Car Hobby Past and Future == Your OPINION

[alsancle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paul Dobbin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a multiple car owner, I welcome the guy who thinks I have to many cars. If he likes one more than I do, he can buy it. The measure of like is expresssed in dollars.

When I put a high price on it, it mean I like it a lot,

when you put a low offer on it, it means you don't like it as much as I do. If we can agree, we're both happy.

Every time I ask the price of a collector car I make a value judgement that determines ownership.

I like the system and I really like my cars. Now I know that sometime soon I'll see another car that might make

reorganize my likes and dislikes and result in a lower

price on one to make room for the next love of my life.

Pretty good system, Huh? </div></div>

This is well put and exactly what I was thinking the other day. The market is a beautiful thing. I always get a kick out of the inevitable "guy with 4 cars is the bad guy" post and it's close cousin the "rich guys are hiding all the cars" post. Both show an admirable lack of understanding for how world works. Decoded what it means is somebody else should work hard and then hand their car(s) over to somebody who doesn't share their work ethic.

[1937hd45]

Excellent point, and I'll add my reply to your other thread. I can't stand revisionist history, mass produced "collectables" or "antiques" that were so ordained and manufactored in my lifetime. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DriveAG2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not think that my comments would lead to political discussions or a re-fighting the war that ended (or so we think) 142 years ago.

Anyway; I gave a succinct definition of what my old car hobby is and a policy (not law) that would allow more people to participate.

The question that should be asked in this thread now is: <span style="font-weight: bold">What is your AACA related hobby? </span>

It is hard to discuss or argue about a topic in an intelligent manner until we have a clear understanding of what each other’s perceptions are. </div></div>

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I did not think that my comments would lead to political discussions or a re-fighting the war that ended (or so we think) 142 years ago. </div></div>

My comment was mainly aimed at Wayne. I'm a Civil War history "nut". The U.S. Constitution allows for states to voluntary join the Union. Therefore if you volunteer to join you so, you so be able to "un-join" if wished. There is nothing stating that once you're part of the Union, you can't leave. The Federal government over stepped it's authority. Today, the Federal government needs to look at the history and learn from the mistakes and not repeat them.

Enough on that before this thread gets pulled.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyway; I gave a succinct definition of what my old car hobby is and a policy (not law) that would allow more people to participate.</div></div>

I agree with you on "I consider the hobby as persons working on their cars, helping others work on others' cars, and resurrecting antique vehicles or keeping them alive so that they can be driven to shows where the rest of us can appreciate their dedication and work as well as gain insight into a particular slice of history." But as to who can own what and how many cars should have nothing to do with it except who can afford them and store them. The market place controls that and you policy is one that neither you nor a democratic government can enforce. Also, you never mentioned anything about the hobby other than "hands-on" restoration and driving.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The question that should be asked in this thread now is: What is your AACA related hobby?</div></div>

My "AACA related hobby" is as follows:

webmaster for 2 AACA regions and 10 chapters (hardest part of the chapter sites is getting them to get the info to me).

Editor of a typically 16 page monthly newsletter for 1 region.

AACA Judge. The hobby within a hobby where you pay (for judge's breakfast which is mandatory to attend) to get the privilege of working during the car show instead of getting to wander around an look at all the cars. As a judge I take the time to look at AACA members cars and help them to avoid costly point deduction over little things they may have missed, before they attempt a national meet.

Participate on the Discussion forum to try to help answer questions when I can. Also to point out issues I see that need attention. And I like to stay in touch with many of my friends who also belong to the forum. BTW, in 2004, it was mentioned here that it would be nice to have some way of ID-ing a fellow DFer at a show. The ideas of hats and t-shirts were suggested but the problem was $$ of production and it wasn't something national was really looking at doing. I designed a logo for the DF and produce the buttons. (do a search for DFer buttons) sell them at basically my cost. It the moment, I may even be losing money as I'm not sure what the new USPS mail rules and rates have done as I have not shipped any out since the rate change. I may need it increase it to cover the cost of the button, mailer and current postage rate.

I'm working on the 2008 AACA Sentimental Tour as Tour Book, all graphics, and ad design person. Also chairman and main worker for on of the days' routes.

