Front End Alignment

[Keith Ritchel]

I currently own a 1948 Oldsmobile Series #68 Club Sedan. I had work done on the front end of the car by my mechanic. Now I need to get the car alingned. Does anyone have specs that I can give to the Firestone Store willing to do the alignment!

[R Walling]

 I would bring it to a front end alignment shop.

 

 I bought tires once that Inc. a front end alinement and all they did was a toe in alinement.

[Keith Ritchel]

Thanks

[The 55er]

Here are the specs. 

[TTR]

An age old advise to anyone ever attempting to do or get any mechanical/technical service work done on their (unmodified) antique/classic/vintage car/truck/vehicle : 

Buy or borrow a copy of a Repair/Service/Workshop Manual originally published by the vehicle manufacturer and read it or at least the section covering the intended service, BEFORE attempting any work.

 

You're welcome.

Edited October 17, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Hee-hee. Kingpins.

 

Other than kingpins, setting caster/camber/toe should be in the realm of a chain store alignment. You might have to talk with a shop that does truck alignments. They'll be more familiar with kingpin type spindles or cam-type adjustments.

 

Nice Oldsmobile BTW!

[Keith Ritchel]

Thanks for the advice!

[mobileparts]

As some have mentioned above, DO N O T bring this car to a Firestone store, to be handled by a 19 year old recently fired by a Burger King know nothing….

 

Plus , he won’t have the correct alignment shims and washers….

 

Seek out an old school alignment shop , O N L Y …….

[Bhigdog]

When I had the front end of my 57 Buick aligned the shop had  the latest Gee-Whizz alignment rack, laser this and computer that but had not a clue how to actually make any adjustments other than toe in/out. I brought along my shop manual, some special wrenches I had made and got down in the  pit and talked the tech through it. Came out OK but not every shop will co operate. ....Bob

[avgwarhawk]

A tape measure, string, two floor jacks and a wrench is what I use to set the toe on my Buicks.  Both do not pull left or right due to caster or camber issues.  The toe is set off the rear axle.  Look up the string alignment method. 

 

PS. Shops today set the toe and let it go.  That's all they know because shims for camber and caster on A arm suspensions are no longer. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[TTR]

To properly set any alignment in all, but especially older cars/trucks, one needs to know not only factory specifications, but also what static settings (i.e. is the car to fully loaded with fuel, spare, jack/tools, how many, if any passengers, etc ?) they're based on.

All this information can usually (and often only) be found in the manufacturers repair/service/workshop manuals, hence my earlier comment about obtaining one for each car a person owns/restores. Best investment/tool on any vehicle.

 

Another thing needed is someone able and willing to do the adjustments correctly and thoroughly.

I'd imagine most "corporate franchise" facilities like Americas Tire, Pep Boys, Costco, etc, i.e. "fast-food type shops (filled with teenage beautician/technician staff)" aren't capable, equipped nor interested in such services for older cars.* 

 

For example, whenever I align any post-war American car suspension, I first make sure any and all related components & parts, including tires, etc are in top notch condition/quality**, the weight of the car is as per engineering specifications before making the appointment to local/independent/trusted alignment shop, where they allow me to be involved with the process, if I so choose. 

All this is even more important when I prepare and perform 4 wheel alignments on some vintage high performance Italian sports cars, for which the process might take couple of days and rather than flat-rate fee for alignment of said shop, I pay an hourly rate of their choosing for the time on their rack/shop and assistance of a very experienced alignment mechanic, who reads the computerized/laser results & tells me which adjustments to make or shims to install/remove, while I do all the wrenching under the car. 

 

 

* Like with so many other traditional technology service industries, the ever growing expectation mentality of inexpensive, "fast-food"-type automotive related services introduced/spearheaded by my generation ("Boomers") is just killing the experienced, independent, old-school alignment shops able to work on older vintage cars with nobody willing to pick up the torch, at least around here. 😟

 

** Just because they're new and Made in C***a, doesn't mean they're any good.

 

 

 

 

[Oldtech]

10 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Hee-hee. Kingpins.

