19th century single cylinder

[seanpk]

Further to my previous posts re: late 19th century single cylinders (https://forums.aaca.org/topic/403934-crest-engines/ and https://forums.aaca.org/topic/403886-engine-identification/)

 

We're on the way with the bottom end and now moving to the external combustion chamber with valves.....I think!

 

Can anyone point me to some internal detail or description of how engines like the De Dion Bouton managed the intake and exhaust? I generally only see a single 'valve' rod coming up to the combustion chamber on these engines?

 

https://www.yesterdays.nl/product/de-dion-bouton-1897-tricycle-2901/

 

 

 

 

[arcticbuicks]

That looks to have a intake valve spring only ,where the suction on the intake stroke pulls the intake valve open ,much like the early stationary engine have also ,the spring is quite weak ,and no pushrod needed 

[arcticbuicks]

Some small engines that era with the suction intake valve  style were also "hit and miss" but maybe not your particular engine  .....where they would get up to a calibrated Rpm ......and a centrifugal weight would move a cam or level to hold the exhaust valve open ,and the flywheels would keep the engine rotating until there was a load on it........during this time there would be no suction to draw intake valve open or draw any fuel in cylinder  ,rpm would slow down ......the centrifugal weight release holding the exhaust valve open .......and it would start firing again ,I think also helped cool the cylinder when it was just moving air in and out of cylinder but not firing .

[dictator27]

30 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

That looks to have a intake valve spring only ,where the suction on the intake stroke pulls the intake valve open ,much like the early stationary engine have also ,the spring is quite weak ,and no pushrod needed 

Referred to as an "atmospheric" intake valve.

[seanpk]

So from our original image (which is all we have!) the spring at the top of the combustion chamber could be the 'atmospheric' intake and the rod from the bottom is activating the exhaust. In its simplest form could the exhaust valve be timed from the crank shaft to open every second compression stroke? But wouldn't the intake draw in on every down stoke?

 

The note on the photo says 'note the mechanically operated inlet valve' - this must mean just an adjustment though? 

 

Is this what we're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOE_engine#:~:text=The earliest IOE layouts used,down on the inlet stroke. The annotated image shows a push rod which I'm presuming is opening the exhaust valve?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by seanpk (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

It would not open on the power stoke when the gases were burning and pushing the piston down.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Atmospheric intake valves typically had a 6 to 8 lb. valve spring. Enough to pull the valve closed but not enough to hold it against atmospheric pressure. When the piston went down on the intake stroke it sucked the valve open and filled the cylinder with fuel and air. When the piston stopped and headed back up, the spring closed the valve and then compression held it closed, until after the exhaust stroke was completed and the exhaust valve closed.

This system worked all right up to about 2000 RPM . As engine speeds got faster they had to go to a mechanically opened intake.

Exhaust valve always had to be opened mechanically against combustion pressure.

One early motorist said he took out the intake valve and polished the valve stem with "Bluebell" metal polish every week or 2. Otherwise it tended to get gummy and stick.

[1912Staver]

I think that very early car in your photo has both inlet and exhaust mechanicaly operated. It's hard to see , but I am pretty sure even that lower valve  { exhaust ?} has a push rod. { I over E configuration ?

Edited October 28, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

the exhaust valve would have to have a push rod.......these engines.......only had no push rod on the intake valve.......i think the top is the exhaust 

Edited October 28, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[seanpk]

Is the upper rod likely to be an inlet push rod for an engine of 1898? Or is more likely to do with starting? see : 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by seanpk (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

first pics .......I see  there is a chain connected to the exhaust rod....I did mention some of these engines were a hit and miss engine {usually controlled by a centrifugal  weight} .......this one could be a manual controlled hit and miss......and then likely goes to a foot or hand control........to hold the exhaust valve open........this way the engine would act the same as a stationary hit and miss engine......in the "miss" mode not firing .....where the engine could rotate with  little resistance........maybe allowing to pedal .......if it is a bicycle with gas engine..........or possibly if the engine was running you could pull chain and the the bike would freewheel say down a hill release the chain tension on the rod and the engine would be firing again.......so i assume you could also start it this way  if you got the bike rolling and then release chain holding exhaust push rod........is the engine direct drive to the wheel....if it is ......then i can see more reason for this also........also some of these engines really did not have much of a carburetor and near zero throttle control....and nearly just a tube from fuel tank with a hole in it with no type of butterfly or throttle lever .......and petcock on top to fill with gas to start as choke.........so by pulling chain would control when engine ran and therefore throttle......