I have 1 car that is an AACA HPOF car and working on restoring 2 others while maintaining a house and working 40+ hours a week building race cars. Average night's sleep about 4-5 hours. Oh forgot the girlfriend.. she gets to see me about 4-8 hours throughout the week.

So you tell me what is my hobby? Choices amount to AACA/old cars, work, or sleep.

[R W Burgess]

Good response David. I knew you were messing with me. And, please raise your DFer Button rates. For what you have done for the AACA, you should certainly not have to lose money.

Wayne

[novaman]

I will adjust the rates when I find out the current rate for them. I never meant the buttons to be a money maker. I wanted to do it for the DF members, my way for contributing to the promotion of the DF. The few cents on each button that happens to be made if that the case, just offsets the cost of my purchasing the equipment to make them, and the power for the computer and ink to print them. I have designed and sold buttons for another auto club's tour about 3 years ago( they had seen the DFer buttons). That helped offset a good percentage of the equipment cost.

Maybe the concept of putting your time and effort into something you believe in and not expecting a reward for it is too complicated for some people to comprehend. Personally the world would be much better off if more people felt this way.

[Ron Green]

Quote: “I did not think that my comments would lead to political discussions or a re-fighting the war that ended (or so we think) 142 years ago.”

The war didn’t end around here as it is still fought every day, at least by the tourists. Our region is having a tour today close to the battlefields. I’ll say a prayer on the way through for both the north and south.

[old gto]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the concept of putting your time and effort into something you believe in and not expecting a reward for it is too complicated for some people to comprehend.</div></div> <span style="color: #3333FF">Right. I also thought that the personal satisfaction one gets WAS the reward, LOL! </span>

[jeff_a]

Unfortunately, a lot of antique cars are being remanufactured into something else, and it's not good for the antique car hobby. I looked at a photo-posting website last week and typed-in "antique car". What showed up was a screen with 40 twenties and thirties cars with chrome-plated, supercharged SBC engines sticking up out of the hood ( actually, no hoods in this case ). Is that what's going to happen to all the really interesting antique cars? It's one thing to fix-up old cars -- but is getting rid of the hood, motor, front axle, rear axle, brakes, wheels, etc. adding to the car...or taking away? What I'm seeing lately are cases where people are buying "Classics" and turning them into "cars". Buying a Pierce-Arrow or a Packard, removing everything but the frame and body, planning on something "awesome", and then realizing that it's not going to work and selling the remains to someone else. Seems like a waste, IMO.

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There is no way cars that are now reaching the 25 year milestone could ever be restored in the same sense that the cars most of us appreciate can. For any of the survivors to exist in the future (near and distant) they'll need to be preserved NOW!

It may not seem like something that a lot of people should care about, helping to keep a preserved cadre of Subaru Brats and Merkurs around. But these cars provide context for the cars of the 1900-1970 era, and it is just not our place to dictate to people decades from now that there's need of interest in certain cars but not others. If there's a giant, discontinuous hole in the cars we leave behind the whole hobby becomes a questionable enterprise. In terms of leaving behind a hobby that has legs for future generations I think it's imperitive for those who appreciate '80s and '90s cars to have an incentive and a forum for preserving them, now and decades from now.

We can either be the arrogant b@st@rds who shelved those cars or the keepers of a flame for them, however dim <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> presume it to be.

</div></div>

I personally wonder about this all the time. Now granted there's the rolling 25 year rule but I wonder how many people will actually take interest. As you say "not the finest point in automotive history". However, my other car, the 1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, is in good enough shape that I plan on never getting rid of it either. Personally I like everything about the car. So count me into the crowd whos keeping the flame even if it may be dim. Someday that WILL be a very old car, it WILL look far different than anything on the road, and highly desirable or not it will be everything an old car is, and thats what I look forward to.

