JBMonteray Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I recently bought a 1905 Orient Buckboard that was a project kit built a number of years ago in the sixties. The now deceased (at 94) builder lived near Rochester, NY and was friends with George Selden. Selden gave the builder an original Selden brass patent plate which he affixed to the car. I have learned that 10 auto manufacturers from the early manufacturing period paid royalties to Seldon for a while (presumably he issued one of these tags at that time) but that Selden never built any cars commercially. My question is: Does anyone know how common this brass tag might be? Thanks, JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 They are around, but rare, I found one with a toe board from a Pope-Hartford years ago. Swapped with a friend who has a Pope for another original Selden Plate. I think there were far more that ten manufactures paying royalties to Selden. Tom Reese had a fine feature on the plates in Antique Automobile in the last five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 They were also reproduced in the 1960s I believe. We restored a 1908 Pullman with an original plate. I believe a Selden car was produced, not sure of its lineage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Originals are stamped brass with a serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 When Selden forced his patent issue on Henry Ford (and others who didn't feel they owed Geo. Selden one cent), Selden was forced to actually construct one of his "motor-wagons" to support his case in the patent suit.There were also Selden Trucks manufactured from the 'teens to about 1932, in their last days, the company was listed as "Maccar -Selden- Hahn"; don't know if there's any connection.The "licensed" manufacturers made up a group known as the ALAM: Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers...this was the bunch that Old Henry thumbed his nose at, with the legal battle taking place around 1911...Had the courts upheld his patent claim to "the automobile", he sure would've been sitting pretty ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Selden DID produce cars for sale commercially, although never in large volume. There was a beautiful 1911 model at the Grand National Meet in Buffalo in July, from Leicester NY, a Mr. Mahoney owned it. It was a large, powerful, well built higher-end car. I spoke with him about it for awhile.My 1908 Buick Model "S" still has its original plate, also.All the other manufacturers (more than 10, definitely) reluctantly paid the royalties, but Henry Ford's high volume made it worthwhile for him to fight, and eventually defeat, the patent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Wonder if you have all seen an original Selden Patent Plate? Click on the attachnent to view one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tractorbob Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I recently bought a 1905 Orient Buckboard that was a project kit built a number of years ago in the sixties. The now deceased (at 94) builder lived near Rochester, NY and was friends with George Selden. Selden gave the builder an original Selden brass patent plate which he affixed to the car. I have learned that 10 auto manufacturers from the early manufacturing period paid royalties to Seldon for a while (presumably he issued one of these tags at that time) but that Selden never built any cars commercially. My question is: Does anyone know how common this brass tag might be? Thanks, JB I am from Clarkson N.Y. where George selden lived.I have in my possession an original selden brass plate with number in left lower corner.There are not many that I know that are not mounted on a vehical.Mine is for sale .Asking $450.00 .It is in nice shape ready to install with original patina.Have a nice day,Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 There was one Selden car built to "prove" that his patented design would run.The first judge upheld Selden's patent but the appeal judge said it only applied to Selden's original 1877 design with Brayton engine and other features that were long since obsolete.It didn't make much difference because by this time (1911) the original Selden patent had only one year left to run. In any case Selden only charged .75% and members of the ALAM got access to a lot of other patents and proprietary information shared among members. So Selden was hardly hampering the development of the automobile in spite of what Ford and others claimed.It is also not well known that Ford wrote to Selden and requested to join the ALAM when he started making cars. Selden told him to come back when his firm was better established and making cars in quantity, in effect giving permission to build cars free of charge until he got going.Ford never did reapply and this is where the lawsuit came in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldenguy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) There has been much paperwork involved on the Selden patent suit and the facts and myths are still going on today. I was the owner of the 1911 Varsity roadster mentioned on a earlier post and during it's restoration I did extensive research into the family and company. George Baldwin Selden's son Henry took over the company in the early '20's(George died in 1922). The car production stopped in 1913 with the few left over models rebadged to be 1914s. About 1913 the Selden truck business started and continued into the late 20's when it merged as afore mentioned and moved to Detroit. I visited Henry in 1956 at his estate 14 miles from my home. At the time I was trying to purchase his original 1910 Selden touring car, the car was not available! We did have a very lengthy conversation about his fathers company, but after awhile I noticed a very "bitter" attitude towards Ford. Never the less it was a learning experience for a then young car guy and left a lasting impression with me. There are only six known Selden autos left here in the states scattered from California to New Hampshire. I have been fortunate to be able to view all of these cars. I started to delve into the arguably most famous and celebrated patent infringement suit in history, but I got bored with all the legal "lingo".After all Ford could hire the finest lawyers, and Selden was a lawyer himself, albeit a patent attorney. I did not persue this any further. All of the genuine Selden plates have a series of small numbers stamped on the lower left hand corner. These plates were issued to the licensed manufacturers in blocks that matched their estimated production run. As also mentioned Tom Reese did a commendable job researching these