Edited October 28, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The picture itself notes a mechanically operated inlet valve and the note must date from when the picture was taken since it was written on the negative. It also indicates that whoever wrote the note knew what they were talking about because a mechanically operated inlet valve that early was quite an innovation. Whoever labeled that picture knew turn of the century engineering and I see no reason to question it.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

on the car-possibly it is a rod on the intake but not a push rod to operate the intake valve for the engine to run......but rather it is applied to hold intake valve open to stall or shut off engine and although crude and somewhat backwards would also affect  the throttle and if intended could be the way to control throttle  lol.......as the same can be done on stationary engines-hold the intake valve open with finger and engine with stall.......where there was no ignition switch on magneto style ignition stationaries also.......and if the engine was fired by a hot bulb or other form [as i do not see a spark plug.......or mag with set of points in cylinder instead of spark plug].....then would make more sense......spark plugs did exist.....but not widely used until after 1900..........it also may not have run on gasoline........but fuel that a hot bulb was more used for......... [also possibly by putting engine into a no compression mode holding intake valve open .....fuel would still enter the cylinder and burn keeping hot bulb hot but not provide any real power........vs holding exhaust valve open causing cooling of the bulb...... but this last part would just be my guess as how to keep a hot bulb hot ]

Edited October 28, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[seanpk]

2 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The picture itself notes a mechanically operated inlet valve and the note must date from when the picture was taken since it was written on the negative. It also indicates that whoever wrote the note knew what they were talking about because a mechanically operated inlet valve that early was quite an innovation. Whoever labeled that picture knew turn of the century engineering and I see no reason to question it.

Why do you believe the text is written on the negative and not on the printed photo? If it was on the photo it could of been added at any time?

[JV Puleo]

Because it's in white. This was a common way of marking photos at the time. If you write it in black ink on a negative it will come out white when the photo is printed. In my real work I deal with a lot of old...i.e. pre WWI photos and this is commonly seen.

[arcticbuicks]

i agree also with the white writing on the negative.........and anyways saying "mechanically operated inlet valve" dosnt specify for what purpose...........is it  a more standard actual pushrod operating the valve opening to run engine the same as a later conventional engine ?............or to stall or shut off or even control throttle that is applied at any time engine is running to hold inlet valve open ?.........i think the latter 

Edited October 28, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[dictator27]

I'm leaning toward what arcticbuicks is saying.  I wonder if that isn't a compression release?

Edited October 28, 2023 by dictator27 (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

True enough...It could have had cams that operated the intake valves directly or any number of clever means of doing it. The 1903 Mercedes used a really complicated variable lift system that compensated for the fact that it had a  constant speed carburetor. I had a 1903 Panhard engine that had atmospheric inlet valves and exhaust valves that worked of a camshaft on the outside of the engine.

[arcticbuicks]

I have a really interesting late 1800s gasoline ......no spark plug......no carburetor throttle....throttle is the control of the flywheel weights....that is like no other i have seen as far as the engine valve train and ignition.

it could be called a 4 stroke engine ....that becomes a zero stroke engine while running when it goes into MISS mode.

the intake valve is just a spring.

the carburetor has no butterfly or jet......and only a flat round opening on top to dribble some gas in......and then set a penny over to start as choke.

the exhaust valve operates with a pushrod from a single gear running off crankshaft with a cam lobe......then it gets complicated lol

there is a separate mechanism that removes the exhaust pushrod from the cam lobe [by lifting it away] and at the same time keeps the exhaust valve open when the engine reaches maximum rpm of about 500.

The ignition is a early "trip" magneto [and not a magneto that has a revolving center shaft with gear].......it only has movement of maybe a quarter inch.........when the engine goes into a no fire situation with exhaust valve held open and "freewheels" not firing....and no compression...but still rotating by weight of the flywheels.........another mechanical lever also stops the trip magneto from sending spark.

Levers and little wheels and slide mechanism all over LOL.

there is no spark plug.......but rather a heavy duty set of points in the combustion camber........one side of points is on a shaft......that exits the cylinder head ........this shaft is packed in "mica" to isolate the shaft from grounding out and fireproof material of the time........the shaft is directly in the center of the magneto outside the cylinder head.

everything is controlled by a set of centrifugal weights on flywheel that have a throttle lever control that changes the tension on the weights.........so basically the throttle is the control of the weights on flywheel that in turn activate the "hit" [fire] or "miss" [no fire]

You could say the engine is running ........but is not always giving spark or firing while the crankshaft is revolving and will idle down or freewheel for a long time with no compression by momentum of the flywheel........but instantly ready to begin firing again to increase rpm.........it only fires under load and to increase rpm.....as needed......and along the same principle of the bike engine and car engine pics above......just can be controlled by slightly different mechanical means applied to the valve train to act as throttle control.

