What is this noise on my ‘53 322?

[53buickconvert]

Can anyone tell me what this noise is? I used a stethoscope but can’t pinpoint it. Coming from the right bank. It’s not the vacuum/fuel pump. Tried everything I could think of. With the pushrods/lifters.?9571BCBD-7670-4EAA-9E4B-9357A7F95BC3.MOV

 

Tim

[old-tank]

Recently rebuilt engine or well used one?

[jackofalltrades70]

Sounds like maybe valve-train is really tight?  Had this set for a long time or just starting up this year?  As Willie asked, new or old?

[avgwarhawk]

Is the engine misfiring?  Sounds like a bent push rod. Pull the valve cover to inspect valve movement. 

[JohnD1956]

Does the 53 V8 have adjustable pushrods?

[53buickconvert]

It was completely rebuilt a few years back. I have been dealing with the noise since I assembled it. Had the regular pushrods after rebuild and I attempted to get rid of the noise by getting adjustable pushrods. That didn’t help. Runs well, doesn’t smoke.

 

The machine shop did the block work and installed a new cam and bearings and did the head work, I assembled it all with new valve train components, bearings, pistons, etc.

 

I have had the intake and cover off numerous times attempting to diagnose the issue. The pushrods don’ t appear to be bent. Thought maybe it was the fuel/vac. pump but that’s not it either. Tried putting a feeler gauge between the rocker arm and pushrods to see if there was a loose one but that didn’t make a difference.

 

kinda at a loss of what to do next other than pulling the head.

 

 

Tim

[1953mack]

Have you verified if your rocker arm shafts are right-side up or up-side down?

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

[Bhigdog]

Assuming it's lifter noise, and I think you say it's the right side only, and it's after a rebuild, I'd look at the oil supply to the lifters. That would lead me to speculate the front  cam bearing oil hole is miss-aligned or the noisy side oil gallery front plug was seated too deep and is blocking oil pressure to the lifters or has backed out and is leaking and losing oil pressure............Bob

Edited March 27, 2018 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

If I may ask, did the shop install hardened valve  seats in the heads?   I had a similar noise(although not tapping as fast. Not sure if your fast idle cam was engaged) in the head area.  It was found with a failed hardened seat.   

[53buickconvert]

I have verified the rocker arm shaft is right side up. I did have the hardened valve seats put in ( this happened before finding this site 5 years or so ago, wish I hadn’t had them put in). I also verified oil pressure at the bottom of the rocker arm shaft supports with the engine running. Im soaking the original rocker arm shaft and arms, going to try it out with that to see if it makes any difference before tearing anything apart. 

 

Thanks for for all the input so far!

 

Tim

[53buickconvert]

If I didn’t say earlier, it starts and runs well, smooth and doesn’t smoke.

[avgwarhawk]

If the rods, lifters, rocker arms and shaft all check out OK I would consider the real possibility of a failed hardened seat.  I would also check the distributor is not making the noise as its spins within its housing. 

[avgwarhawk]

4 minutes ago, 53buickconvert said:

If I didn’t say earlier, it starts and runs well, smooth and doesn’t smoke.

Mine did as well until it did start smoking. Noticable clatter in the head.

[tompett]

I have seen replacement push rods for 1953-55 can be thicker than the original slim ones, and they may hit the edge of the hole in the cylinder head. The manufacturer of the rods recommended widening the hole, we missed that info.

Tom

[Bhigdog]

3 hours ago, tompett said:

I have seen replacement push rods for 1953-55 can be thicker than the original slim ones, and they may hit the edge of the hole in the cylinder head. The manufacturer of the rods recommended widening the hole, we missed that info.

Tom

 Typical repro tchotchke. Kind of makes me wonder if the end radii are correct or it's: "to Hell with it, close enough, not our problem"...................Bob

[195354]

Tim

Here are a few ideas on the noise you are trying to pin down. I would remove the fuel pump add a cover and see if the noise changes. With the pump removed, the lever that actuates the pump will be out of the picture, I have seen weak return springs or loose pins in the body make a noise and they are hard to locate. If the noise does not change and I do not think it will change try canceling out the cylinders.  Use plastic or insulated pliers remove a spark plug wire for a second and see if you have any change.  When I do this, I have the wires loose so they are easy to pull, this will prevent damage to the wires. If any of one these reduce the noise, you at least have one place to look not eight. I have listened to the recording and it sure sounds like the valve train. Another idea is try to hold the rocker arm down with a bar just a little load  not enough that the push rod can fall out while it is running this will possibly change the noise or you might feel it.

