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Now What Have I Done..... '22 Stanley Steam Car


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Well, what have I gotten myself into this time…………

I have enjoyed the blogs of other restoration projects here on the Forum and have both learned a lot and gotten encouragement from them. So, I thought I would start one for one of my projects. The details of it will follow later.

Have any of you heard the story about the dog that chased cars as they drove by. He barked and chased after them but they cars always got away. Then one day one slowed down a bit and he jumped and bit onto the bumper and held on. Then the dog rolled his eyes and thought, now what do I do!

I recently found myself in a similar position. I think many of us have a wish list of cars of cars that they are keeping an eye on and hope that they may get a chance at one someday. And this one may fit into several recent discussions that have popped up elsewhere on the forum this year.

Things like how nickel era cars are dropping in value. Project cars may be affordable, but restoration costs may be prohibitive. Costs for spares and tires are creeping up. Those “expensive” cars that have been out of our price range before are coming down, but at the same time, there are fewer people with the same interest to share them with. Keeping in touch and following a car of interest for years waiting to see what might happened. Retirement and reduced cash flow can bring limitations. And a car with a back story is special.

So, what would you do when this happens to you……….

-          The car that has been number 1 on your long term watch list,

-          Has an interesting back story and only two owners since new,

       Has been out of your budget range in the past,

-          Is a nickel era car that is dropping in value,

-          That always had a low factory production numbers,

-          Has a high maintenance hour to operating hour ratio,

-          Needs a set of very expensive tires,

-          Was last operated 10 years ago before going back on blocks,

-          Will need an extensive mechanical inspection and service before any attempt at operation.

 

 

And then a letter arrives from the very long time owner that the car is coming up for sale.

What would you do………………..

Edited by nsbrassnut
Title update (see edit history)
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Buy it!   You will always regret it if you don't.  Will there be pain and expense?  Of course, but that is part of the experience.  Enjoy!

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If you can afford it, and give it a safe home? Buy it! It will become a new point of focus. The cynosure of all that you have collected before. 

 

If you can't afford it and give it safe harbor? Let it go.

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Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I agree with them all. If you can afford it and have a place to store it at a minimum, then bring it home. If not, then its better to say thank you and walk away.

Here is the next part of the story. I did call and to visit right after the letter arrived. I did my homework on valuation and market for the car and brought along my notes. We had a good visit back and a look over the car. I left the information I collected with him and he would get back to me.

About a week later he called and named a price which was very close to what I came up with myself. But after a long and sleepless night I called back and said I couldn’t make it work. It was just a bit more than I could handle and still be able to work on it afterward. We were both disappointed. I didn’t even make a counter offer at the time as I wanted to stay on good terms and not get anyone upset.

A few weeks later he and his wife came to our PreWar club summer tour dinner last August that was near his place They did have an interest to see the car remain in the province where it had been since new. I told them my situation, I could afford the buy the car, or to make it roadworthy, but not both We had another good visit and his wife said to keep in touch.

Later that fall I was chatting with another local collector that suggested I might be able to get the car at a lower price than had been previously discussed. And at the same time, he expressed interest in an old motorcycle and some other collectables that I had which might work out to enough to offset the cost of the car.

So, I made another appointment to visit the owner and his wife. Over lunch I made my case and left an offer which was a fair bit less than the original asking price. I didn’t ask for an answer then asking him to think it over. A few days later I received another note saying that my offer was accepted. I then followed up with my friend and we came to an agreement on the motorcycle and other stuff which would cover the cost of the car.

Over the next couple weeks, a space was freed up in the garage and arrangements to pick up the car were made. It came home in late November. I am now slowly cleaning and inspecting the car to see just how deep a hole I may have gotten myself into.  🥴

The last owner did a repaint and replaced the tires in 1950 and drove it regularly up until about 1964. It has spent most of the time since about 1964 in storage and was partially overhauled enough to be operational for a while in 2013 before going back into storage. But overall, it’s still more of an original survivor car than one that has been “restored”.