 

Other than kingpins, setting caster/camber/toe should be in the realm of a chain store alignment. You might have to talk with a shop that does truck alignments. They'll be more familiar with kingpin type spindles or cam-type adjustments.

 

Nice Oldsmobile BTW!

I agree. When I had my 47 Chev aligned after restoring I took it to a shop that I thought had the best chance of knowing what to do. I still had to accompany the alignment and show him the adjustments. 

[Stude Light]

I was looking for some entertainment, so I took my 1939 LaSalle to the local Cadillac dealer for an alignment. First, they couldn't figure out how to start it....it's a push button start like most of today's cars. I had to drive it on the alignment rack as no one knew how to drive a three-on-the-tree. Then I took my manual and a couple of SAE wrenches I brought and talked them through the procedure - basically coached them through the process.

 

The result....yes, it was highly entertaining. 

 

It looks like you got the specifications you need so hopefully you can find a shop that has someone either knowledgeable or a quick study and willing to learn. Your Olds has the same set up as my car and it's pretty simple to adjust caster, camber and toe with just a couple of wrenches.

 

[arcticbuicks]

Few shops now are experienced to do front end end alignments ...........as a lot of cars  no longer have caster camber alignment .......and some aftermarket offer only offset bolts to get a few degrees......all sorts of crazy methods to try and get close alignment.

[Stude Light]

Oh. And these are the procedures for 1939 Cadillacs. The LaSalle (39-50) would probably be the closest. The basic premise is the same along with steps and process. Just use the Oldsmobile specs provided above. That J-720 tool is just an Allen wrench.

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, Stude Light said:

I was looking for some entertainment, so I took my 1939 LaSalle to the local Cadillac dealer for an alignment. First, they couldn't figure out how to start it....it's a push button start like most of today's cars. I had to drive it on the alignment rack as no one knew how to drive a three-on-the-tree. Then I took my manual and a couple of SAE wrenches I brought and talked them through the procedure - basically coached them through the process.

 

The result....yes, it was highly entertaining. 

Oh you're wicked... 🤣

[Pfeil]

11 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

Few shops now are experienced to do front end end alignments ...........as a lot of cars  no longer have caster camber alignment .......and some aftermarket offer only offset bolts to get a few degrees......all sorts of crazy methods to try and get close alignment.

Here is a typical 2022 sedan specification. After an accident, how do you think they align a vehicle if there is no adjustment? Answer: there is adjustments, and also for rear suspension too.

 

• Front Caster. Min: 2.1. Pref: 2.8. Max: 3.6.
• Front Camber. Min: -0.01.
• Pref: -0.03. Max: 0.5.
• Front Toe. Min: -0.01. Pref: 0.01. Max: 0.05.
• SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) Min: 13.8. Pref: 14.6. Max: 15.3.
• Rear Camber. Min: 1.2. Pref: 0.7. Max: 0.2.
• Rear Toe. Min: 0.02. Pref: 0.04. Max: 0.06.

 

[arcticbuicks]

many newer cars.......not all....but many cannot have caster camber aligned or adjusted.......only tow in or out.......yes those are the specs you show that the alignment has to fall under.......it is nothing saying you can do an alignment for argument.....now look up the adjustment points and you will see there arent any.......here is a lower control arm,mounts to body and or K frame ......show me the adjustment on this ? ......you cant.......but the aftermarket bolt kits will allow for a few degrees.

and many of the struts now do not have adjustment where they mount to spindle.

