Now What Have I Done..... '22 Stanley Steam Car

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Peter

 

Thanks for the picture.

 

It reminds me that I should have also included a picture of the clamps mounted on the wheel. My Stanley uses the Firestone lock ring wheel which is slightly different. The few clamps on the car that look similar to yours do appear to be the better fitting ones. The others don't appear to be fitting quite right. The point of the wedge is in between the rim and fellow, but the other end isn't touching anything.

 

Some pictures of the clamps on the wheel below.

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Side note. I did run across an article in my Stanley reading so far where someone was restoring a SV later model with the modified engine. And one of the "defects" it had was that later SV model changed the rear axle final drive gears from straight cut that Stanley had used since the start, to bevel/helical cut gears (like many camshaft gears). I think the idea was to have a quieter rear axle as helical gears are quieter than straight cut. The problem with changing to the helical cut gears was that this now results in a significant side load on the gears pushing them to opposite sides against the sides of the case. If there are no thrust bearings, then there can be problems. For this application the designer should have used herringbone cut gears that have a double bevel/helix on the gear, half in each direction of the helix. Quiet and inherently balanced thrust. But an expensive gear to make.

 

The author of the article changed the drive gears back to the original Stanley design of straight cut gears during his restoration.

[nsbrassnut]

Here is another chassis inspection report. I pulled off the two front wheels to inspect and clean the front wheel bearings. Removing the hub caps showed that although the bearings were well greased, the grease didn’t look like what I’m used to seeing.  The back side of the wheels had grease coming out which suggested that something might be out of place with the grease seals. The grease itself was a very dark brown, thick semi-fluid material that I haven’t seen in wheel bearings before. It was very stringy when removed and varsol could hardly cut it.

 

This car is definitely different than anything else that I have worked on. The front wheel bearings appear to be unique and are different than anything else that I have run across so far. The inner grease seal retainer is fixed to the spindle instead of the wheel like most that I have seen. The felt seals were actually missing which explains the mess on the wheels. The design appears to need felt rings to be pressed into the groove on the plate on the spindle. Then a raised ridge on the inside of the wheel hub presses into the groove and runs against the felt to make the seal. Looks like I’ll be shopping for some felt to make some seal rings out of soon.

Edited April 4 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[nsbrassnut]

 

The wheel bearings have only a couple of letters and numbers and no makers mark that I can recognize. And both the inner and outer cones are “flanged” on the large side of the cone. The tapered roller bearings have flanges on one end of the rollers as well. I think the design was intended for the raise part of the roller to be able to roll in the groove in the cone, perhaps as a secondary way of keeping the rollers in alignment. I have never seen anything like this in a wheel bearing before, but have seen something like it in a specialty bearing book once. Fortunately, when cleaned the bearings, cones and cups all appear to be in good condition.

 

 

 

The king pins and spindles are in good condition. There is a slight bit of wear and movement in the spindle on one side, but not enough to get concerned about for now.

 

Next comes removing the tie rod for cleaning and inspection.

Edited April 4 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[Angelfish]

You'll be running Peking to Paris in no time. 

[nsbrassnut]

I spent some time on the Stanley this weekend.

 

The goal was to try to adjust some of the play out of the steering box. There is a bit more free play at the steering wheel than I would like. Currently the play is about 2" and I would like to get it under 1".

 

I thought I had some information on the steering box and how to adjust it, but it turned out my reference information doesn't cover the right year.  Some may have run across the website http://stanleymotorcarriage.com/735restoration/RestorationHome.htm where the owner of a 1918 Stanley 735B has told the story of his restoration. His car had a Warner steering box. I was also able to find some information for Warner in Dykes manuals for that period.

 

The access to the steering is not simple on this car.

 

The shiny box in the second picture is a try at an oil - water separator for the condensate from the condenser on the way back to the water tank that Keith added. The later condensing Stanleys can experience issues with steam oil in the condensate which can eventually get into the boiler and could lead to longer term damage.

 

After I removed the separator box and could get to the steering box I looked for clamping bolts and anything that might look like a form of adjustment. I think that the adjustment is to loosen everything up then turn the big nut on the steering column on the top of the box. This may turn an eccentric bushing to move the steering gears closer together to reduce the play.

 

Well that is the current thought. I was barely able to move the nut and steering tube a bit then decided to put it all back together and think about it a bit more.

 

Taking the steering off entirely is not in the plan for now, as it looks like the boiler has to come out along with one of the boiler support mounts in order to provide room for the box and column to come out the bottom of the car.

 

while I was in there I found writing on the side of the steering box. It looks like its a Ross Gear company steering box and not a Warner. And unfortunately, Ross is not covered in my Dykes book. So if anyone has any information on Ross steering boxes from this period it would be welcomed. I'm also going to post it under Technical and see if anyone there might have some information.

