Government needed to deal with transportation pollution? 😇

[Peter Gariepy]

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/
 

 

[Peter Gariepy]

https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/power-trip-story-energy/clip/new-york-horse-manure-crisis-ploayx#:~:text=New York City was a,pounds of manure every day.

[CarNucopia]

Certainly a problem with an excess of manure on the forum of late…😂

[JFranklin]

Free fertilizer! Maybe that is why most everybody grew a lot of gardens.

[demco32]

It is not our antique vehicles that are so extremely polluting, they are only used as a hobby and are rarely driven. If the discussion about air pollution is discussed, then aviation will come first.

If worldwide all airplanes at the same time in flight should have to land there is not enough place to park

[Su8overdrive]

Demco's right, and avgas still has lead, raining down on us, causing brain damage in children, senility in adults.  Reading some of the posts on any forum about "thuh guvment gonna take our cores away 'n' make us ride bicycles 'n' be communists" the latter damage is evident.  We are the government.  We get the government we elect and deserve.  If you don't like the news,  make some of your own.  The lead post above by Peter featuring the article by Ben Johnson, not to be confused with the actor or Samuel Johnson, who wrote 250 years ago "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel,"  shows we've long had transportation drawbacks, and that was  when global population 1.6 billion, less than a fifth today's 8.1 billion, US population 70 million, not today's 350 million.  Every poll of scientists shows them agreeing overpopulation by far our biggest problem, their words "bigger than climate."  But most here gathered are not interested in focusing on over-arching adult problems,  just whining about bureaucrats appointed by those they elect, assuming they even vote.  Always easier to devolve to barroom rants and play us/them, pass the buck.

 

   There was a five-story pile of manure in Manhattan, horses worked to death, their carcasses left to rot 'til the knacker's wagon arrived, the streets paved with indescribable filth, summer a special joy.  But that doesn't mean inhaling carcinogenic filth from carbon fuel power plants and transportation wonderful.  Clearly, a handful of vintage/Classic/special interest/antique/Edwardian/old/collector cars is a minor insult, especial if we triage and focus on curbing population,  as those pesky know-nothing scientists suggest.  But we don't want to address "politics" here,  just whine and buck-pass, play us/them.

 

   UN studies show animals raised for meat and dairy produce more greenhouse gas than all the world's cars, trucks, buses, trains, planes, ships combined.  Reread the preceding.  Despite every global study showing the best way to prevent heart disease, hypertension, cardiovascular maladies, inflammation, diabetes, cancer, macular degeneration, dementia (now termed type 3 diabetes), Alzheimer's is a plant-based, vegan diet like that adopted by the world's leading Formula One driver, Lewis Hamilton,  most people still unable to wean themselves from dairy and burgers.   

 

  

   Anyone thinking the above is somehow "off topic" or "political" should return to playing yeah but and

"theirs are worse than ours;" 

EVs demand imported lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel;

most urban dust is tires,  et al.   

 Whatever you do, do not pressure the Pope and other religious leaders to urge having only "one or none" and adopting, or Congress to revise our antiquated, agrarian tax code from when more babies meant more hands to work the family farm, half of all children not surviving past age four.   Okay, now we've added "religion" to "politics."  Back to insularity, living in a vacuum.

 

 Face reality:  Internal combustion cars are a convenient target for the round up the usual suspects crowd, increasingly staffed by young folks unable to afford a car or its service.  So there's that,  and every nerd bombing around the 'burbs in a clapped out Camaro or "classic" '72 Mercury Montego running way too rich so you can smell it half a block away become the poster boys for our hobby.

 

    We now delete this post/thread,  rejoin our feel good reactionary rants, parsing, equivocation, buck-passing, us/them from the good ole days silver spooners, already in progress.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[edinmass]

My grandfather who was born in 1898 spoke often of all the dead horses he would see floating down the east river in NYC around 1906-1908. By 1920 he said you never saw dead horses in the city. The rendering vehicles were still mostly horse drawn into the 1930’s. According to grandpa…….it wasn’t the sight that bothered you…..it was the smell.