Tim since this is a fresh rebuild has it been driven and heated up under load. Does the noise change when hot? If you can, try heating the engine up remove the valve covers and push down on each valve while hot. I had a valve train noise a few years back and it turned out a valve was sticking in the guide when warm. It would not return timely and the rocker would slap the valve. If you have extra valve covers cut the top so you can see what is going on, reduces the oil going all over the place. I have done the valve cover trick and it helps prevent burnt fingers just make sure you don't have any sharp edges on the cover .  

One other thought, contact a CAT dealer if you have one close  and purchase an engine oil sample kit they are usually under $20 take a sample this is another tool that can help tell you what is going on.

Iet us know what you find.   

Good luck

Steve

[60FlatTop]

I have used a timing light to watch value action. Inductive pickups are nice because you can change the sequence of the strobe easily. You can is a 12V so the inductive timing lights work fine. On 6V cars I connect the 12V devices to a second battery.

 

If you have to disconnect the oil filter to get the valve cover off, be sure to connect the oil lines before you run it without the cover. That wi;; sale you at least an hour, from my experience.

Bernie

[53buickconvert]

Attached are a couple videos of the engine running. The one showing the exhaust is just after starting and the engine is not warmed up yet.

 

I did drive it up to the machine shop that did the work on the engine to get his opinion on what was going on. He got an adjustable pliers out and moved a couple rocker arms to check the movement up and down with the engine off. A couple of the arms could be moved a considerable amount (1/8” maybe)

 

He thought one of three things could be going on: 1. Pushrods wrong length 2. Lifters not operating properly 3. Clogged oil galley, no or low oil pressure right bank.

 

He said thought if it was a hardened seat coming loose, it would be backfiring missing, etc. and not running very well.

 

He recommended comparing oil pressure in both banks, maybe by slightly loosening rockerarm shaft arms while running and rechecking lifters to see if they are operating properly.

 

He also had great disdain for currently available parts and had little confidence in the tolerances they are made to.

A couple things I have done was to remove the rocker arm shaft assembly from my parts car and run it with that. It made no difference in sound. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I did run it with the fuel/vacuum pump off the engine to see if that was the noise, it wasn’t.

 

It’s been cold here in SW Iowa, so when it warms up later this week I hope to check a couple things.

 

Tim

95D65F09-CE6D-4D05-825F-22DBCF36D738.MOV

1329F256-2BE2-4DCC-BD95-66EDD0D25158.MOV

[avgwarhawk]

It is misfiring from the sound of the tailpipe. Mine ran fine with a failed seat. Smoked some and clatter from the head.  Compression test done?

Edited April 7, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[old-tank]

A common issue with rebuilds on 53 54 55 is that the supplied lifters are 1956 which require a shorter pushrod.   If that is the case  and 53 pushrods were used then some valves will stay open or there will be looseness at the rockers since the lifter will not attempt to pump up.  If you have oil from the rockers, then pressures and distribution is ok.

[195354]

Sounds like a miss fire, try to canceling out the cylinders one at a time with someone at the tail pipe when they say no change in the noise you have located that problem. After that, I would pull the plugs and see if they have, any tell tail signs that help with the diagnostics.  I would run a compression test next and before I started pulling anything apart, I would check the lift on each rocker, easier when the plugs are out.  Dial indicator is best but I have used a ruler, bar the engine over by hand check lift  as you go also look for a loose rocker on the other cylinders, once you have done this it will confirm the cam is ok and the lifter is filled with oil. Let us know what you find.

Steve

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

As a note, with my cylinder head issues and running the engine with no valve cover, oil was not slinging all over the place. It drips it's way in through the rocker shafts. I notice you have oil puddles around the valve springs as it should be.  I don't believe, in my experience with cylinder head issues, that lack of oil is the problem. There is oil in the upper head and it's getting the through the rocker shafts as it should.  

 

Find out what cylinder is not firing. Then check your spark plug wires are in correct order. The tailpipe video I see a putt putt and not a constant flow of exhaust.

Edited April 7, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Beemon]

If he's checking rocker clearances now and noticing that there's play, don't ever go back there again. 

[RiKi5156B]

Are you trying to adjust the valves on a hydraulic lifter set?  If so there is no lash to be measured. Go through the valve train and adjust them to zero lash +about 1/2 turn. Non adjustable rocker sets have that built in adjustables dont. Don’t run it any more till you determine if your are hydraulic or solid lifters.Hydraulics need preload,mechanicals need lash.