Honestly I dont think the 80s (at least not the early 80s) will be quite ignored. Not to toot my own horn but the 83-88 cougars/tbirds were far more advanced styling-wise, they completely flew in the face of the Kleenex-box GM G-bodies and Chrysler K-Cars and the like. And they did it well too. I love the looks of em. However I CANT help but admit I have a soft spot for the G-bodies. They are still pretty cool, esp the top-end ones like the revival of the Cutlass 4-4-2 which had the special shifters too, not just an appearance package!!! The Monte SS's had the 350 not just a 305, Buick obviously the Grand National and GNX, furthermore Regal T Types which were just as fast as GNs amazingly but can be had for much less $$ right now. (I wonder about the future though theyre actually RARER than GNs so who knows). Think about the GNX though. Didnt that beat the <span style="font-weight: bold">Porsche 911</span> of the time in the 1/4 or something? THAT is nothing short of awesome. Just try and tell me the 80s sucked car-wise.

And of course the Camaros and Firebirds and Corvettes, the former two of which had a bunch of different variations and anniversary editions etc

Along the lines of FoMoCo the Thunderbird Turbo Coupe is the star in the line of cars Im representing, all the variations of the 5-liter mustangs, etc etc

I mean from the mid 80s on it was back on the upslope for speed, power sportiness, more interesting cars in general. Gas got cheap again, hence the performance upgrade. 1974-81/2/3 ish seems to be the "dark period". I dunno but somehow I've got a good feeling that once theyre old enough that the rides of the MTV decade will be quite rampant throughout shows and cruise-ins all over this country, except the owners that put a period-correct radio on the air cleaner might be blasting Motley Crue's "Kickstart My Heart" instead of the Beach Boys' "409" (personally i love both of those tunes!!!)

[imported_buick5563]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZondaC12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I mean from the mid 80s on it was back on the upslope for speed, power sportiness, more interesting cars in general. Gas got cheap again, hence the performance upgrade. 1974-81/2/3 ish seems to be the "dark period". I dunno but somehow I've got a good feeling that once theyre old enough that the rides of the MTV decade will be quite rampant throughout shows and cruise-ins all over this country, except the owners that put a period-correct radio on the air cleaner might be blasting Motley Crue's "Kickstart My Heart" instead of the Beach Boys' "409" (personally i love both of those tunes!!!) </div></div>

Good point Paul,

Mike

[DennyZ]

Just today I drove my "new" '41 Packard Clipper that I'm working on, to a car dealership to obtain an "out of state" inspection so I could title it in Ohio (bought in in Indiana). I local guy came running up to get a better look at what I had done so far in restoring the beast, and he said, "Wow, look at those lines...that would make a great hot rod!..." Why do these fools think that rodding a classic is an improvement on prefection???

[Guest rickomo1]

My two cents is i work on my cars restoring with a minimum amount of modifications, i drive them,show them (no judging) enjoy them and learn every day i do. my lastest buy was a 42 lincoln zephyr sedan heading for scrap and given 2 years it will be a driver. Also i get quite a bit of help from some younger people (25years old) as am 52 and probably only have 30 more years to build more.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think about the GNX though. Didnt that beat the Porsche 911 of the time in the 1/4 or something? THAT is nothing short of awesome. Just try and tell me the 80s sucked car-wise. </div></div>

I believe that the GNX's claim to fame was that it was faster than a concurrent Corvette (until the ZR-1 came out a few years later). The 1989 Turbo Trans Am is the only other GM car that comes to mind that can say the same thing.

The GNXs (there were less than 1000 made), Grand Nationals, Turbo Coupes, Mustang GTs, and the like will likely be preserved in small numbers becuase of the efforts of the marque clubs. I know the Buick club has a very strong contingent of G-Body and Reatta fans keeping those flames alive.

I don't see anybody singing the praises of the AMC Alliance or Mazda GLC, however. Our group and our group alone will be the hope of preserving <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> of those cars for future generations to pass judgement on.

That's my real point. We can make all the value judgements we want on cars we dealt with on a daily basis, but that's not necessarily how they'll be remembered. What's desireable now may be dreck later, and visa-versa. If you don't agree, try looking up want ads for Superbirds and W-30 machines from 1974.

If somebody likes a car that's old enough to be unique, there should and will be a support mechanism/club for them. If we're not it, we can and will be replaced. For the sake of the hobby and of the legacy we protect, that will not be a good thing should it occur.

