Who knew it would ever go this far?

[Guest BruceW]

I have always been an avid student of history since I was 8 years old (33 years ago). One aspect I enjoy studying is automobile history.

In 1996, I received as a gift Rector Seal's very informative book on the history of automobiles produced in Maryland between 1900 and 1942 (over 22 different makes). Most of these automobiles were built in Baltimore and the surrounding areas. Surprising to me, the book also contained a very brief and sparse mention (less than a page worth of text) on an automobile built in our county (the only automobile built in our county). I spent the next 5 years trying to gather information on this automobile that was built for 5 years in the early 1900s. Although local sources had information on the company, no person or reference, even in the town it was built, had any information on the automobile. It seemed to have been totaly forgotten locally. Thus I relied greatly on outside sources on the automobile, including very valuable information I obtained from the AACA Library and Research Center.

In my research I met a person in charge of an annual history lecture series in the town the automobile was built. Since that time, I have either given or am scheduled to give my lecture and Powerpoint presentation at four different public history lecture series throughout the county, another at a local antique car club meeting, and one private dinner meeting of an American history group. In addition, it has been requested that I prepare articles for several history publications.

However, the biggest part (at least for me) is yet to come!

I have been asked to be filmed for a television program on my research that will be shown on either the local county cable channel or possibly even the Maryland Public Television. It will be a half hour long televised interview in the studio featuring me and my research with additional filming on location. It is a first for me. Filming in the studio will be done tomorrow morning.

Please forgive my blabbering on so long about something that probably has little or no interest to anyone else here. Its probably because of nervousness and jitters of being on television and hopefully this will help to calm my nerves. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I do intend to include the AACA L&RC as a very valuable resource during the interview.

After giving the first lecture, I assumed the topic would be over and forgotten. Never did I expect so much to become of the topic and to receive so much attention.

Will let you know how it goes.

[1937hd45]

Bruce, You forgot to tell us what the car was, where, and when it was built. The Ingersoll steam car drove through what was later our back yard,sometime after the Civil War and 1875.

[CTW]

Congrats Bruce! Sounds like fun & a great accomplishment for all the research you've done. Keep us posted on how it goes?

Can I have your autograph? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest stude8]

About two years ago I was asked by a mutual employee of my wife who happened to be a Kiwanis club local meeting group organizer if I would present a talk about collecting antique cars.

He said they always look forward to subjects outside their normal range of interest (Charitable efforts).

I did OK I guess, I brought AACA, CCCA, Studebaker Club publications, Old Cars Weekly and Hemmings magazines. They were amazed how large the interest in cars was. Now they want me to do a presentation on another subject I have knowledge of, maintaining pipe organs. I never thought about public speaking as a vocation. Stude8

[Restorer32]

Very interesting post. Those locally built, little known makes are fascinating. We're from York, PA area. 14 makes of automobile were built here. We have been lucky enough to restore 2 Pullman automobiles as well as a 1917 Bell built here. Would love to find a Kline Automobile, also built in York. Thought I had one last year but the car wasn't as presented. Isn't history just what this whole hobby/business is supposed to be about? Sounds like you are reaping the rewards for your efforts. Good for you !!!! Now will you please tell us what the car was ?

[Guest BruceW]

Sorry all....

I guess with all the jitters and such waiting for tomorrow, I completely failed to mention details on the subject car.

The automobile was the Burns automobile, built in Havre de Grace, Maryland from late 1908 to 1912. As I mentioned before, it was the only automobile built in Harford County. It was built by the W.E. Burns and Brothers Carriage Works, often simply referred to as "the Burns Brothers". W.E. Burns and Brothers Carriage Works was a well respected carriage maker between circa 1896 and the 1920s that sold carriages across the US and in some foreign countries.

The automobile was a high wheeler design, probably one of the reasons it ultimately failed in a time when cars were starting to be built lower and longer. It was an assembled car with most parts, except the body being obtained from outside vendors. Schebler carbs, Splitdorf magnetos, and Timkin rearends and bearings were known to be used. Engines varied with both air cooled and water cooled used in certain years.