Edited April 7, 2018 by RiKi5156B
Text (see edit history)

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, RiKi5156B said:

Are you trying to adjust the valves on a hydraulic lifter set?  If so there is no lash to be measured. Go through the valve train and adjust them to zero lash +about 1/2 turn. Non adjustable rocker sets have that built in adjustables dont. Don’t run it any more till you determine if your are hydraulic or solid lifters.Hydraulics need preload,mechanicals need lash.

There is no lash to be measured or adjusted... just set the valve stem height

Another common problem is that the machine shops don't know this; the do not set the valve stem height:

"1.525 to 1.550 measured (in inches) from valve cover rail to valve stem tip."

With the rocker assembly off lay a straight edge across the tips of the valve stems...sometimes there is a huge variation, if not measure.

[KAD36]

 

Heres an excerpt ( in italics) from my 322 rebuild illustrating Willies point.  My rebuild was of a running engine.  The original valve train clacked pretty good - not quite as loud as yours and there was some play in the system because the lifters were frozen from sitting for so long in "the barn".  I replaced with 56 push rods and lifters and everything got very quiet.  During the rebuild and upon making this measurement I found some out of spec conditions.  Depending on what parts were new/reused (I didn't go back and check your post) note that valve seat depth (if you had the heads worked), valve face material removed if the valves were ground,  and valve stem height can result in play (if too much material removed inconsistently across the 16 valves that the lifter can't make it up resulting in no preload) in a fixed geometry pushrod/lifter/rocker assembly.  If you are not sure what the rebuilder did go through and make this measurement and observe the final height which would reflect all the part tolerances.  In my case the swapping a few valves around got it back to spec. 

 

When all the parts in this car were new and GM factory parts, it was less likely to run into this.  If you don't have adjustable push rods and some of the parts are "overworked", there is nothing to take up the tolerance stack of an out of spec condition.  Replace the suspect parts.  The "system" will "depend" on everything measuring out properly.

 

1/8" slop between the pushrod and lifter is wrong if all the lifters are pumped up - if I'm understanding your post correctly.

 

Progress update and lessons learned:

 

1)  Write these numbers in your shop manual from Willies post and make these measurements.  They are important unless you have adjustable pushrods or rocker arms and hard to find elsewhere

 

valve stem height:

 

1.525 to 1.550 measured (in inches) from valve cover rail (base on where valve cover sits on head) to valve stem tip.

 

valve stem clearance in guide:

0.0025 inlet

0.0030 exhaust

 

Check all the valve stem heights.  Having been the second time these heads were worked, we had 4 of them that were out of spec due to varying seat depths and the fact that the intake valves were reused.  Swapping shortest to longest positions fixed 2 of the valves, milling a little off the stem of one, and the seat of the other fixed the other 2.  All now meet spec.  This measurement is important as it will affect lifter preload, valve spring installed height, and rocker arm position on the stem. (unless you provide for adjustment somewhere)

 

Attached picture of measurement method to base of head:

 

 

Think this link will work - go to page 2 about part way down and check the photo -

Two other things to check for - ensure the valve guides are not sitting too high in the head, and ensure the valve springs aren't binding (fully compressed to solid when valve is open).  Both those scenarios crept up on us during the project and we caught them through measurements before assembly was complete. 

 

Also agree with others observations - sounds like a miss at the exhaust pipe.  Put a piece of cardboard or something over the tailpipe and leave a small opening between the cardboard and pipe tip to listen to the exhaust flow - should be steady with no regular "puffs".  Some occasional irregular puffs are fine.

 

Good luck

Edited April 8, 2018 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[53buickconvert]

Thanks everyone for all the help and suggestions. I finally got it running right, not sure if it was dumb luck or the attempt at a methodical approach to fix the problem. First I checked each cylinder for compression and they all checked good. Next I found a couple of bad spark plug wires which I got from a prominent online Buick parts supply company when I rebuilt the engine a few years back. I found that by accident when checking things with my timing light and I know that they had initially worked.

 

 The other issue and main one was that I needed to extend my adjustable pushrods to a longer length. Still not sure why that is. 

That was  time consuming effort since it didn’t originally have adjustable pushrods and had to be adjusted with the rocker arm shaft off or top of the engine opened up.

 

Bottom line is it’s running well and sounding good, other than the voltage regulator going out the other evening, but that’s another story.

 

Still love my Roadmaster.