Another one bites the dust!

[Guest]

The CLC has decide to allow Modified into the club. Anything with a Cadillac drive train.

The BCA also allowed this, so my membership has lapsed as of August. So will my CLC membership as of Feb 2006 after 10 years.

They are quoted in the "Self Starter", that any Cadillac is better then it being turned into a "soup can, demo derby cars, or washing machines", but I disagree.

Modifed is counter preservation.

I hope AACA dose not sway under opinions of the baby-boomers who have to much time and cash to blow on a "pimp my ride" project.

You'll soon hear on the show field that "the car was in to good of shape to cut up".

[Guest South_paw]

I am apposed to it as well,but it's a smart move for the CLC. All the CLC did was acknowledge that Mods exist. They are not allowed to be judged at nationals(as always).They would have to park as "display vehicles" (as always). Pretty much nothing has changed except they now gladly take the $$$ from mod members as apposed to turn the $$ away

[Guest]

Right, doing anything for the almighty dollar makes it OK.

I'm with Tommy.

hvs

[Guest greg72monte]

Sorry to hear about another club giving in to pressure. Preservation and restoration are what I want. There are plenty of clubs out there for rods & modifieds.

AACA and VCCA, DO NOT CHANGE!!!

That is why I am a member.

[K8096]

The CLC is dying anyway, at least as far as pre war cars are concerned. I've been going to CLC National events since they started in the early 80's. When they had a meet at Greenfield Village in the mid 80's, there was a whole row of Cadillac touring cars from the teens. When I went to the meet in Chicago (the third largest city in the USA) in 1997 or 98, the oldest Cadillac was a 1909, followed by a 1924, then there were more from the late 20's. Think about that, a quarter century of cadillac history represented by two cars. The national meets are overrun with not cars from the 50's or 60's, but late 70's & 1980's stuff! They judge any car over 10 years old. Definately driving away the people with the pre war cars.

[DizzyDale]

Dear K8096,I LOVE pre war iron,that being said IMHO the biggest thing driving people away from pre war autos is FATHER TIME and or the GRIM REAPER.diz

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Diz,

I think another factor is that younger generations are becoming less hands-on about anything, and that includes maintenance of and operation of vehicles.

A lot of "youngsters" ( or even "nice" thirty-somethings) don't have (and don't want to have) the chops and patience to work-on and drive an antique...

If it can't bounce around like that red Civic in the latest (annoying) Honda commercial, they don't want to drive it.

I 'd be happy to relieve older collectors of their "unwanted" Brass or Nickel...if they want to see it "get a good home", let's talk...but I don't have six-figures to go buy one at B-J...

I have mixed feelings about clubs allowing modifieds...there seem to be plenty of organizations out there for modifieds already.

I definitely think the AACA ought to be the last bastion of "pure" antique car-dom. IMHO.

[K8096]

Very good point. I'm 31 years old, and am ashamed by the "dumbing down" of most guys my age. Most of them don't know how to change a spark plug in a lawn mower, much less change the oil in a car. A problem I see for the AACA in the near future is when these computer controlled pint sized foreign cars become 25 years old pretty soon. I just can't honestly imagine in 20 years seeing my wifes 2000 Honda Odyssey on the show field at Hershey. Since we're at 1980 now, maybe the AACA should stand pat there for 10 years, and then go to cars 35 years old & older. I think the CCCA & HCCA are also equal bastions of authentically restored or original preserved cars.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just can't honestly imagine in 20 years seeing my wifes 2000 Honda Odyssey on the show field at Hershey. Since we're at 1980 now, maybe the AACA should stand pat there for 10 years, and then go to cars 35 years old & older. </div></div>

The surest way to ensure that the authentic car hobby dies is to give an arbitrary cut off date where it doesn't matter any more. In very short order questions will be asked like about what's so special about such-and-such a year, etc., and at that point the concept becomes cloaked in an air of contrivance and conceit.

