gwells Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Not my pic, but I've been trying to ID the make of the bodies in this factory scene. Seem to be opera coupes, with large, very square side and rear windows. The 'turtledeck" is pretty distinctive, with a rather crisp outer edge and a trunk opening that comes close to it at the lower corners. Suspect the transition from the crisp edge to the smooth side would take some handwork, as the worker in the foreground is doing. Anyone recognize these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The bodies scream Cadillac to me for some reason, late teens. If not Cadillac, a close cousin in the GM family perhaps. Interesting how the top fabric is already installed while the body is still "in the white"........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Haven't been able to match the body with anything GM yet. And haven't found any coupe or opera coupe with that large a rear window. Most are smaller and/or quite a bit more rectangular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Trimacar, I was looking later in time than late teens, but have now checked 1918-19 Cadillacs 'victoria coupes' and close, but no cigar. More traditional rounded turtledeck edges and square lower rear corners in the side windows. Good guess and thanks for pointing me earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 They might be for the early 1920's Packard Sixes 1922-25, photo could have been taken in the Pullman body plant in Chicago. Pullman, the Sleeping Car company, had an auto body making operation, Packard contracted with them to supply bodies in those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) I'm probably embarrassing myself even responding here. Cars in twenties and earlier aren't my strong suit. For some reason, Studebaker popped into my mind and so I Google Imaged "Studebaker Opera Coupe" I think I may have surprised myself by being correct. I can't quite get my hands on the image, so I ask that you guys take a look and see what you think. Go to Google, Images, Studebaker Opera Coupe. Hopefully you'll see the blue one with the black roof from Belgium. Edited July 31, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Hudsy, attached is the car you must have been looking at and again, close but not a match to my eye. Look at the distance between the lower corner of the trunk lid and the side of the body, plus that crisp line on the edge of the unknown's turtledeck is almost horizontal when it joins the main part of the body. And no curved corner at the bottom rear corner of the curved window on the Stude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Rats! I'm a total failure and I'm humiliated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 1, 2016 Author Share Posted August 1, 2016 Not at all. I appreciate you wanting to help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 This pic is from packardinfo.com. 1921-1922 model year. I would agree with 58L-Y8 that they are most likely packards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) I wonder if there was a Packard like that only with a single belt molding. Edited August 2, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 2, 2016 Author Share Posted August 2, 2016 Fordrodsteven, I'm still seeing numerous differences between your pic and the unknown bodies, I hate to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgedh2 Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Try one more model year. Here's a 1922-1923 Packard Coupe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 2, 2016 Author Share Posted August 2, 2016 Yep, that's pretty close, based on what can been seen from that angle. I'll search for a rear view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 3, 2016 Author Share Posted August 3, 2016 Only rear view I could find was in an ad, where the image was an illustration rather than a picture. But it did have the sharp edge on the turtle deck as show in the IP, as well as the other identifying features So I think you guys have nailed it. 1922-23 Packard coupe bodies seems to be the correct ID. Anyone know someone who actually owns a 1922-23 Packard coupe like this? Not much shows up via internet search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 This is said to be a 23 126 coupe but with body by Holbrook. It appears to have rounded edges on the roof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 3, 2016 Author Share Posted August 3, 2016 Thank you, Dave! As best I can see, it is a perfect match. Mystery solved. So that factory pic is likely at the Holbrook plant. Suggests why it was so difficult to locate a matching body. Do you know the location of that car, i.e. museum or private collection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Ft Lauderdale http://www.bdavidcathell.com/LAHP/Archives/2012/LAHP_120430/Life_After_HP_120430.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Another post said there's no evidence it's a Holbrook body http://www.bdavidcathell.com/LAHP/Archives/2012/LAHP_120430/Life_After_HP_120430.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 It's too late today, but I'll try to give the museum a call tomorrow when they're open to see if they have an evidence or documentation regarding the Holbrook connection. Call me crazy (like my ex does) but I love this kind of historical research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