[demco32]

16 hours ago, Su8overdrive said:

Demco's right, and avgas still has lead, raining down on us, causing brain damage in children, senility in adults.  Reading some of the posts on any forum about "thuh guvment gonna take our cores away 'n' make us ride bicycles 'n' be communists" the latter damage is evident.  We are the government.  We get the government we elect and deserve.  If you don't like the news,  make some of your own.  The lead post above by Peter featuring the article by Ben Johnson, not to be confused with the actor or Samuel Johnson, who wrote 250 years ago "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel,"  shows we've long had transportation drawbacks, and that was  when global population 1.6 billion, less than a fifth today's 8.1 billion, US population 70 million, not today's 350 million.  Every poll of scientists shows them agreeing overpopulation by far our biggest problem, their words "bigger than climate."  But most here gathered are not interested in focusing on over-arching adult problems,  just whining about bureaucrats appointed by those they elect, assuming they even vote.  Always easier to devolve to barroom rants and play us/them, pass the buck.

 

   There was a five-story pile of manure in Manhattan, horses worked to death, their carcasses left to rot 'til the knacker's wagon arrived, the streets paved with indescribable filth, summer a special joy.  But that doesn't mean inhaling carcinogenic filth from carbon fuel power plants and transportation wonderful.  Clearly, a handful of vintage/Classic/special interest/antique/Edwardian/old/collector cars is a minor insult, especial if we triage and focus on curbing population,  as those pesky know-nothing scientists suggest.  But we don't want to address "politics" here,  just whine and buck-pass, play us/them.

 

   UN studies show animals raised for meat and dairy produce more greenhouse gas than all the world's cars, trucks, buses, trains, planes, ships combined.  Reread the preceding.  Despite every global study showing the best way to prevent heart disease, hypertension, cardiovascular maladies, inflammation, diabetes, cancer, macular degeneration, dementia (now termed type 3 diabetes), Alzheimer's is a plant-based, vegan diet like that adopted by the world's leading Formula One driver, Lewis Hamilton,  most people still unable to wean themselves from dairy and burgers.   

 

  

   Anyone thinking the above is somehow "off topic" or "political" should return to playing yeah but and

"theirs are worse than ours;" 

EVs demand imported lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel;

most urban dust is tires,  et al.   

 Whatever you do, do not pressure the Pope and other religious leaders to urge having only "one or none" and adopting, or Congress to revise our antiquated, agrarian tax code from when more babies meant more hands to work the family farm, half of all children not surviving past age four.   Okay, now we've added "religion" to "politics."  Back to insularity, living in a vacuum.

 

 Face reality:  Internal combustion cars are a convenient target for the round up the usual suspects crowd, increasingly staffed by young folks unable to afford a car or its service.  So there's that,  and every nerd bombing around the 'burbs in a clapped out Camaro or "classic" '72 Mercury Montego running way too rich so you can smell it half a block away become the poster boys for our hobby.

 

    We now delete this post/thread,  rejoin our feel good reactionary rants from the good ole days silver spooners, already in progress.

Elections don't change anything, not in my country anyway. This government consists of all parties that lost the elections, so much for democratic values and rights.

Of course this explanation has nothing to do with our hobby with vintage cars or perhaps it does.

Our policy makers slowly but surely introduce laws every time and use taxes as a means of pressure to steer the population in the direction they want.

As far as our hobby with antique vehicles is concerned, they are introducing measures that increasingly restrict the use of our hobby cars and make them increasingly expensive so that only an elite can practice this hobby.

Much more could be said on this subject, but that would take us too far from the values and rules of this forum, which we of course respect. The point is that ordinary hard working people cannot actually change anything, regardless of which side they choose in elections.

We can only hope that policy makers pay attention to our heritage, which our antique vehicles actually are, and that there can still be a way to enjoy a nice get-together and a nice ride with our beloved antique cars.

That is what the hobby stands for.

We as antique car owners and practitioners of this hobby can of course also do something ourselves and ensure that the antique cars are 100% technically in order and are properly adjusted so that the impact on the environment is reduced.

Regards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Speaking of horses I see a pile of fertilizer being generated on this thread...

[Peter Gariepy]

34 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Speaking of horses I see a pile of fertilizer being generated on this thread...

💩

[Peter Gariepy]

I posted this to make a point. I don't see anyone defending the rights of horse owners to let their beasts defecate in the streets or leave their carcasses to rot. Nor do I see anyone lambasting efforts in the past to deal with 100,000 tons horse manure, 10 million gallons or urine, and rotting bodies left in the streets and waterways of NYC every year. 

 

The good news:  Public transportation and automobiles replaced horses, eliminating the problem. (eventually)
The bad news:  We traded manure and urine for pollution from coal plants producing electricity, automobile exhaust, and harmful chemicals in our groundwater from the production process.
The good news:  Legislation and regulations have dramatically decreased air and groundwater pollution, even while population and miles driven have increased.