The car is an American built 1922 touring car (brand to be named later) that was delivered new in Nova Scotia, Canada. At the time its landed cost here was equal to 6+ Ford model Ts. The second owner purchased it in 1948 and kept it for the next 75 years before it came to me. It’s a 130 inch wheelbase, 3,800 lbs. (dry), 7 passenger touring car. Production for 1922 was under 500 units.  And with all that, it still has only 2 cylinders.  😉

So based on my limited description in the first post and the above. What do you think it may be?

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  • nsbrassnut changed the title to Now What Have I Done..... '22 Stanley Steam Car

I think that the 2 cylinder clue might have made it a bit too easy.

Yes, it’s a Stanley Steam Car. A 1922, Model 735B 7 passenger touring car.  A couple of pictures of it are include below.

Overall, it’s a well preserved mostly original car. The original owner put about 5,900 miles on it up to 1948. The speedometer broke about the time the second owner got it. He put new Firestone non-skid tires on it about 1950, replacing two of the original tires at the time. Those tires are still on it and the tread is well worn down so it he may have put another 5,000 or so miles on it over the 75 years that he had it. Those non-skids don’t wear well. So, the total mileage may be 10,000 to 15,000 miles.

It was repainted in 1950 and the paint is showing its age. It could easily be mistaken as “original” paint by most viewers. The interior is original and in good condition for the age and the tattered original top is still there also, although the rear window curtain is long gone. The original side curtains are still under the seat though.

It also came with some of his correspondence file notes. The files include notes from his original search for a steam car (47-48) and his purchase receipt from 1948. There are also some neat letters from his correspondence with a couple of early steam car collectors and parts suppliers that he contacted for advice and information when he started out.

There is even one box of some miscellaneous small bits and pieces which include some NOS Stanley parts that the original owner purchased from the local dealer. When was the last time you saw original Stanley parts complete with their stock tag and price!

The last owner did get part way with a mechanical servicing around 2012-13 where a new Bourdon boiler was installed along with some replacement plumbing and secondary pressure tanks and an inspection and service of the engine. But it has been sitting since 2013-14 and will need all of this opened up, inspected, tested and serviced before any attempts at firing it up will be done.

In the meantime, I’m starting work on conservation of the interior and paint along with learning more about how to service and operate the car and sorting through the small pile of spares and left over parts that came with the car.

So, stay tuned. I hope to share some of the things that I have found interesting in the files with the forum members here. And I will also be looking for some advice along the way as well. 🙂

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Hi Again

Next update. Yes, I am new to ownership and operation of steam cars, but I have been following and researching them for some time. I also spent my engineering career with the local electric utility in the high pressure steam electric power plant field. There is both good and bad in that note. Good in that I know something about what I am getting into, and at the same time, bad in that I know what I am getting into. Many years ago, I did get a neat ride and introduction from the late Art Hart and his Stanley at a HCCA tour. So, I have some idea what to look into and will need to be done.

For Ansacle, yes, I joined SACA through their website last month. I did get an electronic confirmation of my payment, but haven’t yet seen anything from them. Hopefully that will show up in a month or two when the next newsletter comes out.  There are no other steam car owners within a several hundred miles of me so getting first hand help and advice is a bit harder. I would be interested in becoming pen pals with some other Stanley owners who may be able to help with advice in the future.

The previous owner was also a long term member of SACA back to the mid ‘60’s. He and the car have been listed in the SACA roster for some time. It’s the only  Stanley listed from Nova Scotia, Canada.

The car also came with several years of SACA back issues for me to start reading. He also included some of the SACA literature reprints that he collected over the years. I have to finish checking what came with it with what is still available from the SACA library and look into ordering some items to fill in the reference files.

The last Stanley cars left the factor in 1924. The company was purchased and reorganized into the Steam Vehicle company and operated for another year or perhaps two before being shut down and production ended.

Here are a couple of the early entries from Stanley’s files.  One is where the previous owner started to look for a steam car locally in 1947-48. Included in the list is a reference to Dr. Grant from whom he eventually purchased a car. Another reference is to a Mr. Bligh that was not too far away from him. The Bligh lead didn’t pan out, but the files do include a letter to Mr. Bligh from Stanley Steam Car Inc in 1927 which lists available spares from the Stanley Steam Car Inc company at that time.