Attached is a picture of the second model made. It was called a Transformable coupe.

There are many more details but too many to give here. I am hoping to submit an article to Antique Automobile in the future about the Burns automobile.

There were three other unrelated companies in the US that planned to build a car named Burns but non of these are known to have actually made a car. These companies were in St. Louis, Mo; Buffalo, NY and New haven Connecticut. (The company in New Haven was a typewriter company that finally decided to keep building typewriters instead).

The complete list of automobiles built in Maryland between 1850 and 1942 and location of manufacture is as follows:

Steamer - 1850 - Baltimore, MD (steam powered road vehicle - only one made)

Waldhauser and Grill - 1891 - Baltimore (steam powered road vehicle - only one made)

Harris - 1892 - Baltimore, MD (steam powered road vehicle - only one made)

Maryland Steamer - 1900-1901 - Luke, Md

Crouch - 1891-1900 - Baltimore, Md

American and Manufacturing - 1899 - Baltimore, Md

Columbia - 1900 - Baltimore, Md

Schaum - 1900-1903 - Baltimore, Md

Union - 1902-1904 - Baltimore, Md

Pope-Tribune - 1897-1907 - Baltimore, Md

Scott - 1904 - Baltimore, Md

Crawford - 1902-1910 - Hagerstown, Md

Maryland - 1909-1910 - Baltimore, Md

Carter Twin Engine - 1907-1912 - Hyattsville, Md

Washington - 1907-1912 Hyattsville, Md

Spoerer - 1907-1914 - Baltimore, Md

Hamilton Fire Truck - 1909 - Baltimore, Md

Burns - 1908-1912 - Havre de Grace, Md

Lord Baltimore - 1911-1915 - Baltimore, Md

Paragon - 1921 - Cumberland, Md

Steinmetz - 1920-1927 - Baltimore, Md

Dagmar - 1922-1927 - Hagerstown, Md

New York Six - 1926-1929 - Baltimore, Md

Calvert - 1927-1921 - Baltimore, Md

Chevrolet - 1935 to present - Baltimore, Md

[Guest BruceW]

ok... so now I forgot to upload the pic that I said was attached!

(Jeez... I hope tomorrow goes a lot better! he he)

Here is the pic.

(Its a little rough because it is a photocopy from a 1909 magazine. The fold of the magazine to copy is why the front wheels look oblong.)

[Terry Bond]

I received my copy of Rector's book from him personally when I lived in Baltimore and was a lot more active in Chesapeake Region activities. I get up there each March for their annual swap meet, but for many years listened to Rector as he worked on his book. Each "discovery" was like Christmas to him and he excitedly told about them. By the time I actually read his completed book it was like listening to all those stories over again. I'm pleased you are carrying on the tradition and sharing his outstanding work in documenting the history of Md built cars. It's amazing how these things unfold. I once was invited to a school assembly to talk about the history of the automobile, and it turned into a regular event-even spread to other organizations. You should contact AACA Hq and get yourself listed as a member of the Speaker's Bureau and make yourself available to other AACA Regions and chapters. Many of them are looking for good programs, and your's sounds like a winner. Heck, we might even consider importing you into Virginia for one of ours!

Terry

[R W Burgess]

Great job, Bruce. Would like to see a copy of the tape. I'm sure they'll give you one. I didn't know a single celebrity until now. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just be yourself tomorrow. Everything will go fine. Wayne

[poci1957]

Bruce, congrats on your achievement. I am researching two local assembled cars built in Decatur IL circa 1917-22, any tips on research? I have been going through local newspaper microfilm, the files at the Detroit Public Library, and this site, any other suggestions? Nothing on the web and only one known survivor so far. Thanks and best wishes on your TV appearance! Todd C, Decatur IL

[Guest BruceW]

Todd,

Sounds like you have made a good start with some good sources. (The Detroit Free Libray must have everything on the history of mankind as it always seems to be referenced.) <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When you say you used "this site" are you referring to the DF or the AACA site in general? If you havent tried it yet, do give the staff at the AACA Library and Research Center a call. Just click on the Library link on the main AACA page. They were very helpful to me on my largely unknown topic and well worth the effort. I was very pleased with the results I got from the L&RC and support it whenever I can.