 

Many expect electric automobiles to fix the problem of ICE pollution.  I disagree.  Like the trade from horses to internal combustion engines, the trade from ICE to electric cars will be equally impactful. Especially in the production and disposal of batteries.  

 

Most car purchasers could give a hoot about our hobby. They simply want to get from point A to point B. Electric cars will be their choice for one simple reason, they're better transportation. Subjective, I know, but automobile manufacturers agree, and are going full forward toward electric cars to the tune of $860 Billion in investments ($860,000,000,000, thats a lot of zeros!) As their popularity grows so will their long-term problems creating more dreaded (but necessary) legislation and regulations.

 

What does all this have to do with antique automobiles? I think we can all agree that our hobby "could" be swept under the rug in this transition.  It's up to us to advocate for our hobby by supporting organizations like SEMA and the AACA.

 

FYI: If your not subscribed to the SEMASAN email newsletter, you're not advocating for our hobby.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Peter your post wasn't the horsesh** I was talking about...

 

 

[Peter Gariepy]

21 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Peter your post wasn't the horsesh** I was talking about...

Thanks. Although it wouldn't have been entirely wrong.

[Peter Gariepy]

5 hours ago, demco32 said:

As far as our hobby with antique vehicles is concerned, they are introducing measures that increasingly restrict the use of our hobby cars and make them increasingly expensive so that only an elite can practice this hobby.

Care to elaborate on the measures to which you speak?

 

I drive my antique cars regularly and have never felt restricted in their use. Nor am I familiar with expenses targeting antique vehicles thats don't apply to ALL vehicles. If anything antique cars are exempt from many of the expenses of more modern vehicles including not having to abide by emissions standards, and safety requirements like 5mph bumpers or airbags.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

38 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Thanks. Although it wouldn't have been entirely wrong.

A little horsing around to make a point is fine...

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I think this thread should be dedicated to Trooper.  Lucky for us the issue is contsined to farms and the occasional university today....

[CarNucopia]

11 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Care to elaborate on the measures to which you speak?

https://www.theautopian.com/georgia-hammers-down-on-imported-cars-as-it-reminds-officials-to-ban-the-titling-of-japanese-kei-trucks/
 

[Peter Gariepy]

55 minutes ago, CarNucopia said:

https://www.theautopian.com/georgia-hammers-down-on-imported-cars-as-it-reminds-officials-to-ban-the-titling-of-japanese-kei-trucks/
 

Those aren’t hobby cars.  

[CarNucopia]

8 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Those aren’t hobby cars.  

Really? What are they and how are they less of a hobby car then an Isetta, Messerschmidt or Crosley? I drove a Kei car in an AACA tour last month.

 

Strange they have an exhibit at the Lane Motor Museum at this very moment. (Or that I drove one of theirs in the Lane Rally).

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

38 minutes ago, CarNucopia said:

Really? What are they and how are they less of a hobby car then an Isetta, Messerschmidt or Crosley? I drove a Kei car in an AACA tour last month.

 

Strange they have an exhibit at the Lane Motor Museum at this very moment. (Or that I drove one of theirs in the Lane Rally).

 

 

My apology. I read Kia.  
 

so why not title Kei autos?

 

issue seems to be more complicated.  This is about individuals who imported recreational off road vehicles without 13 digit VIN #s that dont meet auto safety standards.  The number of cars impacted I suspect you can count on your fingers and toes.  I’m not defending Georgia.  But this is anecdotal and not relative to the antique auto hobby.   

[CarNucopia]

27 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

My apology. I read Kia.  
 

so why not title Kei autos?

 

issue seems to be more complicated.  This is about individuals who imported recreational off road vehicles without 13 digit VIN #s that dont meet auto safety standards.  The number of cars impacted I suspect you can count on your fingers and toes.  I’m not defending Georgia.  But this is anecdotal and not relative to the antique auto hobby.   

Candidly, this is the response I would expect. You clearly didn't read the article or you would have seen the answers to the questions you posed. If the numbers can be counted on fingers and toes, my family owns 40% of the entire kei fleet in America. Also, does rarity exclude a car from the AACA's concern? 

 

This category of car is extremely popular among young enthusiasts (who the AACA seems incapable of attracting). For you to summarily dismiss them, particularly as a person with an official roll in the organization, is a bit appalling.

