My engine is overheating

[cquisuila]

Bad news for me : my engine 

It is overheating !

It is starting leaks on the water manifold and after through the hose of radiateur cap !

 

I am very sad 

All is new : water pump, thermostat, fluid....

 

 

[EmTee]

Your car is a 1967 model with the 430 cubic inch engine, correct?  Where is the leak - at the thermostat housing?  Was the radiator flow tested?

[BulldogDriver]

Do you have a way of reading the true temperature of the engine/radiator when it does this?

 

Ray

[Jim Cannon]

First, with a new thermostat, you must confirm that it is installed in the correct position. The small brass cylinder must face "down" toward the hot water coming out of the engine. In the drawing below, the brass cylinder looks like it has a coiled spring around it. Your thermostat may not. The brass cylinder must feel the hot water to open the thermostat.

 

 

Leaking at the hose coming out of the filler cap is just because the engine is overheating. Once you fix that, the water from the cap will also be fixed. The water level in the radiator sould be 3 cm below the filler opening. Coolant above this level will get pushed out of the cap and out through the small hose.

 

 

 

 

[EmTee]

Coolant coming out of the overflow tube may simply mean the radiator is over full.  The level should be about 2 inches (5 cm) below the filler neck when cold to allow for expansion when hot.

[RivNut]

32 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Coolant coming out of the overflow tube may simply mean the radiator is over full.  The level should be about 2 inches (5 cm) below the filler neck when cold to allow for expansion when hot.

Unlike modern cars, these older cars do not have the overflow tanks, therefore do as EmTee suggested, leave room at the top of the radiator for expansion.

[cquisuila]

11 hours ago, EmTee said:

Your car is a 1967 model with the 430 cubic inch engine, correct?  Where is the leak - at the thermostat housing?  Was the radiator flow tested?

thanks

no this is a 425

I have tested the flow in the radiator many times and it circulates

 

 

[cquisuila]

11 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

First, with a new thermostat, you must confirm that it is installed in the correct position. The small brass cylinder must face "down" toward the hot water coming out of the engine. In the drawing below, the brass cylinder looks like it has a coiled spring around it. Your thermostat may not. The brass cylinder must feel the hot water to open the thermostat.

 

 

Leaking at the hose coming out of the filler cap is just because the engine is overheating. Once you fix that, the water from the cap will also be fixed. The water level in the radiator sould be 3 cm below the filler opening. Coolant above this level will get pushed out of the cap and out through the small hose.

 

 

 

 

in this way

i tested the thermostat in saucepan filled with water and it opens when hot water

and the first leak (before huge overflow by radiator cap ) is shown on the picture

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

10 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

Do you have a way of reading the true temperature of the engine/radiator when it does this?

 

Ray

no sorry

but it is very hot because the radiator cover is hot !!!

[cquisuila]

I suspect more and more deformed cylinder head !!!!

 If it is exact it's another story in terms of price!!!!

 

I'm really on the verge of abandoning the renovation and sacrificing the car 😪

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

ALL <<< thank you for your support and your help ❤️

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

51 minutes ago, cquisuila said:

in this way

i tested the thermostat in saucepan filled with water and it opens when hot water

and the first leak (before huge overflow by radiator cap ) is shown on the picture

Yes this is correct. 
 

it is good that you tested the thermostat in water in a sauce pan. 
 

Did you replace that o-ring at the place where you first saw the leak?

 

is the engine getting so hot just sitting there in your driveway, not out driving on the road?

 

in the work you did, did you put on new head gaskets?

 

 

[cquisuila]

15 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

Did you replace that o-ring at the place where you first saw the leak?

 

is the engine getting so hot just sitting there in your driveway, not out driving on the road?

 

in the work you did, did you put on new head gaskets?

 

YES for the o ring

when i have opened the top of engine before the Buick restarted last year

 

and i put new head gaskets

 

recently changed parts :

-the climate evaporator

-add water valve on the water manifold for climate

 

I don't know if the engine was heating up before this change.

 

test : I will remove the thermostat from the circuit, this way the water will circulate everywhere and see if it continues to heat up

but i think that i have already done this test

 

> how to be sure that it is not the cylinder head or its gasket ?