41 Su8 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 The front windows in the Holbrook building in Hudson, NY had the same type of 'glass wall' windows. The building was then used by Universal Match up until the'70's I believe. This could be the Holbrook building. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 41 Su8, thank you for your info! The only picture I could find of that building (which was razed in 1988) is this, on the cover of a Universal Match employee magazine in 1944. Here's slightly enlarged and sharpened cut from the image: To my eye, the locations of the rotating portion of the windows, and the number of panes in each one, match the pics shown in the first post. So I believe you are right: that is the Holbrook plant. I called the Fort Lauderdale Automotive Museum and Rose confirmed the car shown above does indeed have a Holbrook body, as the door sill carries the Holbrook trim almost always seen on bodies they made. Slam dunk on this one, guys. Thanks for everyone's interest and assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 Kind of an interesting side note to this photo... It was used today in a Facebook post made by the someone connected with the Early V-8 Ford Foundation Museum in Auburn, IN (a wonderful small museum BTW which I visited last year) and I posted a brief note that the cars shown weren't Fords. The poster replied that indeed they were Ford bodies and claimed they were from "Ford archives 44, 10385107, Detroit, Michigan, USA, circa 1927, A group of men working on an assembly line of car bodies at the Ford motor plant in Detroit." Based on my own research, and knowledge of Ford Model T and A, and on the input of you sharp guys, I am convinced the photo is misattributed as Ford bodies at Getty. I'd appreciate hearing opinions from some of you other folks, whom I know from long monitoring of this subforum to be sharper than tacks when it comes to knowledge of automotive history. I don't really have a dog in this hunt, other than believing with your help we got the ID right in this thread. Plus I've never seen a Ford with a body like those shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I don't believe they are Ford bodies. Not with those cut-in quarter panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rohn Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Lincoln? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 To my eye, every discernible feature on the bodies in the photo in my original post matches the Packard coupe Dave Mellor shows in his post #16. The closeness of the lower corners of the trunk lid to the body sides is nearly unique in my experience; I've never seen another car that had anything similar as best I can remember nor I have encountered anything similiar in my searching. Being a Holbrook body, it certainly possible this body design was sold to other builders. As best I can tell, the pic came to Getty via the photo archives of the UK firm Popperfoto, which Getty describes thusly: "Popperfoto - historic European rights-managed images. Founded by Czech photojournalist Paul Popper in 1934, Popperfoto is one of the UK's oldest and largest independently-owned image libraries." If it was captioned outside of the US, I am even more convinced that it is misattributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
41 Su8 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Gwells, it was very common for car manufacturers to copy a successful custom body. Packard, for instance, would introduce a production body that was the same as a previous custom to keep the dollars in house. I have no doubt that other companies did the same thing. Packard would sometimes call these copies as 'Semi-Customs'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 If the archive picture is dated 1927, that is definitely not a 1927 Ford. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 41 Su8, I don't have much disagreement with your last post, but I believe in Packard parlance in this timeframe, there were production bodies, full-custom bodies, and semi-custom bodies. The last were typically bodies that were proposed to Packard by coachbuilders and if chosen by the company, they were supplied to Packard in small runs, say 10-30 bodies in white, to be stored and then finished and trimmed as orders for them were received, sometimes over a couple of years. Lincoln was another company who operated in this manner and there were probably others. It would be nice if Antique Automobile editor West Peterson, whose Packard knowledge far exceeds mine, or Walt Gosden, probably the expert regarding the coachbuilt era, would chime in to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I agree with all the above regarding them not being Ford bodies, nor intended for Ford chassis. A number of body builders built small quantities of certain body styles for various automobile manufacturers: Judkins (Lincoln, Studebaker) Willoughby (Franklin, Cole, Lincoln) Dietrich (Franklin - speedsters 1929-32) . I also agree with the guesstimate that it is the Holbrook factory in Hudson, N.Y. Tracking down the original source of a period photograph can be tricky, as proved by this example. Unless the photograph is stamped on the back as to subject and location or has an original press release paper glued to it with information I take photo service providers like Getty etc with a grain of salt - they don't know cars. Greg - thanks for the compliment but the word 'expert' isn't in my vocabulary I don't think there is such a thing, although many people believe that they indeed are! I don't use or believe in other words either like prestige , famous, etc. that tend to 'puff up' the subject or person of the moment. I've been lucky to be able to acquire period material for the last half a century that provides information on coachbuilders, body builders of the pre WWII era and had communication with those people that were involved in that industry in person when they were still alive 35+ years ago. I really enjoy sharing the information and images with all of you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 (edited) Could it possibly be a Peerless? Sometimes a successful style is patterned after by several companies. Peerless used Judkins and Willoughby for bodies, but not Holbrook, as far as I know. There are a number of Peerless Opera Coupes around of several models....but here's a 1922 Model 56 V-8: Edited August 13, 2016 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 It's certably possible. Would have to see a rear view to compare the unusual turtledeck design to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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