Simply google caster camber accentric bolts,camber offset bolts etc.......moog advertises bolt kits to take the headache out of trying to do an alignment.......and it gets worse lol....now there are offset ball joints for almost everything ,and control arm bushings offset

Edited October 24, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

A lot of cars started this towards 2010........and many got away from the K frame in the rear also.........and if the accident is bad enough to be alignment concern......then easily a write off.......which dosnt take much these days

Edited October 24, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Littlestown Mike]

OK--I want to avoid the franchise--just fired from McDonalds'--technician. As most of you, I am the expert on my car.  I lack the alinment machine. in the interest of other DIYers---how good/ accurate are the bubble level caster/ camber gauges I se for sale on the interwebs?  I'd love to hear from people who have done this.

 

[Lee H]

1 hour ago, Littlestown Mike said:

OK--I want to avoid the franchise--just fired from McDonalds'--technician. As most of you, I am the expert on my car.  I lack the alinment machine. in the interest of other DIYers---how good/ accurate are the bubble level caster/ camber gauges I se for sale on the interwebs?  I'd love to hear from people who have done this.

 

I use mine frequently, along with a proper toe gage. It takes some time, but I know it’s done right. Plus, I can take it out on the road for a real test, and if I sense even a minor pull to either direction, I can go back and play with the caster or camber as the case may be. Also, on my ‘62, I prefer a bit more caster, and that’s easy to get dialed in if I’m doing it myself. 
 

in the many years I’ve been doing it this way, I’ve never had any abnormal tire wear, so I must be getting it pretty close.

[Littlestown Mike]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:29 AM, Lee H said:

I use mine frequently, along with a proper toe gage. It takes some time, but I know it’s done right. Plus, I can take it out on the road for a real test, and if I sense even a minor pull to either direction, I can go back and play with the caster or camber as the case may be. Also, on my ‘62, I prefer a bit more caster, and that’s easy to get dialed in if I’m doing it myself. 
 

in the many years I’ve been doing it this way, I’ve never had any abnormal tire wear, so I must be getting it pretty close.

 

LeeH---What gauge is that?  Make/ Model?   Have you tried others?

 

[Lee H]

This is the caster/camber gage

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-91000

and this is the toe gage

https://www.jegs.com/i/SPC/827/99361/10002/-1
the camber gage only fits up to 17” wheels, but they make a larger version. 
I did use a very cheap toe gage like this for years, but you could measure 5 times and get 5 different answers. Save your money.

 

[Littlestown Mike]

Thank you....Knowing that a particular tool gives inconsistent results is good information....and saves $$$.

 

Exactly where is " toe" measured?  Some articles seem to indicate that it is measuered at the front edge of the tires--that would put the measurement some10 to 15 inches ABOVE the road surface.  Is that correct?  It would seem more appropriate to make the measurement closer to the actual point where the tire contacts the road surface.

[Stude Light]

Here is an explanation and shows why you measure at the front and rear of the tires.

 

https://suspensionsecrets.co.uk/toe/

 

 

[Pfeil]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:56 AM, arcticbuicks said:

many newer cars.......not all....but many cannot have caster camber aligned or adjusted.......only tow in or out.......yes those are the specs you show that the alignment has to fall under.......it is nothing saying you can do an alignment for argument.....now look up the adjustment points and you will see there arent any.......here is a lower control arm,mounts to body and or K frame ......show me the adjustment on this ? ......you cant.......but the aftermarket bolt kits will allow for a few degrees.

and many of the struts now do not have adjustment where they mount to spindle.

Simply google caster camber accentric bolts,camber offset bolts etc.......moog advertises bolt kits to take the headache out of trying to do an alignment.......and it gets worse lol....now there are offset ball joints for almost everything ,and control arm bushings offset

So, what you are saying is you want me to copy the service manual showing the specs I provided and show how to do the job.

