that will appreciate in value.

Blue chip cars will always have value, and their values are steady relative to the rest of the market. 300SL Mercedes Gullwings are an example. They've always hovered around the $300-400K mark, and have done so for a decade. They're appreciating now (one just sold for over $700K, but that was probably an anomaly), but buying one can't be considered an "investment" unless you're just looking to park some money somewhere for a while. They don't have huge jumps, but it won't depreciate even if you drive it. The big Classics also hold their values, and the really top-line #1 cars often appreciate if they are kept in #1 condition. That's rare, however.

On the other hand, there are still bargains. You can get a lot of car for your money and still have a lot of fun. I wrote this a while ago:

Five Great Ways to Get Into the Old Car Hobby

And often, as many have said, it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time. For instance, something I consider an outrageous bargain was the Duesenberg J Dual Cowl Phaeton that sold at Barrett-Jackson this year for $1 million. Yeah, a lot of money, more than I'll ever have to spend on a car, but for a freshly restored open Duesenberg? Zounds! I understand that the owner was heartbroken--he was expecting twice that, and the car was probably worth at least 50% more than that. Duesenbergs don't belong at Barrett-Jackson, so that's where I'd go to buy one.

Do it for fun, but if you're not at least tangentially aware of the costs involved, you will get burned sooner or later. It is stupid to over-pay for anything, even something you expect to keep forever, because nobody knows what the future holds. I plan to stay in my current house forever, but I also know that I can probably double its value in 5 years by renovating it, and if I ever need that money, it's there. Fortunately, old cars are a reasonably stable place to park your money and have fun with it at the same time (unless you bought a $1,000,000 Hemi, then you're totally screwed).

I'm counting on gas prices hurting the value of old cars and that younger buyers will lose interest in the cars of the '30s. More for me!

[Matt Harwood]

I'm going to be so upside down on my Century to even think of it as any kind of investment would be idiocy. But I consider the time and money invested as a kind of admission fee to the amusement park. You pay your money, you ride the rides and you have fun. You don't expect to walk out of there with a cheap teddy bear that will appreciate in value.

Blue chip cars will always have value, and their values are steady relative to the rest of the market. 300SL Mercedes Gullwings are an example. They've always hovered around the $300-400K mark, and have done so for a decade. They're appreciating now (one just sold for over $700K, but that was probably an anomaly), but buying one can't be considered an "investment" unless you're just looking to park some money somewhere for a while. They don't have huge jumps, but it won't depreciate even if you drive it. The big Classics also hold their values, and the really top-line #1 cars often appreciate if they are kept in #1 condition. That's rare, however.

On the other hand, there are still bargains. You can get a lot of car for your money and still have a lot of fun. I wrote this a while ago:

Five Great Ways to Get Into the Old Car Hobby

And often, as many have said, it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time. For instance, something I consider an outrageous bargain was the Duesenberg J Dual Cowl Phaeton that sold at Barrett-Jackson this year for $1 million. Yeah, a lot of money, more than I'll ever have to spend on a car, but for a freshly restored open Duesenberg? Zounds! I understand that the owner was heartbroken--he was expecting twice that, and the car was probably worth at least 50% more than that. Duesenbergs don't belong at Barrett-Jackson, so that's where I'd go to buy one.

Do it for fun, but if you're not at least tangentially aware of the costs involved, you will get burned sooner or later. It is stupid to over-pay for anything, even something you expect to keep forever, because nobody knows what the future holds. I plan to stay in my current house forever, but I also know that I can probably double its value in 5 years by renovating it, and if I ever need that money, it's there. Fortunately, old cars are a reasonably stable place to park your money and have fun with it at the same time (unless you bought a $1,000,000 Hemi, then you're totally screwed).

I'm counting on gas prices hurting the value of old cars and that younger buyers will lose interest in the cars of the '30s. More for me!

[HarryJ]

Matt....Interesting comment about the open Dusenberg. These cars are ones you really have to know. A friend of mine makes the comment about Derham Touristers "This is one of the seven survivors of the three they built"! The provenance of a lot of these cars is quite mixed up. Most of the "J" Dusenbergs built were sedans; but, unfortunately few survive today as they have been converted to open cars. On top of this many cars have been cobbled up from fabricated parts and other parts from here and there. Was it a deal; only A Dusenberg expert would know.

[HarryJ]

Matt....Interesting comment about the open Dusenberg. These cars are ones you really have to know. A friend of mine makes the comment about Derham Touristers "This is one of the seven survivors of the three they built"! The provenance of a lot of these cars is quite mixed up. Most of the "J" Dusenbergs built were sedans; but, unfortunately few survive today as they have been converted to open cars. On top of this many cars have been cobbled up from fabricated parts and other parts from here and there. Was it a deal; only A Dusenberg expert would know.