Enjoy and drive safe.

 

Nova Scotia Stanley leads 1948 jpeg_0001.jpg

Stanley Steamer Inc Parts price list 1927 jpeg.jpg

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Excellent!

If you have not done so already, a visit to the Stanley Museum in Kingfield, Maine is a wonderful pilgrimage. Debbie Smith is the Executive director and her husband Mark is working to bring another condensing Stanley back to life. Good people and a great collection!

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2 hours ago, nsbrassnut said:

 

Hi Again

Next update. Yes, I am new to ownership and operation of steam cars, but I have been following and researching them for some time. I also spent my engineering career with the local electric utility in the high pressure steam electric power plant field. There is both good and bad in that note. Good in that I know something about what I am getting into, and at the same time, bad in that I know what I am getting into. Many years ago, I did get a neat ride and introduction from the late Art Hart and his Stanley at a HCCA tour. So, I have some idea what to look into and will need to be done.

For Ansacle, yes, I joined SACA through their website last month. I did get an electronic confirmation of my payment, but haven’t yet seen anything from them. Hopefully that will show up in a month or two when the next newsletter comes out.  There are no other steam car owners within a several hundred miles of me so getting first hand help and advice is a bit harder. I would be interested in becoming pen pals with some other Stanley owners who may be able to help with advice in the future.

The previous owner was also a long term member of SACA back to the mid ‘60’s. He and the car have been listed in the SACA roster for some time. It’s the only  Stanley listed from Nova Scotia, Canada.

The car also came with several years of SACA back issues for me to start reading. He also included some of the SACA literature reprints that he collected over the years. I have to finish checking what came with it with what is still available from the SACA library and look into ordering some items to fill in the reference files.

The last Stanley cars left the factor in 1924. The company was purchased and reorganized into the Steam Vehicle company and operated for another year or perhaps two before being shut down and production ended.

Here are a couple of the early entries from Stanley’s files.  One is where the previous owner started to look for a steam car locally in 1947-48. Included in the list is a reference to Dr. Grant from whom he eventually purchased a car. Another reference is to a Mr. Bligh that was not too far away from him. The Bligh lead didn’t pan out, but the files do include a letter to Mr. Bligh from Stanley Steam Car Inc in 1927 which lists available spares from the Stanley Steam Car Inc company at that time.

Enjoy and drive safe.

 

 

Nova Scotia Stanley leads 1948 jpeg_0001.jpg

Stanley Steamer Inc Parts price list 1927 jpeg.jpg

I own a 1917 Stanley touring that my father and I purchased in the late 80's.  Over the years we have driven the car on numerous steam car and local tours.  I would never say I am expert on Stanley's but I do have some experience running and driving them.  And I will add a few random thoughts for a new steam car owner:

 

1. Ditto on the joining the Stanley Museum.  I do know Debbie and Mark.  There is no real strongly organized "steam car club" but the Stanley Museum comes as close to being a focal point for the Steam Car Hobby as there is.  FWIW I haven't belonged to SACA in years.  They have a different focus on steam automobiles and have some good resources but not as much focus on antique steam cars. 

2. Try to attend a steam car tour even without your car.  You will learn more about running a Stanley in a week hanging around experienced steam car owners than you will be able to learn in years on your own.  The Stanley Museum doesn't typically host steam car tours but they do list the information about upcoming tours in their communications.  

3. If you go to Hershey there is always a crowd of steam car folks who attend.  It is a good place to ask questions and make connections.  The Stanley Museum has spaces in the Red Field. 

3. Stanley's aren't rocket science but they are a very different than gas cars and it will take some time and experience to become proficient at running one.  

4. Send me a private message and I will see what I can do to help out.

 

The late Brent Campbell who probably had more miles in Stanley's and than anyone in history always told the gas cars guys at the end of a days touring that they only got "half a ride".  Welcome to a new adventure!