Another great source for information are the automotive trade journals of the time... such as "Motor Age" and "Automobile and Cycle Trade Journal". Both of these and other automobile trade magazines carried articles of the new cars, even the small, basically unknown companies. It was from one of these magazines that I first saw the bare chassis and drivetrain of the Burns with a very detailed technical description. The Automobile and Cycle Trade Journal also produced an annual edition that listed with pictures, specifications and other valuable information on all automobiles being sold that year. I was able to get copies of pages of the A&C Trade Journal from the AACA L&RC for the Burns for each year the car was produced. I can also email you names and email addresses (if I can find them) of two individuals from the midwest that have very extensive automobile journal libraries and volunterered to help me when they learned of my quest. They both provided very valuable help with finding information from automotive magazines of the time. Even though I did not know them, THEY contacted ME when they found out I was doing research of an early automobile and offered their help.

Another thought... have you tried the county Historical Society? If you cant find information on the car, perhaps you can at least get some great background information on the company that built them.

Another possibility.. if it has been around long enough..... is the Chamber of Commerce in the city that the car was built. Busienss records are usually kept at the City Hall and or the county courthouse.

Just a few ideas from my experience. I will pass along any more that come to mind.

I'm no expert.. but I hope these help.

Good luck in your search

[1937hd45]

Todd, Step one is to tell eveyone what the cars are, I've got lots of info on cars, and just the mention of the make can jog my memory.

[poci1957]

To Bruce, thank you for the good advice, and I would be interested in your midwest contacts if you can find them. To 1937hd45 and any other interested party, my interest is in the Comet and Pan American, both assembled cars built in Decatur IL circa 1917-22. I have the Standard Catalog of American cars, so the basics are covered, but I wonder if anyone here has ever seen or owned one? I have only found one so far, in Australia. Thanks to all, Todd C

[Guest BruceW]

Well all.... just to let you know.....

We did the taping in the studio today. Turned out to be a fun experience. I was very nervous but once things got rolling, I became a little more comfortable. The interviewer and I got there early and talked over coffee with the cameraman and producer on ways we could do the filming. After sharing ideas for a while, we went into the studio. Three cameras were used...one on the interviewer... one on me... and a third that showed both of us. The set was simply two chairs in front of a backdrop where we sat and conducted the interview in a very casual conversational manner.

I had been asked to prepare questions ahead of time, which I did with notes on the information I wanted to give. This way, I could make sure all of the information I wanted to be presented was presented. The interviewer had a copy of these in his lap and used them to know what questions to ask. He could also follow my notes so he would know when I was finished with my answer and ask the next question. When we started filming they let the tape roll continuously to the end. If either I or the interviewer goofed, or didn't feel comfortable with the dialogue at any point, we just had to say "break", wait about five seconds and then start repeating the part we wanted redone as if nothing happened. The cameras just kept rolling. The five second wait was to provide a good clear space on the tape for the editor to edit out the bad section.

After covering all the questions and answers I had prepared, we reviewed the tape in the control room. I saw some parts I wanted to redo and the interviewer wanted me to add some additional information. We then went back in the studio and added the new footage.

After lunch, the cameraman and I traveled to the town of Havre De Grace where the carriage company was located and spent several hours going to relavent sites and filming the "B" roll. This is additional footage that may be shown while I am answering a question to show the viewers what I am refering to. I am also arranging to have some of the family momentos and photos relavent to the topic filmed for the "B" roll.

All in all it was a fun and enjoyable experience. It turns out the cameraman is very interested..and knowledgable in local history so we had a lot to talk about while driving from one location to the next. I believe that my lecture and Powerpoint presentation still provides more detail than can be jammed into a half hour (my presentation normally takes 35 to 50 minutes depending on the time I have available) but the show should do a good job presenting the important information.... and perhaps interest people to come out to the lectures.