This emerging supremacy of hot-rodding is happening mainly because authentic cars have become so valuable (in many cases), and over-restoration costs (considered the minimal costs of admission by many) are so high, that people for years have been afraid <span style="font-style: italic">to drive the damn things!</span> It just simply isn't an active hobby any more. Our cars are mainly overpriced butterflies for extremely well-heeled collectors (most of whom don't waste their time on clubs anyway).

That's a gross over-simplification, but an apt one. To see where this came from think back on those national conventions from the 1970's and 1980's mentioned by K8096, and if possible dig out your old goody bag/program from those shows. Try to find/remember anything like the degree of accommodation that must me made today for trailered cars...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm 31 years old, and am ashamed by the "dumbing down" of most guys my age. Most of them don't know how to change a spark plug in a lawn mower, much less change the oil in a car. </div></div>

...then look in those programs and see if you can find even one person that this statement would apply to.

We treated this hobby like it was coin collecting, and forgot what the money was for.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...people for years have been afraid <span style="font-style: italic">to drive the damn things!</span> </div></div>

On another thread people were talking about how horribly some people act, and let their children act, around antique cars. And they admitted that has factored in on taking their cars out, especially if it means parking it and leaving it unattended, even for a short period.

Our region is having a local tour on Saturday out through some back roads to a small town out in the country. We plan to stop for lunch at an old pharmacy that has been turned into a restaurant decorated with memorabilia. We went there last year. We can leave the old cars unattended there. But we would not be able to in the Charleston area. Some teenager would have to do something to one of the cars. Or you risk having them plow into in on a skateboard.

And I agree, for the hobby to continue we have to include the newer antique cars and welcome their owners. The basis of this hobby is to preserve automotive history for future generations.

[poci1957]

I would like to second the hope that the AACA does not bow to the pressure to embrace street rods. It is indeed an uphill battle to resist, as many people including some of our own forum like them, but I really think street rods in AACA are inconceivable. There are lots of street rod activities elsewhere, please go there and leave the AACA to those interested in authenticity, preservation and restoration. We are a dying breed and losing ground to the street rod/rich baby boomer/garage queen movement, but the AACA should not give up what it there for. Todd C

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We went there last year. We can leave the old cars unattended there. But we would not be able to in the Charleston area. Some teenager would have to do something to one of the cars. Or you risk having them plow into in on a skateboard. </div></div>

Sue, you're close enough to Pittsburgh to perhaps know where Schenley Park is, but for those who don't is a roughly 20 square mile city park in Pittsburgh. It borders some of the wealthiest (Squirrel Hill) and most crime ridden (Oakland) neighborhoods in Pittsburgh.

For years I helped run a major (1500+ cars) charity car show as an adjunct to a VSCCA vintage car race in the park. The major part of the show was between the University of Pittsburgh campus (Oakland) and the far end of the Carnegie Mellon U. campus. It was routine to find indigent people who'd spent the night on your show field when you came to set up the day before the show, and 24 hour security patrols (provided by a local motorcycle club) were an absolute necessity for the 2 day event. <span style="font-style: italic">EVERY</span> element of urban society walks that show every year.

<span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"purple\\"]In over 15 years of involvement at every level of the organization, I never once heard of a car intentionally disturbed or even accidentally damaged. </span> It happens, I know. The recent fire truck thread is only one of many stories we can all repeat. But some people do horrible things to their grandchildren as well. It'd be a pretty lousy excuse to keep your kids away from them based on that kind of logic.

Our American society is built on <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]fear</span>, especially <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]fear</span> of each other. It sucks. <span style="font-style: italic">(Did you know that there hasn't been a single documented case of tainted Halloween candy in the U.S. in almost 40 years? Yet in many places far less than 1/2 of the children are <span style="font-weight: bold">allowed</span> to trick-or-treat their own neighborhoods any more strictly out of <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]fear</span>! Violent crime is at a 30 year low as well, but you'd never know it to look at the latest <span style="font-weight: bold">"Breaking news on Channel 4"</span>.)</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]Fear</span> makes you give up the best parts of life. <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]Fear</span> makes you easily manipulated (which makes it very popular among certain elements). <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]Fear</span> ends joy. And <span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]fear</span>'s helping to kill our car clubs.