On these early engines the only way to control throttle and to stop the engine from running faster and faster until it would self destruct.........is to interrupt the function of the valve train by mechanical means.

Most interesting part of the engine i have.....is it has a sandbox muffler.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

 Here is what is used on my engine for ignition and spark and the entire unit bolts to a cylinder in place of spark plug ,this is probably the earliest form of ignition and likely predates spark plug use,instead of a spark plug has points in combustion chamber,in the first pic you are looking at the round parts with points that inserts into the cylinder head into combustion chamber acting the same as a spark plug  ,there is also little  funnel to lubricate the mica material on the one point side arm shaft  .....has some complicated settings also ,this is called a "tri polar oscillator " to make spark.......the cam lever only has to move a little maybe a half inch and then it snaps back.....and makes a nasty big spark  ,in the pic you can see a little round wheel then a cam lever to trip the mag and open points......this is run by a rod from one of the pushrods .I carefully rebuilt it years ago and it is working along with another identical,bit off for another clean up. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Could very well be that the throttle is controlled by how much the intake valve is allowed to open.  Early 1 Cylinder Cadillac's worked that way. Basically no need for a butterfly in the carburetor with that system.

[arcticbuicks]

Yes,I have seen some crazy ways ......and we have to ignore our conventional training .....and study with an open mind lol

[seanpk]

This is an 'enhanced' version of the image. It doesn't see that there is a second rod under the combustion chamber, also interesting that the assumed exhaust rod is offset from the chamber centreline.

 

 

[arcticbuicks]

i question a few things.....studying the pic.......for one that the top valve and pipe is intake

Edited October 29, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[nat]

11 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

I have a really interesting late 1800s gasoline

     Your engine's system is a make and break/spark governed, (versus throttle governed), and the ignition is, (I think), low tension that sparks when the igniters make contact instead of high tension that sparks when the circuit is opened.

[arcticbuicks]

it is a low tension ,but sparks when the points open......the points are closed until the internal shaft snaps back so to speak loaded with charge and bumps the points open and sparks........difficult to explain but the internal shaft when it snaps back goes beyond stationary position and that is when the points are bumped open.......there is also a set screw to adjust how much the points are opened.........i think the two big springs on the back opposite each other hold it in stationary position .......but one is for when loading up charge and to snap it back fast.......and the other for when it goes beyond its resting position causing the points to open and spark and to return to stationary position.......the little round wheel you can see in the pic .....is offset and has a lever on it.......that is the timing.......pushrod is lowered closer or further to cam.........the engine is governed by flywheel weights.......when it gets up too 500 rpm........the pushrod to the ignition is lifted away from the cam and locks the exhaust valve open.......the engine is still spinning but the valves and ignition parts completely stop moving.......the throttle lever is behind the flywheel and changes tension on the weights to control rpm ........there is also a over ride lever.......and HP can also be changed by settings ..........interestingly.......you do not have to crank this style of engine with a trip magneto to start it.......just prime with gas.......move flywheel to start position usually one revolution drawing in some fuel.......and the magneto is ready to trip......move start lever .....and magneto trips and fires.....starting engine from a stand still

Edited October 29, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Thank you arcticbuicks for your many posts about your early engine! I have over the years read a fair amount about early engines with hot-tube or make and break ignition systems. I even knew someone years ago that had a hot tube car which he rarely drove.

Beyond that, my personal experience with those systems was quite limited. I found your explanations quite illuminating.

[arcticbuicks]

oh good lol ,thanks

i am more and more interested in the cars and motorcycles that have them after myself owning  some other versions of these engines

Edited October 30, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Could it be exhaust over intake and the valve on top is the exhaust? That was not common later but my own car has the exhaust valves on top. If so, perhaps the intake is the lower valve and it worked on some sort of cam to vary the lift of the intake valve. That would have been almost necessary if it had a constant speed carburetor – which it must have had because the butterfly hadn't been invented yet.

[Terry Harper]

47 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Could it be exhaust over intake and the valve on top is the exhaust? That was not common later but my own car has the exhaust valves on top. If so, perhaps the intake is the lower valve and it worked on some sort of cam to vary the lift of the intake valve. That would have been almost necessary if it had a constant speed carburetor – which it must have had because the butterfly hadn't been invented yet.

Looking at the photo it looks like the valves are operated via open eccentrics. If that is the case than varying the valve events would be a distinct possibility using a slip eccentric which were relatively common in the steam engine world. 
 

of course the other means of control would be by interrupting the igniter as was common practice in stationary and marine engines.