 

  

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On 1/3/2024 at 8:10 AM, TAKerry said:

What a great car. When did Stanley stop making steam cars? All of the ones I am familiar with are much earlier than this model.

 

Kerry,  Stanley went bankrupt in 1923/24 and the 1924 Model 750 was the last with the Stanley nameplate.  The Steam Vehicle Corporation of America bought the assets and delivered a scaled down version of the Stanley under the SVC nameplate in 1925 before going bankrupt themselves.

 

Steam cars are incredibly cool.  I strongly encourage anyone interested to join SACA - Steam Automobile Club of America.  It is not a lot of money and the newsletters are worth the investment.

 

https://www.steamautomobile.com/

 

 

 

 

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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Hi All

 

In response to recent comments.

 

The Stanley museum is on my list to check out. They have some literature reprints that I would like to get for my file. I have also seen their newsletter in the past and it is good.

 

I will be watching for a steam tour in the New England area sometime that I could attend as a spectator / apprentice to get some first hand lessons. Most of New England is within a long days drive from home which makes a lot more practical for me than farther down into the US.

 

I only get to Hershey now and then, but will watch closer next time I have the chance for some steam car people.

 

For A Woolf, I'll send a PM soon.

 

In the meantime I spent an hour going through the last file box that came with the Stanley. It was full of old issues of SACA magazines back as far as the 1960's. So far sorted by decade. Next step to sort and file by year.  🙂

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3 hours ago, nsbrassnut said:

In the meantime I spent an hour going through the last file box that came with the Stanley. It was full of old issues of SACA magazines back as far as the 1960's. So far sorted by decade. Next step to sort and file by year.  🙂

If you find you are missing some issues let me know, I have issues from back then. I  would be happy to send any missing ones to you, gratis.  I also have other steam literature such as the one I posted above.

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Hi Jeff

 

I have been collecting steam car reference material for a while. And the Stanley came with a folder containing a couple well worn original owner's manuals and a few reprints that the he collected. I checked the folder and my library and found that I have most of the books that you have shown. I do have the Old Time Steam Cars, one copy came with the Stanley and the Clymer The Modern Steam Car that I picked up in the past. Plus one or two that may be less common as well.

 

Several years ago when visiting Detroit we went to the big King(?) used book store and I found a later steam car reference book titled "The Steam Powered Automobile - An Answer to Air Pollution". The interesting part of that book and why I ended up purchasing it was the stamp inside the book "Chrysler Corporation - Engineering Library". Fun to have the double automobile link. 😉

 

I'll keep your generous offer in mind as I get further along with cataloguing what I do have.

 

In the meantime here are some pictures of the Stanley literature that came with it and some of the steam related books from my collection.

 

Thanks from another Jeff

 

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And another couple items from the Tickle Trunk (a Canadian reference 😊).

 

A couple of NOS Stanley bits that came with the car. There is a small wooden box with various small bits and several envelopes that have or in more cases had, original factory spares that were ordered in by the original owner. The Studebaker dealer was the local Stanley representative also I suspect. I was able to match the parts numbers of a few items to the 735 Parts Book, 1919 version. Others I couldn't find in the parts book, but they might be listed in later books or may have been later parts.

 

When was the last time you saw original NOS Stanley anything these days?

 

 

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I see there are some original prints in the manuals that came with the car.  It is nice when you can have an original (for the shelf) and a reprint (for the garage) of the owner's manual.

 

There is a lot of interesting steam literature out there.   I would recommend the following to any car nut:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Doble-Steam-Car-Jim-Crank/dp/0578464632

 

I can't believe it is down to 195 bucks.   I think the club rate I paid a few years ago was 250.

 

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Congratulations on the purchase of your fine Stanley! I started as a six year old in the hobby with family members who were “steam people” and my first tours were all steam events in 1970 & 1971. It brings great joy to my heart that someone who has never driven or operated a steam car has the gumption and insanity to buy the car of their dreams! Bravo! And I’m officially not the craziest person posting here anymore…………😎

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Hi All

 

Another item from the Stanley's tickle trunk. In the files were these notes from the original owner of the Stanley.