[K8096]

"Did you know that there hasn't been a single documented case of tainted Halloween candy in the U.S. in almost 40 years?"

Where did you get this from? I remember several years ago seeing a news story about some Halloween candy that had a razor in it.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> Where did you get this from? I remember several years ago seeing a news story about some Halloween candy that had a razor in it.

Right, and there were dozens of rapes and murders in the Superdome after hurricane Katrina.

Dave is right on this one. Fear has come to rule our lives.

As FDR said, "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself."

hvs

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Did you know that there hasn't been a single documented case of tainted Halloween candy in the U.S. in almost 40 years?"

Where did you get this from? I remember several years ago seeing a news story about some Halloween candy that had a razor in it. </div></div>

Actually I was wrong. It's almost 50 years now.

The information comes from the book <span style="font-style: italic">The Culture of Fear</span> by Barry Glassner. I must admit I haven't read the book and was first made aware of it through the best documentary on fear ever made, <span style="font-style: italic">Bowling for Columbine</span>, which the blindly self-assured are now congratulating themselves for not seeing. Checking the facts from the movie led me to the book.

This urban myth began with a false scare in 1958. According to the book, which has passed every test of accuracy since being published in 1999, the only children who were poisoned or fatally injured by Halloween candy <span style="font-weight: bold">ever</span> in U.S. history had that inflicted upon them by a blood relative in the home. I suppose Easter baskets must <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> be the devil's work!

I emphatically reccommend <span style="font-style: italic">Bowling for Columbine</span> for anyone, especailly in DVD form where the fact citations (that fearmongers love to obfuscate) are given. It <span style="font-weight: bold">will</span> change your mind about America, and it <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> save your child's life. Strong words, but none that an open mind would deny.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to second the hope that the AACA does not bow to the pressure to embrace street rods. It is indeed an uphill battle to resist, as many people including some of our own forum like them, but I really think street rods in AACA are inconceivable. There are lots of street rod activities elsewhere, please go there and leave the AACA to those interested in authenticity, preservation and restoration. We are a dying breed and losing ground to the street rod/rich baby boomer/garage queen movement, but the AACA should not give up what it there for. Todd C </div></div>

For the record there is a BIG differance between a "Street Rod" and a "HOT ROD built in 1965 or earlier", I wouldn't want to see "Street Rods" on an AACA show field either.

[K8096]

Your original post stated "tainted halloween candy" now your last post says "poisoned or fatally injured." I think there's a big difference there.

You got a lot more specific in your 2nd post, and your 2nd post sounds much more severe. I know for a fact I saw on the news a couple years ago some kid got a candy bar that someone put a razor in. The kid had responsible parents that looked at his candy when he got home before letting him have it. Now biting into a small razor will not fatally injury anyone, but it does make you stop & think. All I know is when my young child starts trick or treating in a couple years, I will briefly look over her candy when she comes home. I'm not getting it x rayed (I know of at least one wealthy suburb that makes this service available), and I'm not going to tell her she can only go to houses where she knows the people. That being said, I'm not going to apologize for being a responsible parent either. Let's drop this part of the thread now & get back to talking cars!

[Twitch]

1937hd45- Yeah there's a huge difference but nobody around cares. I have yet to talk to anyone in Southern Cali at a show or cruise in that has a "modified" auto that actually did most of the modding work more recently than like 1970. All the "hot rods" are reincarnations of much earlier work too. Some have been updated and re-done 2-3 times in the last 40-50 years since they were originally modified. And most were originally modded at a time when they were not even semi-rare, and still aren't. The 400 run of V-16 Marmons is rare. A million production run of plain-Jane 39-40 Fords isn't?