 

If it’s a hot bulb ignition engine than the above wouldn’t apply of course

[JV Puleo]

I've never heard of an automobile engine with interrupted ignition. From the beginning they all seem to be constant speed engines. Speed was controlled by some sort of valve related mechanism and/or by shifting gears. They were not flexible engines and that engine doesn't look like one with the massive flywheel that stationary engines had. I know very little about early marine engines but they seem closer to stationary engines than any early auto engine was. For one thing, the big flywheel would not have been a problem in a marine application.

 

I have some very early material...like 1898–1900 that I should take a look at. Hot tube ignition was the norm when this engine was built and you wouldn't be able to interrupt that.

 

Terry makes a good point here...we should be looking at steam engine practice. Far more was known about that and many early automotive mechanical details were based on what was know at the time.

Edited October 30, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

I call the first ones 'contraptions' more than automobiles....before mass production automobiles........quadricycles,tricycles,motor wagons,steam wagons etc.....stationary steam and gasoline engines and or technology was being combined to set these wagons in motion....along with electric ones......and quickly advancing ,and crazy ideas popping up and falling by the way side.......as the better ideas took hold and things smoothed out in general leading to basically the same industry wide platform.........of what i would then call an automobile.

There was not much shifting gears in the earliest ones.

I am sure most were not very practical at first and some quite likely outright dangerous.......when and if they ran........and ended up getting pulled home by a horse.

It isnt neccessary to interrupt the ignition in particular,and i think you are meaning my engine.....in the case of mine it just happens that the ignition is interrupted as it runs off the exhaust valve push rod mechanism,and the exhaust valve is primarily the throttle control when held open to slow the engine or stop acceleration .

You mention a constant speed engine.......there has to be something to control it to be constant speed......and those early engines had some pretty inventive means lol.........sure not all following a industry wide standard.....or should we say 'conventional' ....because that did not exist yet

I think if we could look at each and every one......would see all sorts of attempts to control the engines to be more automobile friendly.........some good and im sure some wacky ideas that were soon dropped.......everybody was experimenting .

These early so called motor cars were mostly single cylinder and of small HP.........and when you look at some of them they do have a pretty massive flywheel for an engine of maybe 7 hp........some you can see hanging down in photos..........it was also the momentum of the big flywheels that set some of them into motion and not stall the engine...... as for lack of advanced transmissions that came later.

That poor quality photo above of a car........thats a pretty massive looking block and flywheel.......the flywheel looks 2/3 the size of the car wheel.

I hope to see more and more and find it interesting to study them in detail and find what odd ways they came up with to do something.

I find it amazing back in those days that some great inventions were driving  out a shack with a wood stove kind of shop.........and today it takes huge companies with thousands of people etc to get an invention off the ground.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

something interesting........is the 1981 Cadillac 4-6-8, V8 engines......had a very advanced system to electronically hold the exhaust valves open,close intake valves and stop fuel/ignition etc.....so the V8 could run on a choice of 4,6 or 8 cylinders.........a modern hit and miss lol..........and chev trucks later in 2008.........ca you think of another ?

Edited October 30, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

12 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I've never heard of an automobile engine with interrupted ignition. From the beginning they all seem to be constant speed engines. Speed was controlled by some sort of valve related mechanism and/or by shifting gears. They were not flexible engines and that engine doesn't look like one with the massive flywheel that stationary engines had. I know very little about early marine engines but they seem closer to stationary engines than any early auto engine was. For one thing, the big flywheel would not have been a problem in a marine application.

 

I have some very early material...like 1898–1900 that I should take a look at. Hot tube ignition was the norm when this engine was built and you wouldn't be able to interrupt that.

 

Terry makes a good point here...we should be looking at steam engine practice. Far more was known about that and many early automotive mechanical details were based on what was know at the time.

Correct. It’s difficult today to get over the mindset that engine speed needs to be controlled at will. Back then It was easier to let the engine run at a near constant RPM suitable with its power output and apply the control further down stream. 

 

This may also help to explain why more than a few early vehicles of that era featured a belt drive system. You could slip the belt and engage and disengage regardless of engine speed simply by using belt tension. It was a principle well understood at the time being widely used in machine shop and factory line shaft systems to drive looms, milling machines, lathes etc. and of course farm equipment - threshers etc.