 

For comparison, the factory cost of the car was about $3,800 US dollars. By the time it landed in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, the landed cost with shipping, exchange and taxes was about $6,500 Canadian dollars.

 

And this at a time when a Ford touring could be had for well under $1,000 Canadian.

 

Its not often that you have some information about your car from the original owner 100 years later.

 

Enjoy.

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Hi All

Last items from the tickle trunk for now. The last owner kept some of the his more interesting correspondence in the files for the car. The receipt for his 1948 purchase was still in there too.

Here are two that I found most interesting. Those in the steam part of the hobby will likely recognize the names. Fred Marriot, the one and only who the previous owner did get to meet once. And Clarence Marshall, whom I have learned was a pioneer in the movement collecting, restoring and preserving steam cars and especially Stanleys.

So according to the rules of the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, I can now claim a second-degree connection to Fred Marriot. Isn’t that neat!  😁

And my first issue of the SACA newsletter arrived today. Its now in the book bag for the next coffee shop reading session. 

Enjoy. 

Jeff

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Hi All

For now, my first steps are to clean and inspect the Stanley. The basic car I feel is a solid survivor car which shows its history. The goal for this one is going to focus on a mechanical service and restoration as needed to make it operational again. And to preserve the original interior and ancient repaint as they are part of the car’s history. I would rather have the scruffy appearance and maintain its history than have something shiny without the story.

So, step one has been to condition and clean the leather upholstery. I did some research on methods and decided to try out the Leatherique method. It received some favourable comments here on the forum and I liked their approach of treating first and cleaning second. I think that this will leave the leather cleaner and less prone to being sticky than some of the other methods.

The Stanley’s leather was well dried out and starting to get stiff so I wanted to start there. The first coat of Leatherique soaked right in and hardly showed afterward. The directions said that it would leave a gummy coating which would then be cleaned off with the cleaner afterward. Well, it was so dry that it took a few coats before the gummy residue was produced.

I ended up trying out a modified approach for the this first time cleaning. A coat of conditioner, wait a couple hours, add a second coat, wait overnight add a third coat, then after a few hours clean with the cleaner.

The leather was dry enough that much of the normally exposed surface was still dry to the touch while the surfaces that were somewhat protected did produce the gummy surface. The cleaner and a stiff bristle brush then cleaned off the residue and produced an even looking result. The leather didn’t feel much more flexible, but I do think that it is somewhat improved then when I started. It definitely did look better afterwards.

Here are some pictures of the process on the back seat. The first picture a “before”. The second after two or three coats of conditioner. You can see a difference in the look, the shiny portion is where the gummy finish was produced. The dull areas are where the conditioner soaked right in and the leather surface was still dry. The last is after cleaning with the cleaner and brush. The cleaning cloth was black after a a seat and had to be replaced a couple times before the full job was done. I liked that this approach left the leather surface clean and dry. There should be little chance of conditioner coming off on clothes in the future.

It took a few days to go over the full interior and door panels. It’s a large car and its nearly all leather.

I am going to let it sit for a month or so and then try another application of conditioner and a cleaning and see if it makes some more improvement in the appearance and feel of the leather.

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A couple more pictures to show that the conditioner did start to work its way into the leather. The Stanley used a cobra grained coated surface dyed leather. The coating doesn't make it easy for conditioner to soak in, but it does work its way in slowly. I temporarily removed the flaps that go over the jump seats so that I can do some repairs to worn sections after they are cleaned. You can see the back side of the leather in these pictures and the discoloration of the back side of the leather is the conditioner soaking in. The back side was all one light colour before I started.

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I have used Leatherique a few times and can comment that I believe your approach is perfect. On age-old leather it is all about patience and re-application over a prolonged time...not trying to rush the process in a weekend. You may not be trying to re-dye but my thoughts on that is I no longer think a full strip is needed like they mention. So for touch up, their dye can at least initially be used in small sections if needed. The sheen is very slightly more glossy than original, especially on modern cars and I've occasionally wiped the dye broadly over a surface to blend it until reaching a boundary. I have air-brushed it too. Here you won't probably need this but their dye is nice if too much color loss in multiple cracks exist.