[arcticbuicks]

i am not telling you what i want you to do lol.......every car has specs of the alignment for the way it is built and to be checked when in accident etc..............there is nothing saying you can actually do the full alignment if it out of alignment for some other reason ........beyond tow in and tow out on many newer cars is not very possible without some crazy ....and questionable safe aftermarket parts on quite a few.........most newer cars are unibody built with extreme precision and fit...........and do not have the shims and ability of past cars allowing for major alignment.......what are you trying to align that is so far out ?  .......and why would it be out ?.......as far as caster and camber........i think is sad that a lot of newer cars are built this way.......but maybe we are old fashioned and they do really steer and handle well ........today is also a throw away world .......many people dont even change oil or spark plugs for years .......let alone alignment lol............but then again spark plugs also last many years now ...unlike the past.

 

lets pick a common brand of car .....say a 2020 kia forte......and anybody reading this ....google issues with alignment ......and read the experts saying how it is not possible to do caster camber front alignment changes.

 

There are many other non serviceable parts on cars now .......automatic transmissions with no dipstick and many with no filler tube ......and factory filter not possible to change without a transmission removal and tear down.

 

wheel bearings non serviceable ......throw the entire hub away .

 

ball joints non serviceable ......throw the entire control arm away with integrated ball joint 

 

voltage regulator non serviceable ........throw entire body control computer away with integrated voltage regulator

 

and it goes on and on .....even gas  push lawn mowers now come with oil for life and non serviceable to change oil lol

Edited November 8, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Lee H]

7 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

Exactly where is " toe" measured?

This is the reason modern car toe is stated in degrees. That’s a good question, and I’m not sure of the answer.
 

In my case, I place the spring loaded gage within an inch or two of the tread surface (radials have a rounded edge, and it’s difficult to get to the extreme diameter), and with the chains just touching the floor. Zero the gage, and then roll the car forward until the chains are once again just touching the floor (this time at the rear). That’s the factory procedure for the Model A, and what I use on all my cars. Yes, the reading is slightly less than if you measure at the tread surface, but we’re already dealing with extremely small 1/16 - 1/8” measurements. I’m sure we could calculate the difference, but not sure it’s measurable with hobbyist garage equipment. 
 

There is usually a tolerance given, so I just try to keep it in the middle.

[Littlestown Mike]

21 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Here is an explanation and shows why you measure at the front and rear of the tires.

 

https://suspensionsecrets.co.uk/toe/

 

 

Thank, that is a good general explanation, but it didn't address my question. Toe measured between the centers of tires at 2" above the road surface will be different from the measurement made at the most forward edge of the tire--say 12" above the road surface. 

Sometimes, the best information comes from the oldest sources.  I just checked the instructions for wheel lignment for the Model T.  Toe-on is called "gather", and it is measured at the cenrter of the front tires on a line thrui the hub.  That makes it clear that the measurement is made well above the road surface.  Looks like I was " over-thinking" it again.

 

[JACK M]

On the race cars we use a huge squarish tool that lays on the floor with arms reaching up to mid tire. Looks kind of like that one LeeH posted except that it is homemade and might be better described as a square U shaped thing. Has to be wide enough to be outside of the tires when on the ground.

There is a pointer thing that we put against the tire on one side, then tape measure the other side of the car from that same area of the tire to the upright on the tool.

Swap from front of the tire to the rear of the tire and do the same measurement.

The toe is the difference between the two measurements. Do this at ride height on a flat surface.

So to answer your question. The good ol' dirt racers measure at the mid-point of the tire at its widest bulge. So, if you have a 30-inch-high tire we measure at 15 inches from the floor.

This may not be technical enough for some modern cars, but that tool is handy, and I use it all the time.

The hard part is remembering which way the toe ends up. Longer measurement of the front of the tire than the measurement at the rear of the tire makes for toe in.

FYI, we run about 1/2 to 3/4 toed out on the dirt cars. This jives with the attachment that Littlestown Mike posted. Cuz we are always turning right to go left.

Don't care as much about the straights as we do about the turns.

[Littlestown Mike]

15 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

The hard part is remembering

That about sums it up... applies to many, many things---especially the part I just removed from the car and bagged and labelled, and now I can't find it.