I really wonder if anything post the mid- 1970s will ever be "collected" other than auto exotica like Lamborghinis, 400-run unique Audis, some Benzs, Vipers- you get the idea. The "kids" today that haunt the cruises and shows around here talk about wanting cars like a 64 Malibu or a 47 Ford. They're sure not drooling about 1980s Granadas or Camrys. "Collecting" a 70-something AMC Gremlin is not on par with collecting a Delage, Horch or Delahaye.

I see all the cars we own simply going to the next generation. They aren't dumb enough to imagine that some 1980-90s econo-bucket from a 330,000 production run will be at all rare or valuable, ever. You can see the impetus to obtain rarities in limited run twelve 60s Hemicudas going for $200,000. No young person is planning retirement on a 1983 Buick Regal's future value.

[1937hd45]

Back in 1976 I bought a new Ford F-150 and towed my race car to Hershey and won my Senior Award. This was the last NEW vehicle I've bought. This year 2005 I was walking down the hallway in the Hershey Lodge and a fellow was carrying his newly won Senior. I asked him what he won with,...........a 1977 GMC pickup. The antique car hobby is about dead.

[stock_steve]

"...I asked him what he won with,...........a 1977 GMC pickup. The antique car hobby is about dead..."

I thought "antique" was defined as 25 years old--therefore a '77 is an antique, no? What am I missing?

[R W Burgess]

Hey Bob, are you saying the Jimmy was worth saving, but not the Ford? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[K8096]

"I thought "antique" was defined as 25 years old--therefore a '77 is an antique, no? What am I missing?"

I better grab that 1980 Toyota coupe then. Maybe it will be worth a million dollars someday!!!

On a lighter note, did you guys see Kruse auction catalogue hawking the 1975 Ford Escort that was Pope John Pauls before he became pope? Does anyone know if that auction happened yet or what it brought? Kruse was advertising it as a potential income producer for the next 1000 years.

[stock_steve]

"I better grab that 1980 Toyota coupe then. Maybe it will be worth a million dollars someday!!!"

I didn't think I was commenting on values--only wanted to point out (the obvious) that if a car's 25 years old, it's an antique--and entitled to participate in AACA national meets (& compete for awards therein).

[DizzyDale]

Dear Bob,Tempus Fugit.diz

[JB-ed]

There is a prevailing thought through this thread that collectors of pre-war vehicles represent a "dying breed." This is patently false, as seen by memberships and (to some extent) participation in many pre-war clubs and activities. In north east Ohio within a 30-mile radius of me I can site 18 families in the 30 to 50-year-old age bracket with brass era and 1920s vehicles. The problem with most clubs now is that the cars allowed are faster, the tours are faster, and the events are no fun for participants with early cars. So they stay home. In addition, younger people with early cars are not always seen at events because they have to attend to families and work. These early cars and members are interested in clubs, magazines, and assistance. Problem is, it all gets diluted when a club tries to cover 100 years of automobiles in one swoop. Years ago I wrote a detailed letter to an AACA president who now frequents this forum. This was shortly after the 25-year qualification came into being. I suggested that AACA divide into two groups, with two magazines, two judging systems, etc., etc. I have his response, basically a chastisement with a number of reasons why I was wrong about my predictions. His letter makes fun reading now, given the state we are now in. I have suggested that VMCCA consider restructuring itself into a national pre-war club and give the pre-war segment of AACA someplace useful to go. No response so far.

[1937hd45]

JB, I agree with your observations. I have ZERO interest in seeing that all the numbers match on some Chevelle that arrived in an enclosed trailer. The Chevelle owner in most cases wouldn't know a 50HP Simplex if it ran over his detail kit. It is too late to correct things, the late models have won, just live with the memories of better times.

[Guest BruceW]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> suggested that VMCCA consider restructuring itself into a national pre-war club... </div></div>

Although a lot of what was said may be true, I doubt that the VMCCA would want to give up half or more of its current members by restricting itself to only pre-war vehicles. The majority of VMCCA members I know drive postwar on VMCCA tours.