 

> HERE I was told to put a condom at the radiator outlet instead of the cap; if it swells it's the cylinder head or its gasket!

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

29 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

is the engine getting so hot just sitting there in your driveway, not out driving on the road?

 

in the work you did, did you put on new head gaskets?

 

 

yes hot just sitting

 

driving on the road < no testing sorry

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[EmTee]

After the engine cools, drain a small amount of oil from the pan and check for any sign of coolant in the oil.  A leakdown test will identify a failed head gasket or other cylinder leak into the water jacket.  If you know someone with an exhaust gas analyzer they can 'sniff' the coolant at the radiator cap to check for exhaust gas in the coolant.

[cquisuila]

9 minutes ago, EmTee said:

After the engine cools, drain a small amount of oil from the pan and check for any sign of coolant in the oil.  A leakdown test will identify a failed head gasket or other cylinder leak into the water jacket.  If you know someone with an exhaust gas analyzer they can 'sniff' the coolant at the radiator cap to check for exhaust gas in the coolant.

yes i will drain a small

 

no i don't know anyone to analyser gas

[EmTee]

Maybe you can find something like this locally:

 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7761077

[cquisuila]

INFORMATION : I don't have any white smoke coming out of the exhaust

 

-------> Otherwise, is it common for the cylinder heads to deform on this type of engine 425 ?

 

and i will test :

 

engine off 

>small draining of oil pan to see -->oil quality   (thanks emtee)

I verified : no problem

> sparks analyse

 

 

engine on

>radiator cap opened

1>I was told to put a condom at the radiator outlet instead of the cap; if it swells it's the cylinder head or its gasket!

2>--->see circulation in radiator---> see bubbles in radiator

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[EmTee]

35 minutes ago, cquisuila said:

see circulation in radiator---> see bubbles in radiator

That could be normal flow through the radiator.  Do you have a way to pressure test the cooling system with the engine off and cold?

 

Have you confirmed that the engine is really over temperature?  195 ~ 205 degrees F (90 ~ 96 degrees C) would be considered normal.

Edited September 25, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Patience. Like Elm Tree writes, your original fill of the cooling system may have overflowed naturally. Cars without an overflow tank can burp out some coolant and find their natural level. If you can see the coolant in the tank after the first cycle you should be good. Get acquainted with where it "likes to be". Mine settle out somewhere below the cap.

 

Infrared thermometers are cheap and a handy tool. Two weeks ago I used mine to look over a Studebaker 6 that a friend was concerned about. The thermostat housing was right on temperature nd we saw a 40 degree temperature difference across the radiator. "Hot" is a hard one to tell by touch. These days 135-140 is the limit I can touch. When I was working with steam daily 150 was my limit. 180-200 is going to feel hot any time. Use some sort of sensor.

 

Elm Tree just posted again. We are writing the same advice.

 

The guy that designed that o-ring sealed water manifold should have a condom pulled over him! I use a refrigeration seal called Leak Lock if I replace one.

 

Two of my cars have temporary coolant temperature test gauges on them. Don't make assumptions. Things are probably better than you think.

[cquisuila]

Unfortunately, it is too hot , no need for a thermometer 🥵

it is really over temperature

On board the temperature gauge indicates this when arriving at H, so much so that it has simply stopped !!

and the cover radiator is impossible to touch !!

 

and this is the first time that it has overflowed to this level of overflow when i stopped the engine !

 

and  i hear a bubbling from the engine long after the engine is turned off !

if I unscrew the top hose a little (radiator to thermostat) > PSCHITTTTTTTTTTT  SO a lot of pressure

 

>  It's a real shame because I've made good progress on the rest of the vehicle (brakes, interior, electricity, etc.)

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[EmTee]

OK, that sounds like a problem.  Have you checked the dwell and ignition timing?

[cquisuila]

2 minutes ago, EmTee said:

OK, that sounds like a problem.  Have you checked the dwell and ignition timing?

no

the engine well starts

and the phenomenon occurs in a non-running vehicle with just the engine running

[gungeey]

1 hour ago, cquisuila said:

I was told to put a condom at the radiator outlet instead of the cap; if it swells it's the cylinder head or its gasket!