[Dandy Dave]

They only produced 26,000,000 + Model T Fords and those are "collectable" cars from the brass era until the late 20's. These were the VW BUG of their day. VW bugs are also now "Collectable" They were built in the millions also. Who's to say no one is going to be collecting and restoring cars from the 1980's and 1990's. I'm sure some one is out there saving Yugo's as we speak. There's all kind of people in the world and all kinds of cars. I am sure someone will save some examples as has been done though out our automotive history I would hope.

The trend that I see is that many of the young are not trade oriented today as we were only 20 to 25 years ago. Not everyone can become a "computer major" or a "pencil pusher" as we called them in the old days. With no one to "fix" stuff where would the hobbie be then?

I've always had an addiction for "Brass Era" cars but never had a roadable one until a few years ago. It only took me 35 years of collecting to get one. The only thing that I ever had that was close was the remains of a 1911 or 12 Stoddard Dayton roadster that I aquired at a farm auction in the early 80's for a whopping $27.50 (Yeah, you read it right... Twenty seven Dollars and fifty cents.) Without a motor and transmission there was just not enough left to justify restoration so after having it for 10 years or so I moved it along.

These early cars can be very reliable, but if something breaks it can be difficult for the average person to repair. If it was not for the fact that I have a machinest background, I would not have been able to keep this car running as I have had to make many parts for it.

The biggest thing that I think will affect the hobbie is whether enough of the young of this century will take the initiative to learn the trades that are essential to keeping these old cars alive and on the road long after we are all gone.

If we become a nation of nothing but "thinkers" like ancient Greece, We will surely parish. History will repeat itself.

Scarry Thought! Isn't it? Dave!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Dave, if someone who is young today learns any of the traditional trades, I think they will have a secure future for life. That is a big upside for those few who get properly educated in their chosen trade and develop good work habits early on.

But, back to the subject ~ Anyone who checks out Steve Snyder's site regularly will see that a fair percentage of his cars go offshore. These are mostly Classics. At first I was a little upset but this beats the heck out of hot rodding these cars IMO. They may come back someday, and if not, they are being appreciated by a collector who just happens to live outside the USA.

[Dandy Dave]

Steve, I fix stuff for a living and have more work offered to me than I can do. Good, bad, or indifferent, it seems things are already secure in the repair field. You "young un's" take a hint now! Dave!

[1937hd45]

I looked at that Stoddard-Dayton Dave had and passed on it because the missing parts just couldn't be found. However the way the hobby has changed you could build up a speedster with era correct parts and have fun with it.

[Dandy Dave]

Gee, You still remember li'l ol me? I sold that Stoddard Dayton back in the early to mid 90's to a fellow in the back hills of Colorado. He needed it for the rearend. I'm glad someone got some use out of it. And of course my profit margin was quite high. Dave!

[Sweepspear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeff_a</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Unfortunately, a lot of antique cars are being remanufactured into something else, and it's not good for the antique car hobby. I looked at a photo-posting website last week and typed-in "antique car". What showed up was a screen with 40 twenties and thirties cars with chrome-plated, supercharged SBC engines sticking up out of the hood ( actually, no hoods in this case ). Is that what's going to happen to all the really interesting antique cars? It's one thing to fix-up old cars -- but is getting rid of the hood, motor, front axle, rear axle, brakes, wheels, etc. adding to the car...or taking away? What I'm seeing lately are cases where people are buying "Classics" and turning them into "cars". Buying a Pierce-Arrow or a Packard, removing everything but the frame and body, planning on something "awesome", and then realizing that it's not going to work and selling the remains to someone else. Seems like a waste, IMO. </div></div>

There was a '36-'37 Cord on ebay not long ago that suffered this fate.

It was a basket case with a modern subframe already attached. It was inferred in the description that this was a plus.

So sad.

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

Last year I went to the Evansville Frog Follies for the first time. It is a large street rod show, for those of you at home. Based on what I saw, I would not worry about too many antiques becoming street rods. The street rodders are are geeting old and dying off too. There was a mobility scooter booth in the manufacturer's midway!

Based on this, there may very well be a surplus of antiques and rods, for the few who give a damn in 20 years. As was said earlier, people tend to collect what was popular when they were young. They also tend to ignore what was not.

A few years ago I could not buy squat for my 70 4-4-2, but look at the repro market now. It is full of goodies, even things I would not have dreamed of being available a few years ago. The same thing will happen down the road, with some of the popular cars of today, but it will take time.