This program will be the first of several featuring the lecturers that participated in the lecture series sponsored by the Aberdeen Historical Trust on local history. After being televised on the local cable channel a few times, the individual programs will be combined on a tape and provided to the county schools. Everyone involved thinks this is a great idea to pass along some great local historical information for future generations. So do I.

During the interview, I also made the opportunity to "plug" the Antique Automobile Club of America and the AACA Library and Research Center.

So that will be my 15...er .. 30 minutes of fame, surely to be quickly forgotten. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A few years ago, I had my own column in a local weekly publication titled "Harford History". In it I featured some aspect of local history that I had researched. I did this for a little over two years until the time required became too pressing andI had to stop. Guess I need to now dig out that two years of columns and start looking for a new topic to present in the next lecture series. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[R W Burgess]

That's it Bruce. I want your autograph before you become too famous. Sounded like a fun deal. Congratulations. Wayne

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Bruce...and Di...

Good job, friend. Had confidence in you all the way. Must be satisfying that your hours of work generated a "great" experience", of which, people appreciated. I know you and Di are really dedicated to finishing a project once started and it came through again.

Way to go, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[ronbarn]

Bruce, another grand idea! How about doing a seminar at the AACA Annual Meeting? The AM Director should be listed under officers on the home page. Split it up to show the presentation and the research approach. I'll attend to get tips since I am doing the same thing for the Huntsville, Alabama built Keller. But I do have one advantage - I own one of the three remaining cars.

[1913Moline]

I would likely be one of the Midwest contacts which Bruce mentions above.

I have over 3000 early auto magazines, but not all of them are indexed... yet. It is fun to help out on odd marques like Burns. If anyone out there has any pre 1904 issues of Automobile Trade Journal please let me know. I have posted wanted ads for early magazines on this site several times, but have never gotten any response. Filling in early issues is pretty tough.

Good Luck Bruce.

Greg

[Guest BruceW]

Hi Greg,

Yes.. you are one of the valuable contacts I was refering to. (I didn't know if you wanted to be identified publicly across the DF... some people have issues about that).

But since he was the one to mention it, I feel that I can talk freely and want to say here that Greg was a great help during my research. Greg contacted me shortly after I placed a post on this DF and volunteered to search his huge collection of magazines for relevant information. He had warned me that all of his vast collection was not indexed and that it may take some time.. but he did not forget.. and he sent me copies of his find, which I had not seen before. Greg's assistance was very valuable and very much appreciated. Even if Greg had not been able to come up with anything in his search, the offer of assistance to a stranger still meant a great deal to me.

Unfortunately, both email addresses that I have for my other midwest contact appear to no longer work. A gentleman named Haynes contacted me and volunteered his services after seeing a comment I made on the net. He told me his great uncle was Haynes of Haynes Apperson automobiles and that his family had a huge automobile literature library. He provided first actual photo of the Burns car that I had ever seen. Unfortunately I have not been able to let him know how my research advanced.

I have always known that old car people are a great group and such willingness to assist stranger with a request on such an obscure vehicle intensifies my belief in old car people that much more.

[poci1957]

To Bruce and Greg, thank you both, Greg I will send you an E mail with details on what I am working on. Bruce, glad to hear the appearance went well and thanks again for your advice. Maybe we will meet you at Hershey someday. Todd C

[Guest BruceW]

Just an update.....

I know this thread originally ran almost a year ago... but wanted to let you know that after all this time, the television program I discussed earlier in the thread is being aired this month (April). Although my episode was the first to be filmed in the series, they held off airing it so that additional photographic footage could be added.

Unfortunately, the program, titled "Historic Harford" did not make it to Maryland Public Television as was originally proposed but it did make it to the county cable television channel. The program series has been running for a few months now and my segment will run twice a week for the entire month of April. Saw it last night for the first time as a completed program and I was satisfied, it came out even better than I expected. Been receiving many phone calls and notes about it.