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We had a thread on leather products somewhere.  My vote is Lexol as I'm caretaker for 2 cars that have 60 year old leather interiors that look like new because they have been treated with Lexol once a year since they were installed.

 

However, looks like you are making good progress so carry on!

 

 

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Unfortunately in the end, the cotton stitching is probably severely compromised. My 1917 White took 6 gallons of cleaner and softener. Looked brand new, and 6 months later after use......everything fell apart. Just be prepared that sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. 

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Unfortunately in the end, the cotton stitching is probably severely compromised. My 1917 White took 6 gallons of cleaner and softener. Looked brand new, and 6 months later after use......everything fell apart. Just be prepared that sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. 

The preservation guys will take that switching out and replace with nylon.  Probably better to do it sooner rather than later.

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Hi All

 

Some follow ups to your comments.

 

It took a full 32 oz. bottle of Leatherique to do the initial three coats on the interior. The first coat really "sucked in" and the later coats were lighter.

 

So far overall the stitching appears to be fairly strong. I have experienced old stitching pulling apart during the cleaning and brushing process.  I was very concerned about it when deciding to use a stiff bristle brush for cleaning this time too. But after a trial on one cushion it held up so I kept on going. So far almost no thread pulling from the brushing.

 

That said, there are some localized thread damage on a few areas that were subject to a lot bending, such as the flaps over the folding jump seats and the door pouches. These flaps also used U shaped metal stiffeners which have worn through at the ends of the Us and the threads and binding nearby have also failed. I am going to do some careful partial disassembly and repair there once I decide on the method. Thinking of using some leather patches behind the damaged areas and gluing them in and then re-stitching the edging. I have to test out some water based leather glues first before I settle on which to use. If I don't do something, they could easily tear further.

 

I am familiar with Lexol and have used it on some projects. But my experiences have been a bit mixed on old dry leather. In some cases it left a coating on the leather that eventually would result in mould forming and building up. The top rest saddle straps on the Stanley were replaced at some time and it appears that conditioner was left on the surface. The mould was so thick a paint scrapper would barely cut it off. I think that the important note here is that whatever conditioner you use, be sure to remove the excess after treatment and leave the surface dry. Too much conditioner can leave a sticky residue that gets on clothes and may be prone to mould formation.

 

In the meantime I am actually more concerned about the corners of the seat cushions. Most of them are showing various amounts of wear and the start of tearing where the material folds over the edge wire. I need to do some repair there to prevent the tearing from spreading. I am considering going so far as to carefully remove the seat cushion covers, repair the springs and stitch in some additional burlap and leather backing for strength, then re-installing the covers. I have done it before, but its a stressful project. One slip can result in a lot of additional repair work being needed.

 

Until later.

 

 

 

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After a round of conditioning and cleaning the leather, I decided to Tackle the running boards and front floor boards. The original covering and trim is still there, but shows a lot of wear. The factory literature describes the running boards as “rubber covered”. It doesn’t look like rubber, but more like the usual linoleum that was common at the time.

They were pretty dirty from years of use and sitting, In the past I had looked up how to take care of linoleum and found recommendations to just go with regular cleaning with floor cleaner and then treat it with floor wax. I have been using this on my Hudson with new linoleum and have been satisfied. I found that I still had some cleaner and wax on the shelf so down it came.

The plan was to scrub hard with floor cleaner to get the dirt off and out of the dents and wear in the material. Before I was done, I also ended up doing a light steel wool with floor cleaner scrub as well to get some stuck on stuff off and to get the worst of the age off the aluminum trim.  I didn’t want to go too far and was aiming for a “maintained old” look than factory fresh.

Overall, I think that the results turned out well. The floor and running boards look much better with a hint of shine, but with all the “character” marks still present that tell its story.

One of the items that I found interesting on this one. It still had the two original Stanley running board step mats on the passenger side. Worn, but still present. There are no witness marks on the driver’s side so I think it only ever had them on the passenger side running board. Which was probably the more used side of the car back then too.

Some pictures of the before and after results below.

Drive Safe

Jeff

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