 

 

 

I

 

 

Edited April 14 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

 

I;m copying this over from the Technical section so that there will be a more complete copy of the story here.

 

Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I do agree that it would be better to remove it for a more detailed inspection and service. I did that with the tie rod and drag link. Off, apart, cleaned up, inspected then lubricated and re-installed. However, there is a problem with the steering box. Looking at the car it looks a lot like they installed the box on the bare frame, then built the rest around it. There is no path to take the steering box and column out without some potentially serious dismantling under the hood or perhaps even more. It has to go down through the firewall to come off. There is no removable panels in the body firewall or floor to allow it out that way.

 

Here are some pictures to try to show the problem.

 

Looking down on the steering box, it can't come up and out. The steam throttle is attached to the top of the box and above it is a water level gauge blowdown valve. Beside it with the fins is the boiler water level gauge.

 

From underneath. The steering box cannot come forward and down without removing the boiler burner assembly and fuel supply lines. And then removing steering column mounting brackets at the dash, it may be possible to tilt it and take it down under the boiler support cross member (which is bolted for removal if the boiler is out).

 

 

 

 

And then on top of all that. There may not be enough room to remove the pitman arm from the steering box before it hits the splash apron. Hopefully, if the frame mounting bolts are loosened first it would come off and allow the box to move in enough to get it off.

 

 

So yes, the box needs to come off to be serviced. But it may have to wait until later when I have the burner off when it comes time to inspect it and pressure test the boiler. In the meantime it may just have to stay "as is" for now.

 

Some more info on Ross steering next.

[nsbrassnut]

Some additional information. I spent some time going through my reference library looking for information on Ross steering boxes.

 

I found some notes that described a bit of the Ross history and design. From the notes, its appears that Ross started supplying steering boxes in the early 1920's or so. And that the early designs used shims between the main case and a side plate to adjust the mesh with the worm. After a few years, they redesigned the case to include an external screw and lock nut which allowed for the adjustment of the mesh of the pin and the worm with the steering still mounted in place.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that I have one of the earlier designs.  Here are some pictures from the Gasoline Automobiles reference book, c1940 that provided the additional information.

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Here are some pictures to show that I did have the tie rod and drag link off the Stanley for servicing and inspection. The parts cleaned up well and show only minimal wear. I did find though that there should be some leather "booties" on each end of the drag link to help keep the grease in and dirt out. I have some left over leather from another project that may help make some that will work.

 

Its nice to work on an un-restored car where the bolts are all rusted and stuck. So far, nearly everything has come apart with hand tools and gentle force.

 

Now for a bit of a comparison between a Stanley and Ford Model T from the same era. The Ford weighs about 1400 lbs dry, the Stanley about 3,800 dry. You may see in the pictures where some of that comes from.😉

 

Here is the Stanley tie rod beside a Ford T one.

 

 

 

And the Stanley drag link beside a Ford T one.

 

Edited April 17 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[A Woolf]

I have a 1917 with a Warner gearbox.  We have had the steering box out of our car without removing the burner.  It is a neat trick and basically it involves clearing plumbing out of the way.  Then removing the steering wheel, upper dash bracket and pitman arm and removing the mast (cover) over the steering shaft.  The front of the car must be elevated and them it will just move far enough inboard and aft to clear the frame and burner.  It is important to note that my car has a stock size boiler and burner.  I doubt it would work with a 26-inch boiler in the car.   And your car may be just different enough it will not work.

 

Also, I have regeared the steering on my car to make it easier to turn and more pleasant to drive.  Several other owners of condenser cars with the Warner steering boxes have also regeared the steering.   If your Ross steering gear is worn out a future option you could consider would be to retrofit a Warner steering box and regear it.  Warner boxes do turn up from time to time.   

Alan

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Alan

 

Thanks for the notes. I have heard of some owners re-gearing their steering. One version was to cut and weld the pitman arm. But I'm not comfortable with that approach for mine. But I would consider changing to a different shorter pitman arm if I were to run across one.

 

Mine does have the 26" boiler. It also has the later style "kidney" boiler water level gauge. I'm not sure if that was being used by '17 or not. Together they leave very little space around the steering box.

 

I keep looking at the car and I think that the steering could be removed. Its just how many other bits have to be removed from it to gain enough access. It looks like the box has to move sideways about 2.5 inches to clear the frame (once the arm is off). But there is only an inch between the box and the water level gauge.

 

I am planning to remove the burner assembly anyway to inspect the burner surface. I have some concerns about possible surface rust that may block some of the burner holes since the car has sat for several years. There is a layer of light flaky surface rust on the top boiler tubesheet and I expect to find more on the bottom. The burner holes are small and it wouldn't take much to plug some of them off. Fortunately it appears that the rust will brush off with only a little effort.