I am to receive a complementary tape of the program. I have friends that can't view the program because they either live outside of the county or have a dish network instead of cable that have also requested a tape. Then a thought came to me.... I wonder if the AACA Library & Research Center would be interested in having a copy for their archives?

Unless I am requested to do something else with my research (can't imagine what else could happen from it.. its been more than I ever expected), I guess it is pretty much a finished topic. Off to new and other interesting topics. I just wanted to put closure to the thread. Thanks.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bruce,

If you can, please send a copy of your tape to Kim at the Library. I am sure she will appreciate having the information. Thanks! Are you signing autographs these days?

[R W Burgess]

Thanks Bruce, I'm wondering if someone on here could set up a viewable movie reproduction of your program. I've seen the Corvette Forum guys post a Web Site address that had some of the silly(racy) tours they have produced in movie form. That stuff's way beyond me. Wayne

[John N. Packard]

Bruce,

How about doing a seminar on the topic at next year's Annual Meeting?

jnp

[1926]

Bruce glad to here from someone at least doing reserch.?Just getting ready to pull body off the Rollin.Keep the old car talkMost people would not know what a Rollin is

[Guest]

WOW, WOW , WOW, WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R W Burgess]

Welcome to the forum, Pam. Love your "home profile". You must live near the beach, right? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[Guest]

yeah, about one hour and i can be on the beach, in chair, cooler beside me, oil on, watching the waves dancing. its tough being away from family in kentucky for 3 years but a few good trade-offs. i need some rent and cool beverages money so have to sell my great buick...check it out.

this story on this link is just fantastic...wish i could break into the vintage car trade and sell market. meet all kinds of cool and very nice people. i was in franklin va for 1.5 months after isabell helping with insurance claims. nice area.

[Guest BruceW]

Some of the DF'ers that have been on the Forum for a longer period of time may remember this thread. I came across it the other day as I was searching for another thread. It is quite a timely coencidence that I found it again at this time. The story continues......

About a year and a half ago, I received a phone call out of the blue from the fairly new Executive Director of the local museum in Havre de Grace (where the car was built) The museum had received a large collection of the family's personal items from the early 1900s and they wanted to make a display of the items but she knew absolutely nothing about the family, the carriage works or the automobile. It seems that everyone she talked to in town had given her my name due to my research on the topic (I didn't know anyone even remembered me).

So I went to her house and spent several hours discussing the topic and before I left I gave her some prints from my presentation. A few months later, she invited me down to see the new exhibit at the museum. In addition to the items displayed, along one wall was a very nice display of my prints they had made showing various aspects of the family, carriage works and automobile. They were also nice enough to include my name on the wall display.

This was about the same time that I was asked to present a shortened version on the automobile itself as part of the AACA Library & Research Center Seminar at the 2006 Annual Meeting in Philadelphia, which I did.

But anyhow, back to finding this post and the timely coencidence....

One of the towns that sponsored one of the historical lecture series notified me last year that 2008 would be the last year for their series. Their monthly lecture series has been going on for about 6 years (my presentation was given during the first year of the series) and they were running out of new topics so they have decied to cease the series. However, during the final year, they wanted to present what they considered their favorite topics as a kind of "best of the best" presentations from past lectures.

So tomorrow night, I will be (yet again) presenting my research on the Burns Automoibile and related items. And from what I have heard there has been much interest generated and the turnout may be quite large. The company I work for found out about tomorrow night and has promoted it internally for employees wanting to attend as a group by holding a gettogether beforehand and providing dinner for those attending the presentation!

This may indeed be the last hurrah for something that has gone further than I ever imagined on an obscure early 20th century automobile that no one remembered was built (but anyone that has read the previous posts knows that I have mistakenly thought the same a number of times before).

I still intend to provide a copy of the presentation and accompanying notes to the AACA Library as soon as I have time to make the notes more user friendly.

Thanks to all the moral support form my DFer friends over the years. Its been a fun ride.