plates.Some of the early repos I have seen have the D in Selden stamped backwards I have one of these in my collection of several plates.I have not seen a repo with these small numbers stamped in, but they may exist.These are just my observations thru the years and I don't pretend to be an authority but only wish to help someone out as many have helped me thru the years--- Bob Mahoney Edited December 8, 2009 by Seldenguy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Bob, Is it true the reproduction plates are cast? My original is stamped brass #215026, if that could be connected to a brand it would be nice to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldenguy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Bob-- I have never seen a cast Selden plate.I have taken numbers from cars and sent them to Tom Reese and many other hobbyists have also. From all this info some semblence of order can be determined. #210302 was found on a 1910 Maxwell,#218452 was also found on a 1910 Maxwell. So we can assume that your #215026 was on a 1910 Maxwell. This is the best that can be done.You had an original from a Pope,traded to a guy with a Pope, were they the same year? If not we have a flaw in the system trying to identify.Not only the brand/make but Tom and his cronies found you the year! Glad to be able to solve your riddle. ---Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rohn Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 there is one for sale on the buy sell forum here ...http://forums.aaca.org/f119/original-selden-brass-plate-273374.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The last few original Selden plates that I've seen on Ebay have gone for around 175-200. Maybe they've gone up in value. I think it is difficult to identify the car that a plate might have been on when new, but that is an interesting concept, the "blocks" of numbers. These are neat historical pieces for sure. David Coco Winchester Va. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Thanks Bob! I'm happy to know I have aMaxwell Selden plate, the plant was about 45 minutes from me. The Pope Selden plate I had was attached to an under seat door with the Pope Hartford patent plate under it. I can't prove it was a correct piece for the 1906 Pope Hartford, but it was the ONLY piece missing from the car and it fit like a glove when placed on the car. The finished car graced the cover of Antique Automobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert_Daniello Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Does anyone have a vol. # for the Selden plate article(s)? Is the year/number/manufacturer list posted, printed or otherwise available anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Sept/Oct 1985 was Tom's status report. If I get a chance I will scan it and post tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 ......and I sure was wrong, the plate went for $400, way more than I thought they were worth. It seems they were in the $200 range for a while, as while not plentiful, they do turn up frequently. Sure points out the fact that buying a complete, running and driving car, is less expensive than trying to find all the parts and pieces and plates needed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Mack Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I have a Selden patent plate #75526 it is brass and is in very good condition with no dings dents or bad spots. Does anyone know what it came off of ? It is for sale if anyone is interested. I can send pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 A few months back I also did an extensive search to verify an original "Selden Plate" that was attached to my '04 Cadillac. See horseless carriage section. I was able to get a copy of original Cadillac build sheets from 1904 and the info was amazing. Serial numbers, selden numbers, date of build, body description, destination all authenticated its true construction. Tom Reese also played a big role in the search. His posted articles (May-June 2000, and Sept.-Oct. 1985) in the AACA bi-monthly publication will explain the Selden Plates in great detail. Tom was very helpfull. I also have an '11 Brush that shows evidence of the plate, but records are hard to find. The plate disappeared years ago, but the number appears on old registration. There are many repro plates out there, so buyer beware! Good luck in your search! Skip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Boy, this 2004 thread certainly came back from the dead. Anyway, here is a nice site about things Selden.Hey Bob... did Maxwell use the Selden plate on their early cars? If so, where did they put them?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldenguy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hi Phil, yes it has come up from the dark damp cellar. Maxwell was a participant in the Selden licensing. On my 1905 the plate was nailed/screwed on the half round compartment door under the seat,this door being part of the heel board. The plate was missing off my car, but the mounting holes were there. They were still under the Selden rule when my 1909 was built. But I could never find where the plate was mounted. On my Selden roadster the plate was attached outside on the right side of the cowl close to the firewall, just above the frame.--BobSkip -- Tom Reese did a great service to the hobby when he researched and gathered the info we have available. It's to bad we cannot unravel all the questions that are asked, and some answers will never be found.Regarding the repo plates, I have examined many of these at flea markets,antique shops, and on line at various sites. I have never seen a repo plate with the small serial numbers that were originally lightly stamped in the lower left hand corner. These are the ones that you sometimes have to rub with your thumb in order to read them. You are in a small group of hobbyists that can produce this number for your car without the actual plate! --Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldenguy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Skip-- Rereading your post, I would believe you have an early(pre January 1911) Brush. Having evidence that it had a Selden plate when the need to pay a royalty was found by the appeals court to be invalid in January 1911,hence all payments to the ALAM are believed to have stopped. ---Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Is it possible it was removed before it was first sold, after they realized they didn't need to pay the royalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Or could it be they used up the plates they had in stock as they were already paid for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks Bob.Tom expressed the same thoughts. I am currently trying to verify that the Brush is definitely a 1911 Model F. The "F" model was supposedly introduced in July of 1911. If this is true, then the plate should not have been issued for this auto. After digging through the old files, I found the original 1925 State of MN. Registration card and it states that the auto is a 1912 model. I will have to find a serial number registry to verify a few things.Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sjennison Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I have a Seldon Patent Plate #143323. I was wondering if anyone knows what this may have come off of? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I don't believe there are any specific records of which numbered plates went on which cars. There've been studies done about numbers and years issued (by looking at original cars with Selden plates on them). If anyone knows different I'd like to know too!Selden plates in nice condition seem to bring around $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Nice to see this thread back on top, I've got Selden plate # 215026 I have no idea what it came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Very interesting thread. I have the 1904 Cadillac Motor Car factory build sheet which lists a "Record of Motors and Equipment of Cars" for motor numbers 3250 through 3263. These motors were installed in Cadillac Model "B" touring and runabouts. Motor numbers were consecutive, but selden "license numbers" were not. My 3253 motor had selden #11124. Motor #3254 had #11106. #3250 had #12328. It appears that the Cadillac Motor Company bought a block of selden numbers and attached them corresponding to the shipping date of each vehicle. I would love to have the entire record book to study. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 We'll never know at what point of assembly the Selden plates were attached. Was it one guy or several that got to attach them. My guess is that you got a handful at the start of the day and tacked them on untill you ran out and got another stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambarn Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Caddy shack, I would sure like to see that 04 build sheet and compare some numbers on my 04 Model B. How could I get access to that information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 sambarn, I would be glad to share any info I have. The engine numbers on this log sheet are 3250 thru 3263, (3261 and 3263 were not installed in any autos). All were "B" touring models, All had ABB front axels, and 10-41 or 10-38 rear axels. Two body mfg'r (Wilson or DBW) and all were maroon color. The log also shows a serial number, license number (Selden), sales number, shipping order number, date shipped, and shipped to destination. I will see if I can find an address of the firm that sent me this copy. If your number is different maybe they can send you a copy. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 sambarn,Try this web site;GM Media Archive, Allied Vaughn, Livonia, MI.Attn; GM Vehicle InvoiceGood luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Phil Dumka Carlisle Ma,,collected the complete unabridged history of CadillacProbably more than 40' shelf space,,,I think he sold it to the company,,,Hope someone can shed light on this If I recall correctly,,,it even gave the # of the water pump and suplier ,, on 1cyl CaddysGood luck hunting,,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There is a great name from the past! I remember when Phil Dumka would come down to our Fall Meet in Ridgefield and go home with an armfull of literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty Jean Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 2/12/2012 at 11:06 AM, caddyshack said: Very interesting thread. I have the 1904 Cadillac Motor Car factory build sheet which lists a "Record of Motors and Equipment of Cars" for motor numbers 3250 through 3263. These motors were installed in Cadillac Model "B" touring and runabouts. Motor numbers were consecutive, but selden "license numbers" were not. My 3253 motor had selden #11124. Motor #3254 had #11106. #3250 had #12328. It appears that the Cadillac Motor Company bought a block of selden numbers and attached them corresponding to the shipping date of each vehicle. I would love to have the entire record book to study. Hope this helps Very interesting thread indeed. I currently am digging in my back yard with a metal detector and I have found some parts of a vehicle that I am having a difficult time to pinpoint exactly what it is that I am looking at. I have the Seldon brass plate #43512 (Nov.5,1895) and an ER Thomas Motor Co., Pat. Nov. 8th 1904, Buffalo, N.Y. I believe that I spoke with a gentleman, by the name of Bill Green from this club and he stated that because I also have a “door handle” that it was probably around 1906-1907. It was confusing to me with the different dates on the 2 different plates. I have found many small brass pieces and a large white porcelain license plate dated 1910 with the numbers 2286 VT. The sign was manufactured by the “Baltimore Enamal & Novelty, enameled iron signs company. I am just loving the history and hope to be further enlightened! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 Betty Jean, Was this a car you found by accident or a known burial? Some photos of the bits would be interesting to see. It may be best to start a separate thread on your find. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty Jean Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said: Betty Jean, Was this a car you found by accident or a known burial? Some photos of the bits would be interesting to see. It may be best to start a separate thread on your find. Bob I found it by accident. My backyard is intersected by an old Trolley line and a Railroad and I started metal detecting a few years ago when I moved here.......this is currently where I am still digging. The White Crow Inn used to be directly in front of my home and the Trolley delivered wealthy people out to the countryside. Since I am new to the forum and I am not very good with computers, I like your suggestion to start a separate thread and to attempt to post pictures.........please bare with me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 Quote It is every kids dream to dig up treasure, please post some photos to go with your story. I once bought a 30HP Stanley Steamer rear axle that someone snagged with a backhoe up in Vermont. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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