 

Guess what else has less the a 13-digit VIN? My Model T. Look at the language from the Georgia statute below and tell me how many cars on the Hershey show field, if substituted for "kei", would be permanently parked.

 

Quote

Kei Vehicles are not compliant with U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). Therefore, they are not “street legal.” Kei Vehicles are barred from titling and registration.

This should be alarming for anyone serious about preserving our ability to use classic cars on the road. Hemmings felt compelled enough about it to write an article.

 

If an issue is "complicated" as you claim this is, I'd suggest educating yourself before taking a position.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

26 minutes ago, CarNucopia said:

If an issue is "complicated" as you claim this is, I'd suggest educating yourself before taking a position.

Im trying to educate myself. 

 

Is that not the definition of complicated?  "Kei Vehicles are not compliant with U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). Therefore, they are not “street legal.” Kei Vehicles are barred from titling and registration."

 

I didnt say Kei's were rare. I was simply stating that its rare for people to try to register them for road use.

 

I'm struggling to understand how the inability to register small vehicles from Japan not originally imported into the USA for street use, being barred from being registered for street use - is germane to the old car hobby?

 

Maybe a NEW topic should be stated on this subject if you're passionate about it. 
 

[CarNucopia]

16 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Im trying to educate myself. 

 

Is that not the definition of complicated?  "Kei Vehicles are not compliant with U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). Therefore, they are not “street legal.” Kei Vehicles are barred from titling and registration."

 

I didnt say Kei's were rare. I was simply stating that its rare for people to try to register them for road use.

 

I'm struggling to understand how the inability to register small vehicles from Japan not originally imported into the USA for street use, being barred from being registered for street use - is germane to the old car hobby?

 

Maybe a NEW topic should be stated on this subject if you're passionate about it. 
 

Saying you're trying to educate yourself is difficult for me to accept. You interpreting the linked article's headline "Georgia Hammers Down On Imported Cars As It Reminds Officials To Ban The Titling Of Japanese Kei Cars" as being about KIAs shows a lack of inquiry. And, if you are still educating yourself, why argue the issue is not relevant to the AACA? 

 

They are registered by the 1,000's in the US and enthusiasts for these cars are in the tens-of-thousands. 

 

It is germane to the old car hobby because they are over 25 years old. Isn't that the AACA's qualification for eligibility? Also, are cars " not originally imported into the USA for street use" disqualified from AACA eligibility or concern?

 

Respectfully, I didn't start a new topic because all that would earn me is superficial counterarguments from you. Incidentally, it is important enough to me that I emailed Mel about this and received no response more then a week later. I also will continue to pursue this outside of the AACA where the definition of old cars seems more realistic.

 

[Peter Gariepy]

I'll concede.

Sorry to get your riles up.

Still think you should start a topic.  Burying it here isn't gonna get any attention.

[CarNucopia]

2 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

I'll concede.

Sorry to get your riles up.

Still think you should start a topic.  Burying it here isn't gonna get any attention.

It's just a spirited debate, no need to be sorry.

[Su8overdrive]

I see we're mired in parsing, equivocations, nitpicking,  insular debate, rather than addressing the overarching pair of issues I enumerate earlier in this thread which lead to our i.c. cars being convenient target.

[Angelfish]

On 10/3/2023 at 3:48 AM, edinmass said:

My grandfather who was born in 1898 spoke often of all the dead horses he would see floating down the east river in NYC around 1906-1908. By 1920 he said you never saw dead horses in the city. The rendering vehicles were still mostly horse drawn into the 1930’s. According to grandpa…….it wasn’t the sight that bothered you…..it was the smell.

It still smells the same.

[leomara]

I believe it's plausible that the sources of "free"/"pollution free" energy already are known but for political and economic reasons are being withheld from the public. 

[Su8overdrive]

Leo, playing us/them, blaming the government we elect for "withholding" information any junior high student can deduce does not fly.   Despite the New York Times running articles about overpopulation fostering pandemics, 60 Minutes a segment on it causing mass species extinction,  there remains a de facto blackout on addressing overpopulation in the consumer-driven media catering to those whose business model so weak it demands evermore buyers and cheap labor.  Even EVs run on petroleum tires, and use six times the minerals as i.c. cars, including cobalt, lithium, nickel, copper, manganese, graphite, zinc,  rare earths like neodymium and dysprosium, the latters' extraction requiring huge amounts of carcinogens like ammonia, hydrochloric acid, sulphates.  Much of these minerals are imported from politically unstable regions. 