 

As an aside, one item on the use of a make or break ignition system which, as with Joe I doubt was used to control this particular engine, is that the system was used as a governor to maintain constant RPM - not vary RPM. (though there is an exception to that in regards to WW1 era rotary engines) This was critical with stationary engines belted to drive Machinery. Some systems interrupted the spark, others prevented the automatic intake valve from opening - later of course, they worked on the mixer butterfly. Early marine engines tended to overwhelmingly be two stoke designs though the early Robert’s marine engine, which this engine shares some similarities with, was a four stroke. It featured an igniter type ignition running off battery but was not used to govern speed. Engine speed could be controlled to a very, very limited degree using a needle valve on the mixer. Lean the mixture and the engine speeds up, Richen the mixture and it slows down but only to a very limited degree.  The size and pitch of the prop was the ultimate regulator of engine speed.

 

As mentioned above "hit or miss" was used to maintain constant RPM. The exception would be the famous rotary engines used in the Great War such as the LeRhone, Gnome, Cleget etc. These allowed the pilot to "buzz" the engine by grounding out the ignition to different groups of cylinders. Thus slowing the engine since there was no throttle control as we know it.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

 

Some more thoughts to consider.

 

The early engine is mounted on what appears to be a bicycle frame, and on the front wheel fork at that. The only indication of how the power gets out to drive the bicycle is what may be a flat belt or  more likely v-belt pulley mounted on the left side of the engine. And you can see that it is keyed onto the crankshaft to keep it from moving. Interesting that no additional part of the actual driving system is shown. If the belt was linked to the front wheel it could be challenging to steer.  So in part I wonder if it was someones idea that may never have been fully completed?

 

On the right side, facing back towards the frame is a fitting that appears to be the ignition points. And it is mounted on a lever with a single anchor (hinge point) and a rod up to something out of frame of the picture. So it would appear to have a variable spark timing control. It helps to be able to retard the spark for starting and then advance it for power afterward. Overall I very much doubt that it had any form of "hit and miss" ignition and instead believe that it was a regular constant operating spark ignition based on this part. The engine would be low enough in power that I don't think one would have to worry much about it running the bicycle too fast.  :^)

 

Its definitely an atmospheric inlet valve. And the chain on the exhaust on the left could be for both ease of starting, but also could be used as clutch to when stopping the bicycle (along with) so that its easier to start pedalling again afterwards. Then when you want the engine to drive, drop the chain and get compression along with retarded spark to start. Just think, if it was driving the front wheel and you suddenly turned the ignition off, but didn't release the compression, what would all that sudden drag on the front of a bicycle do for the driver and the ability to steer it on a dirt road?  :^)

 

The engine may not be as old as suspected either. I got to look at parts of a small period bicycle accessory engine years ago that was originally sold by CCM in Canada in the mid to late teens. And it had an atmospheric intake and mechanical exhaust and a spark plug to run. Air cooled cast iron cylinder, separate two piece aluminum crankcase. Similar in overall design to the one pictured here, but only about half the size. In the case of the CCM engine, it was designed to mount in the bottom of the main bicycle frame just above the crankshaft for the pedals, and then drive the back wheel by V belt. I was told by the owner (who as a child drove it) that it didn't have much power and needed to be pedalled up hills.

 

For Articbuicks, I also suspect that your stationary engine is more likely from the early 1900's, such as 1910 to 1930's. The low tension ignition with ignitor points was common and they were still available new from a couple engine manufacturer's here on the East coast right up into the 1970's. They were especially common for small fishing boats and fishing dories. Low tension ignition would operate off a telephone battery for hours on end and could be very easily serviced with a minimum of tools and was cheap.

 

The magneto trip spark I have also seen on several stationary engines. Its common on the slightly "fancier" higher cost engines.  Batteries and ignitors were cheap. Magnetos of any kind were expensive by comparison. Just look at the cost comparison in period supply catalogues for replacement parts.

 

I have one of those single cylinder Cadillacs too. And that engine with its mechanical variable inlet valve timing and valve lift is definitely based on steam engine variable inlet valve and valve cut off principles. And once a throttle position is picked, speed and power can be controlled as much by spark timing as throttle position.

 

And also remember the reason for large flywheels on single cylinder engines. With a 4 stroke design, the flywheel is providing all the energy to drive the car/bicycle/machine for a portion of the process as well as providing the energy to compress the mixture for the next cycle. It has to have some serious moment energy storage capacity to keep the engine and machinery running at something close to constant speed. Early single cylinder engines specially designed to operate electric power generators had extra heavy flywheels to help them maintain a more constant operating speed and hence electric voltage and frequency generated.

 

Interested to here what others think.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

[arcticbuicks]

the bike engine you have is a manual hit and miss.......if you see in the pic there is a chain on the exhaust valve push rod......that goes over to the bike .....likely as a hand or foot control........from looking at the picture it is also the only likely form of throttle control...........

The engine i have is 1899 give or take a year.......and the ignition unit with this early open style started in the later 1890s