Incredible old style "racer" with Pierce Arrow V12

[Rusty_OToole]

Built by Bad Chad Hiltz in Nova Scotia Canada for a client. You will not believe what he paid for this amazing car.

 

 

[Studemax]

This will be received better over on The HAMB.

[Grimy]

That's a Seagrave V-12 with dual ignition (2 ea 12-cyl distributors, double-plug heads (24 plugs for 12 cyls).  Seagrave bought the tooling for the Pierce 8s and 12s when the company was liquidated in May 1938.  Seagrave bumped the V-12 displacement from 462 to 531, and built that engine until about 1970!  As I mentioned recently in another thread, while Pierce was in business, Seagrave bought the 8 and 12 engines machined but UNassembled so that they could say they didn't buy complete engines from anyone.

 

Seagrave parts for these engines, especially the very desirable BRASS water jacket plates, were available into the 1980s.

[edinmass]

That build was quite a while ago. Nothing Pierce Arrow about it. It’s a late series engine with almost no parts that would fit in a Pierce 12 engine. We sold them a bunch of parts from the Seagrave generation of stuff we had laying around. They actually did some filming by zoom or something of our shop back in the day and they put it on air. Interesting people who were fun to work with. 

Edited July 8 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Mother said if you cant say anything nice then dont say it!

 

I was impressed that he had a Rudge Ulster in his collection.

[edinmass]

For the official record…….the engine is more efficient as a boat anchor than as a power plant for a race car. Makes more heat than horsepower. And yes……I have owned a bunch of them and have had one in my garage for the last 35 years. 

[Rusty_OToole]

That makes sense if Seagrave turned it into a truck engine designed to haul a heavy truck to a fire, and then pump water 24/7 if necessary.

 

The Pierce Arrow version set records that were only bested by a supercharged Duesenberg.

[Grimy]

I think that @edinmass is "swinging the gate" on us again, as my Brit father used to say.  He is well aware of Ab Jenkins' three Bonneville 24-hr high speed runs in specially-prepared Pierce V-12s.  This build is likely suitable for a very long loop track but not for the Indy 500 and certainly not for Laguna Seca.  I'd like to know the differential ratio installed in the Hiltz build, though.

 

And somehow I don't think his client will be driving that car at Bonneville.

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

That makes sense if Seagrave turned it into a truck engine designed to haul a heavy truck to a fire, and then pump water 24/7 if necessary.

 

The Pierce Arrow version set records that were only bested by a supercharged Duesenberg.

 

Rusty is 100 percent correct, but it was YEARS later with a special. Remember the Pierce 12 was released in August of 1931 and ran 24 hours wide open for 24 hours at 117mph……..(stock)…..a spectacular feat in the era. The Pierce 12 was hands down the most rugged of the great multi cylinder motorcars of the CCCA era. Many V-12’s pumped 72 hours stright at 80 percent throttle pumping water. They ran as front line trucks into the mid 70’s. I’m not aware of any pre war factory engine that could even approach the ruggedness of the Pierce. And properly built, a Pierce 12 will easily run with a Model J. Not in acceleration, but rolling from 35-40 up to 100 it will stay with it……..in the mirror, but it will be right there. We have actually run them side by side, and the owner of the J was flabbergasted. To be honest……my car is just a bit over “stock”. Ok……..a whole bunch over stock. 😎

Edited July 9 by edinmass (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

Ed your secret is safe here.

[Fargoguy]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Rusty is 100 percent correct, but it was YEARS later with a special. Remember the Pierce 12 was released in August of 1931 and ran 24 hours wide open for 24 hours at 117mph……..(stock)…..a spectacular feat in the era. The Pierce 12 was hands down the most rugged of the great multi cylinder motorcars of the CCCA era. Many V-12’s pumped 72 hours stright at 80 percent throttle pumping water. They ran as front line trucks into the mid 70’s. I’m not aware of any pre war factory engine that could even approach the ruggedness of the Pierce. And properly built, a Pierce 12 will easily run with a Model J. Not in acceleration, but rolling from 35-40 up to 100 it will stay with it……..in the mirror, but it will be right there. We have actually run them side by side, and the owner of the J was flabbergasted. To be honest……my car is just a bit over “stock”. Ok……..a whole bunch over stock. 😎

Maybe others have seen it, but I haven't. Could you share a pic of your "over stock" Pierce?

 

[SLDMRossi]

FYI, Pierce was supplying Seagrave from as early as 1936. So while Seagrave ended up with the tooling for THEIR version of the V12 (again, since they already paid for such design changes since '36-ish), the old wife's tale (like New York-banned headlights) that they ended up with the V12 only after Pierce founded is not accurate. We featured such confirming  documentation in Series 23 * Model 4 of The Arrow.

 

Steven Rossi 

[Matt Harwood]

"Hey, I have a great idea for a race car!"
 

"Really?"

 

"See, we start with an 1100-pound side-valve V12 and..."

[58L-Y8]

Since both the Pierce-Arrow V-12 and the Auburn/Lycoming V-12 ended up in fire apparatus duty, any comments on the comparison of the two?

[60FlatTop]

21 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

"Hey, I have a great idea for a race car!"
 

"Really?"

 

"See, we start with an 1100-pound side-valve V12 and..."

Why am I reminded of government specifications for bid?

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, SLDMRossi said:

FYI, Pierce was supplying Seagrave from as early as 1936. So while Seagrave ended up with the tooling for THEIR version of the V12 (again, since they already paid for such design changes since '36-ish), the old wife's tale (like New York-banned headlights) that they ended up with the V12 only after Pierce founded is not accurate. We featured such confirming  documentation in Series 23 * Model 4 of The Arrow.

 

Steven Rossi 

First Segrave V-12's were in mid 1935. A batch of 25 of them. The Pierce style engine remained the same till 1944, then huge changes were made. Almost all early Seagrave firetrucks have been repowered with the later style engines. 

[edinmass]

 

Per someones request......my blue 1936 V-12 1602 Club Sedan. Also my 1932 Series 54 Coupe, now gone, and J-357 also has moved on. Sorry I don't have better photos. 

 

 

 

[DFeeney]

Seagrave's last plant was in the South end of Columbus Ohio.  I am 79 and as a teenager remember seeing the Chassis/eng. drive around on shake down runs.