[6219_Rules]

The choice to include and allow limited participation of modified Cadillacs in the CLC National was based on the membership at large. It was felt that, overall, a slightly modified Cadillac (modern brakes, updated interior to taste, non-factory paint, etc..) was better than losing the car altogether and on the acceptance that restoration often is too costly or involved. Whether or not you agree with that, it is a fact in these times of tightening fiscal restrictions and fuel costs, that many would rather see a Cadillac on the road than scrapped or left to rot.

No, it is not in keeping with the strict guidelines of any car club that seeks to preserve their marque(s) in original condition. That is the ideal and one I completely support. Nor is this decision a complete betrayal to that tradition. It is a nod in the direction of keeping the marque alive. Nothing lasts forever, and I honestly believe that eventually this hobby will end as we have known it for no other reason than time passing us by. Those who really get into old cars do it for the memories and nostalgia of the times, for the history of it and the incredible impact the automobile made generally on our world and outlook. For my part, I would vote against any further additions to this acceptance but whole heartedly support it as it stands. We must be able to change and accept change with the times, or not and do as Tommy1927, drop out and feel superior in his leaving the CLC.

I hate to see you leave, Tommy, but if you prefer to only participate in clubs that do not recognise modifications, then that is what you should do. I doubt the AACA or the CCCA will ever include modifications. As a member in the AACA, CCCA and CLC, I salute you for your priorities and commitment.

[R W Burgess]

Randall, You got to keep the interest alive. The best way in the world is to tour, and bring along a young person. Once the addiction hits them the way it has me, our car hobby will continue to be popular. Spread the word, partner! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Guest]

The number of pre-1980's finished car is a "constant" number. Let's say 100k for this example. Those 100k "units" will still exist on planet earth after the owners pass on.

So, the 100k units, will be worth more in value. Someone will have them in their garage, so the clubs do have a maxium membership... 100k in the example.

So, your home made cars bends that rule, to allow 150k units. You change the focus of the club, because your club is off mission and loosing it's base.

I don't need to be a member of your "off mission club".

I drove the '58 to CLC 100th year in 2002, and paided $2.54 a gallon back then. I drove my 1950 Buick in 2003.

People drive the '60's and up for ease of operation, that's it! A/C, tape players,and the like.

I am not going to be on a tour or show field with 1960's and up cars. Simple. Sure as hell, not anything with low profile tires, and DVD screens in the head rests.

[Guest imported_Dwight V.]

Hmmm, the brain is churning.

Point A: I think that the collector car hobby will be subject purely to the younger generation's interest in history as a general rule. If you have no interest in history or preservation, then you aren't likely to find an old car very fascinating. When a new Toyota pickup has a 245 HP V6 and turns a better 0-60 time than my 20 year old German "performance" car, there is little incentive for me to tinker with old cars if all I'm interested in is effortless speed and low maintenance. Multiply that disparity by 50 years of evolution, and the chasm widens. I don't have the solution for that one.

Point B: one of the above posts sort of alluded to the specialization of clubs. Perhaps more of this really is needed? While there is some cross-pollination, I can tell you that when owners of new MINIs and classic Minis get together, we give the other cars only a cursory glance, because they are so different our interests simply do not transfer much. Both are fine cars and fun to drive in their own right, but the experiences of ownership are vastly different. The two survive much better in their seperate 'camps' doing their own things. This need not be a bad thing.

Perhaps the AACA is trying to be too much to too many?

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Perhaps the AACA is trying to be too much to too many? </div></div>

That sure needs to be cast in bronze and sent to the directors! Is there a class for 25 year motorhomes and another for racing Monster Trucks yet?

[Peter Gariepy]

Tom,

I understand your position... but your numbers arent accurate. "100k cars, 150k if we allow modifications". I think it's more like 100k before, 600k afterward. Have you not attended general car shows in your area? Here in tucson the antique/classic/restored are outnumbered by 5 to 1. (or more)

The reality is in the car hobby we are the minority. Hot rods, rat rods, low riders, rice rockets, customs, muscle cars, modified cycles, etc. etc. are part of the car hobby as well. I for one enjoy looking at them all... what I own is my preference - and i respect the preference of others.