 

I have a prescription for this  😂 

[RivNut]

When you installed the new head gaskets did you make sure they went in correctly. They are marked for correct installation.  Each gasket should have indicators written on it. RIGHT or LEFT. TOP. FRONT.  If you did not notice these, you may have installed them incorrectly and you are blocking some water passages.

 

Also, make sure that your air:fuel ratio is not too lean. A lean mixture will cause your engine to run hot.

[cquisuila]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

When you installed the new head gaskets did you make sure they went in correctly. They are marked for correct installation.  Each gasket should have indicators written on it. RIGHT or LEFT. TOP. FRONT.  If you did not notice these, you may have installed them incorrectly and you are blocking some water passages.

 

Also, make sure that your air:fuel ratio is not too lean. A lean mixture will cause your engine to run hot.

right passager

left driver

 

i notice a "glouglou" when i engage the heater

perhaps the other problem ?

 

 

and i put a water valve as picture :

perhaps a problem??

I will retry it

 

- otherwise I looked at the oil by unscrewing pan oil < normal oil

- i also looked  the water in the radiator<  it is very clean

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[RivNut]

There’s also a front and back for each gasket.

[BulldogDriver]

If I remember correctly head gaskets are not left or right and will only go on one way. The oil/water holes are symmetrical  but I think the alignment holes were offset.

I do think that without a true temperature reading you are just defeating yourself in finding the problem. If go to Russ and Matt’s website they have several articles on the problems you are trying to fix. They are under “Matt’s technical articles”. I also had high temperature issues that were only resolved by replacing the radiator even after having the original one properly flushed out. There is only so much that can be done without re coring it. 

 

http://centervilleautorepair.com/

 

Ray

Edited September 25, 2023 by BulldogDriver (see edit history)

[tenugent]

5 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

If I remember correctly head gaskets are not left or right and will only go on one way. The oil/water holes are symmetrical  but I think the alignment holes were offset.

I do think that without a true temperature reading you are just defeating yourself in finding the problem. If go to Russ and Matt’s website they have several articles on the problems you are trying to fix. They are under “Matt’s technical articles”. I also had high temperature issues that were only resolved by replacing the radiator even after having the original one properly flushed out. There is only so much that can be done without re coring it. 

 

http://centervilleautorepair.com/

 

Ray

As Ray states,had mine flushed and still ran hot.Went with a recore and solved the overheating.

[Jim Cannon]

It is quite unusual to have the engine overheat so badly just idling and sitting in the driveway, not out on the road driving.

 

I suspect something (an animal nest?) has plugged up the engine cooling passages or the radiator or both.

 

Try flushing the engine with a hose by pushing water in the upper engine hose (no thermostat) and let it run out the bottom hose (disconnected from radiator). Flush radiator from bottom inlet to upper end (opposite of normal engine running coolant flow direction).

 

[cquisuila]

8 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

It is quite unusual to have the engine overheat so badly just idling and sitting in the driveway, not out on the road driving.

 

I suspect something (an animal nest?) has plugged up the engine cooling passages or the radiator or both.

 

Try flushing the engine with a hose by pushing water in the upper engine hose (no thermostat) and let it run out the bottom hose (disconnected from radiator). Flush radiator from bottom inlet to upper end (opposite of normal engine running coolant flow direction).

 

YES GOOD IDEA

 

Already i have flushed the circuit and I also removed the 2 drainage plugs on the engine

 but i will start again

 

it is strange for the radiator ; i  clearly saw the flow that circulates but not perhaps  by all flows ...

it is evident if i change the radiator i will know if it is the only problem on overheat but this has a cost, especially if my radiator has nothing🙄

 

🥵i hope that i I'm not going to have to reopen the cylinder heads....

 

> HERE the picture of my heads cylinders side passenger right (when I removed the cylinder heads almost 2 years ago...)

 

> the centervilleautorepair.com advertise that "using F-E-L-P-R-O head gaskets that always cause oil leaks where oil goes from the block into the head, oil leaks out between the layers of gasket."