 

 These are among the reasons scientists agree curbing overpopulation by far our most important goal, requiring our pressuring Congress to revise our antiquated, agrarian tax code from when more babies meant more hands to work the family farm, half of all children not surviving past age four,  to instead encourage --not mandate -- encourage having "one or none" and adopting, as well as urging the Pope and other religious leader to do the same.

 

  Meanwhile, UN and other vetted studies show animals raised for meat and dairy produce more greenhouse gas than all the world's cars, trucks, buses, trains, planes, ships combined.  

 

  Unless we're going to continue with yeah, buts, us/them, thuh guvment,  the only way to ensure a future in which i.c. cars, new or 90-year-old used,  are not convenient whipping boys, scapegoats,  is to curb overpopulation and adopt a plant-based, vegan diet, the latter not slowing down the world's leading Formula One driver, Lewis Hamilton, or other athletes inc. NFL players, unlimited cage fighters.   In the win-win-win, every study not overtly or covertly funded by meat/dairy/egg industry agrees the single best way to prevent heart disease, cardiovascular problems, inflammation, hypertension, high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, macular degeneration, dementia (now termed type 3 diabetes), Alzheimer's is a plant-based vegan diet.

 

    Or we can go back to sniping, finger-pointing, buck-passing until we have to pay fees, purchase special permits to operate an i.c. automobile of any vintage.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[leomara]

Su8overdrive, REALLY!  Overpopulation?  Not in this country, if we do not increase our birth rate there will be no one left to fund anything going forward.  Oh, and importing unskilled and uneducated people from third world nations will not improve the situation either.  Wise up.    

[Su8overdrive]

Coast to coast mall 'n' sprawl, mining, drilling, lumbering access roads in "our" national parks Teddy Roosevelt and the other know nothings wisely set aside as untrammeled America the Beautiful.   Who said anything about importing unskilled and uneducated people, Monsignor Mara?  We have plenty already, our K-12 trailing that of at least 16 other modern industrial democracies.  A breeding war the last thing we require with 350 million babies onboard.  But you know better than those pesky scientists. Enjoy the ride,  in your Model A in bucolic New Jersey.

 

https://time.com/6174966/north-south-pole-melting-climate-change/

 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/melting-arctic-ice-catastrophic-effects-world-experts/story?id=81588333

[MCHinson]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:32 AM, Peter Gariepy said:

I posted this to make a point. I don't see anyone defending the rights of horse owners to let their beasts defecate in the streets or leave their carcasses to rot. Nor do I see anyone lambasting efforts in the past to deal with 100,000 tons horse manure, 10 million gallons or urine, and rotting bodies left in the streets and waterways of NYC every year. 

 

The good news:  Public transportation and automobiles replaced horses, eliminating the problem. (eventually)
The bad news:  We traded manure and urine for pollution from coal plants producing electricity, automobile exhaust, and harmful chemicals in our groundwater from the production process.
The good news:  Legislation and regulations have dramatically decreased air and groundwater pollution, even while population and miles driven have increased.

 

Many expect electric automobiles to fix the problem of ICE pollution.  I disagree.  Like the trade from horses to internal combustion engines, the trade from ICE to electric cars will be equally impactful. Especially in the production and disposal of batteries.  

 

Most car purchasers could give a hoot about our hobby. They simply want to get from point A to point B. Electric cars will be their choice for one simple reason, they're better transportation. Subjective, I know, but automobile manufacturers agree, and are going full forward toward electric cars to the tune of $860 Billion in investments ($860,000,000,000, thats a lot of zeros!) As their popularity grows so will their long-term problems creating more dreaded (but necessary) legislation and regulations.

 

What does all this have to do with antique automobiles? I think we can all agree that our hobby "could" be swept under the rug in this transition.  It's up to us to advocate for our hobby by supporting organizations like SEMA and the AACA.

 

FYI: If your not subscribed to the SEMASAN email newsletter, you're not advocating for our hobby.

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

😁😁😁!!

 Some old farts are smarter than the young!

 

  Ben

[Peter Gariepy]

12 hours ago, MCHinson said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10

Good article.

Auto sales are a competitive business.  EVs are no different. EVERYONE wants a one up on the competition. EV technology is a moving target and everyone is trying to find an advantage. Gonna be a bumpy ride.

[R W Burgess]

Boy, I'm glad to see Rants and Raves back!

 

I will have to read more thoroughly when I have more time.