(Was it all that long ago when our 50/60s car were considered junk by the antique car hobby?)

Just my (not so) humble opinion.

Peter

[D Binger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That sure needs to be cast in bronze and sent to the directors! Is there a class for 25 year motorhomes and another for racing Monster Trucks yet? </div></div>

I agree with you. Sometimes it might be better to stick with what is working instead of trying to fix something that isn't broke.

I wonder if they have thought about farm tractors yet? Then we could fight about green and red, huh?

Dan

[ex98thdrill]

Dan, the thing about some of the farm tractors is that you can restore one at a very low price. If you want to get the younger people in, the tractors is a way to get them active in AACA with limited funds. I don't see where they're any more out of line than artic cat mini-bikes.

[Ron Green]

Quote; "The best way in the world is to tour, and bring along a young person. Once the addiction hits them the way it has me, our car hobby will continue to be popular."

Wayne, hopefully enough of the younger ones get interested in substantial numbers to keep all well, though I have my doubts.

I have officially given up on my nephew (11) after this weekend of which my wife and I and her family went to a lodge on a lake here in PA. I have tried everything to spark his interest (since 4), even letting him take the Amphicar out in the water and drive it around. It doesn't even interest him anymore, just computers and I-pods.

I almost forgot one thing that seemed to interest him this past weekend. His curiously of would happen if you stood on the cigarette lighter of the center console in my wife's Bonneville SSE. Seems that once the lighter element broke off, then stuck on, it was only a matter of minutes until the wiring harness's started catching on fire. A very interesting experiment.

[stock_steve]

Ouch.

That reminds me a bit of a few years ago when my son decided that one of the knobs of my 1960 VW Beetle's original "Sapphire" AM radio would be a good thing to step on to help support himself when waving a flag out of the open sunroof during a little town parade. No cooked wiring, though a floppy, useless knob (busted off internally) did result...

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bob and Dan,

I have to disagree with you guys on this one! AACA is a unique club as it is open to the vast array of vehicles that make up the hobby. Other clubs specially in one marquee or one one vintage. We do not have to duplicate what they do.

AACA must think about all sorts of ideas on how we grow the business of the club. For the majority of the members, issues of putting out a magazine, providing insurance, lobbying efforts, etc. are not a concern. For your Board of Directors and our staff it is a daily concern. The quickest way for our club to eventually fail is to not open our eyes to new ideas.

This being said, there may be a way to "have our cake and eat it to" and we are exploring those opportunities. The larger our "customer" base is, the greater opportunity we have to expose our hobby to others and to insure its future.

I have painfully seen first hand what happens to successful organizations that feel they have no need to change. It is absolutely a forumla for failure...IMHO!

Steve

[poci1957]

Steve, certainly your comments here do not indicate you are considering somehow accommodating the modified/street rod crowd? I hope not, it would kill me for Hershey to turn into a large, hopeless exhibition of juvenile automotive mods and careless, arrogant treatment of old cars like one sees everywhere else. Todd C

[Steve Moskowitz]

<span style="font-weight: bold">NO!</span> However, AACA needs to have an open mind about classes and categories that may or may not be a part of the AACA we know today. I am sure the board will zealously protect our mission in the old car hobby. However, there are many other business opportunities that may help support AACA and the board has the duty to at least explore them.

Remember, it was not that long ago that many AACA members objected to car's in the 40's being a part of AACA! Where would we be today without post-war cars.

<span style="font-weight: bold">AGAIN, please no hysteria or misinterpretation of my remarks. I was just attempting (maybe feebly) to say the the board of directors is agressively looking at ways to strengthen the club and that status quo in how we operate would be detrimental to the future of the club. Nothing more!</span>