What really bothers me, is the lack of future salvage yards, and the general public's push to rid our back yards of spare vehicles. That will hurt the hobby as much as anything. When future projects are no longer available, the hobby as we know it will die.

[ted sweet]

most new street rods are kit cars. not modified original cars

[Guest windjamer]

A week or so ago I told of two restorable 1950 plymouths that had just arived at a local u-pull it yard. Both where near compleat. One had a compleat steering wheel with a small crack,the outher was ex. cond. includeing the horn ring. I had no need of eather,but thinking I might make a buck at hershey I went back today with tools to pull them. The center of the chrome ring on one had been hit with a hammer the wheel it self was bent all to hell and the outher I think someone took a hammer to. THATS the reason we are loseing some of our yards and older vech. today.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ted sweet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">most new street rods are kit cars. not modified original cars </div></div>

I think it's been pretty well demonstrated on too many occasions that "<span style="font-style: italic">most</span>" is not very reassuring.

We're losing hundreds of really good and/or already restored cars every year, at least. Probably thousands. Permenantly. Worse, the pervasive <span style="font-style: italic">"Can you top this?"</span> mindset among rodders has meant that every year more and more of those lost cars are the ones almost all of us would least want to lose.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Based on this, there may very well be a surplus of antiques and rods, for the few who give a damn in 20 years. </div></div>

In 20 years we're talking about $10-$15/gal gas at least. Those cars that have been modified for regular use in a $2/gal world will be worthless. Authentic cars will never lose their intrinsic value. Those that make it through these years will, I think, be saved for eternity. The rest will be scrap furnace fodder.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...look at the repro market now. It is full of goodies, even things I would not have dreamed of being available a few years ago. The same thing will happen down the road, with some of the popular cars of today, but it will take time. </div></div>

If you compare the parts list for 1970 Oldsmobiles with the parts list for 1990 Oldsmobiles, I think you'll come to a different conclusion. Try to imagine repro CPUs. Repro ABS componenets. 15 different reproduction sensors. Repro Onstar components.

Now move on the 1991 catalog, little of which overlaps. And on and on and on.... God help anyone restoring a car like a 1990 Volvo, where small sales volumes meant that parts were hard to come by when they were new. I had to buy a used rear wheel bearing to keep a 6 year old Mazda 323 wagon on the road once, and it took me 3 weeks to find <span style="text-decoration: underline">it</span>!

I've always used the the decal kits that'd be necessary to illustrate this point. Your 442 needs at most 25 decals. My wife's Hyundai would need about 100. A Cadillac would need about twice that.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Every</span> other task in restoring a modern car is just as complicated and obtuse. Just publishing the restoration guides would be a Herculean task.

It might be worth it for a Ferrari F40 someday. However, if there are going to be authentic Chevettes and Corollas in the future they're going to be preserved as they are.

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

You need to note that I said SOME of the POPULAR cars of today will have parts repopped. That would include Corvettes, Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, and maybe a couple more. Volvos probably don't make the grade unless it has tandem axles in the rear and a fifth wheel. My Vista Cruiser is limited to what will interchange with a Cutlass, and that situation is not likely to change. Too many Vista only pieces that will never be reproduced due to low volume.

I do believe the parts will be limited to a few select models, but at one time I didn't think anyone would ever make what I needed for my 55 Chevy and 66 Mustang, let alone the 4-4-2. But lo and behold, someone did start making parts. Not nearly as soon as I would have liked, but it did happen.

[jeff_a]

Dale,

What prompted my comments was an ebay ad w/ a 1935 Packard V-12 Limousine I saw last week ( sale ends in 2 hrs.). The engine/suspension/brakes were already removed; some modern replacement junk ( disc brakes, I think ) had been installed; it was billed as as being hot rod material; but there were some cardboard boxes full of things like the instrument panel (with 120 mph speedometer)that had been saved. A selling point for the vehicle was not " Ask the man who owns one", but "This sucker is huge!". - Jeff

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A selling point for the vehicle was not " Ask the man who owns one", but "This sucker is huge!". </div></div>

"<span style="font-style: italic">Can you top this?</span>" at work. No doubt someone is already trying.