 

With the burner out and if the level gauge is removed and a hood shelf removed (to be able to flex the splash shield slightly to get the arm off) and of course removing the steering wheel and bracket it should be possible to jiggle and maneuver the box down out from under the car.

 

Presently the car is in what I consider my "clean garage" and I'm waiting until it gets moved into the workshop later this year before getting deeper into the dirty work like that.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

 

Just a short update this time.

 

After waiting about 3 months I went back and gave the leather another application of Leathertique. It didn't take much to make a "wet coat". The first time it soaked in really fast. This time less soaked in, but the appearance has improved. For the most part the leather appearance has gone from flat black to a mostly satin black. The front and rear cushions and front seat back have softened up noticeably. The back of the back seat does look and feel better, but is still somewhat stiff compared to the rest of the interior.

 

But overall, some improvement in both appearance and texture. A before and after comparison below.

 

 

[r1lark]

Leather is looking great! Amazing what some loving care can do for old leather.

[nsbrassnut]

Well, it bit the bullet and got new tires for the Stanley. As several others have comment in recent month the cost of tires for early cars has increased. And if you live up here in Canada with our beaver bucks, it can be really painful to bring in tires.

 

 

I did a fair bit of humming and hawing on just what tire to order and it took me a while to settle on one (as well as for the savings account to get read for them). Some have mentioned on the MTFCA website about the English Blockley tires that they have been bringing in for Fords. Blockley’s main specialty is vintage sports car tires. But someone talked them into making clinchers for Ts (both sizes now). And someone else talked them into making 34” X 4 1/2” straight side tires that fit a few vintage cars, one of which is my Stanley.

 

 

I did some comparison between their tire and the usual “brand x” competitor.

 

 

Blockley                     8 ply rating,                             load rating 1,700 lbs. @ 65 psig

Brand X (2 options)    4 ply nylon, 6 ply rating         load rating 1,250 lbs. @ 60 psig

 

 

Since the Stanley, fully loaded and with passengers can be pushing 5,000 lbs. the load rating starts to swing the choice. And the bonus, the landed cost here in Canada came out slightly less than for the US based brand x options.

 

 

For anyone interested here is the Blockley website. For some reason I have problems with emails with them, but once I called by phone everything went just fine. And the tires arrive 7 days after the order, and with more air miles in their account then I have!

 

 

https://www.blockleytyre.com/

 

While on the topic of tires.

 

 

Big cars need big tires. Not just now, but back then too. So, for some comparisons, tires for this car have never exactly been “low cost”.

 

 

From my library, 34 X 4 1/3, $36 to $56 each in 1922. A set of four with tubes could be over $200 CDN. When Ford Ts were going for under $500, and a new Stanley was running about $5,000 CDN landed here.

 

 

 

And from the Stanley’s library, 1948, $52.35CDN each plus tax. Keith only paid $600 for the Stanley and he had to get a new set of tires for it which cost mover than 30% of what he paid for it.

 

Here I am in 2024, and the cost of a set of tires and tubes today relative to my cost for the Stanley is almost as high.

While some things change, some things just sort of stay the same.😉

 

Edited May 2 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[nsbrassnut]

Just a short update. A tool arrived recently that every steam workshop likely needs to have lying around.

 

 

Pressure testing of the various tanks and the boiler of the Stanley are high on the “to do” list before going too far into the steam systems. I knew that I was going to be looking for a hydrotest pump and pressure gauges, but wasn’t sure where to start looking for the them. Then on a recent Saturday night cruising YouTube I ended up watching an interesting video where someone used a manual hydrotest pressure pump to actually push out the dents in their motorcycle exhaust system. It was interesting to watch and the process worked well for him. For me the interesting part was seeing that he had acquired a pre-made pressure test system that had all the basics already put together.

 

 

So off to Amazon to check out options and I found out that there is a multitude of pre-assembled manual hydrotest pump sets out there designed for plumbing/heating/HVAC work that I didn’t know about. After some humming and hawing I settled on a mid cost range one that looked like a good match for my needs. It’s rated to 750 psig test pressure which will cover the range of test pressures that I’m considering for the Stanley. This is a bit less than a new boiler would be tested at, but is enough to be able to test at 10% over the safety valve working pressure of 550 psig.

 

The pump came with a test hose with a refrigeration system connector when I would prefer to use regular NPT and compression fittings for test connections. So off to Princess Auto (our version of Harbour Freight) for a regular hydraulic pressure hose and fittings. Now to start checking the leftovers box to see if I have enough small pipe fittings to make up some test connections. Then it will be time find a small tank or two to carefully practice on.

 

Slowly getting closer to actually putting a wrench on the Stanley’s steam systems.

Edited Friday at 12:28 AM by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Sounds like fun!