 

 i BOUGHT this parts WHEN i restored....🤒

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[telriv]

Coolant ONLY passes through the rear hole in the block.

In other words coolant travels through the engine then rises up to enter the cylinder head & continue flowing to the front of the head.

ALL those extra holes are to get rid of the sanding castings 

They have NOTHING to do with the actual flow.

Understand???

 

Tom T.

[cquisuila]

2 hours ago, telriv said:

Coolant ONLY passes through the rear hole in the block.

In other words coolant travels through the engine then rises up to enter the cylinder head & continue flowing to the front of the head.

ALL those extra holes are to get rid of the sanding castings 

They have NOTHING to do with the actual flow.

Understand???

 

Tom T.

SORRY good explication but what do these holes correspond to in correlation with the cylinder head gasket ?

I'm sorry to be worthless (and I no longer have vision when I disassembled!)

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[gungeey]

Here's a corresponding head. The big hole is coolant. Small hole is oil feed for rocker. The dowels only let the gasket go on one way. 

[cquisuila]

29 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

The drain plugs on the side of the block are just for that, draining coolant, yet there can still be some residual coolant in the rear corners of the water jacket as the engines are usually tilted rearward when they are in the vehicle.  While they can "flow clean", there can still be residual sediment in those rear areas of the water jackets.  Which means that the only way to get that out is to remove the core plugs on the side of the block and flush things out completely.  A messy job for sure, but that's the only real way (on an older engine) that you can get things as clean as possible.  Just have new brass plugs to replace them.

 

IF you used a chemical flush product, it will remove rust and scale (to varying degrees).  On an engine block, no big deal.  On those core plugs and heater core, where the rust and scale accumulate, that accumulation can degrade the core surface and eat into it.  Removing that scale with chemicals also means that thinner metal results, as the rust will seal those areas until it is removed or eats through them.  A coolant-water mixture will find those weak areas quicker than plain water will, by observation.  So, best to get ahead of the situation by removing those side plugs and washing everything out, if possible.  If they have been changed, it will be obvious by their color.

 

Usually, the radiator will hold about 1/2 the volume of the total cooling system.  draining, flushing, and refilling with about 2 gallons of coolant (NOT 50-50 coolant, but non-diluted) will can usually result in coolant protection to -20 degrees F and possibly -34 degrees F.

 

When the engine is cold, the coolant level should be at the "COLD" level on a cross-flow radiator, which makes it look pretty empty.  As the engine temperature increases, the coolant level will rise as the heated coolant expands, such that when at or near operating temperature, the coolant level should be just below the filler neck on the radiator tank.  Any more will be pushed out of the overflow pipe.

 

Yes, when the coolant temp is at operating temperature, it will be pressurized to about 16psi, which makes the radiator hoses "hard" to the touch.  This is normal.

 

The infra-red "heat guns" are available in the US at discount places as "Harbor Freight".  There are two heat ranges, 500 degrees F and 1000 degrees F.  All have switches to read Centigrade, too.  Usually in the $35.00 USD range.  Possibly some places like that in Europe?

 

You can use these "point and shoot" temperature readers for many vehicle diagnostic things.  You can check the temperatures of the side of the engine block for temperature variations, plus the thermostat area to see when the thermostat opens, checking various parts of the radiator core for temperature variations, plus many other things.  A good diagnostic investment.  Can also be used around the house to look for heat escaping around windows in the winter, too.

 

In automotive diagnostics, the main thing you are looking for is unusual temperature variations, not only for specific temperatures.  For example, an over-heat issue can be because the bottom half of a cross-flow radiator can be clogged with sediment, although it looks normal looking down the filler neck opening.  The bottom part of the radiator core will be cold, as the upper section is hot, yet it is the bottom section air flow which the fan clutch "sees", which governs when the fan clutch works or does not work, so engine temp soars above 3/4 gauge as a result.

 

On the side of the engine block, the parts with good coolant flow will approximate coolant temperature as those parts with lessened flow will be a good bit hotter in comparison.

 

ONE word of caution . . . do NOT open the radiator cap on an engine where the radiator hoses are "hard", meaning the system is pressurized.  ONLY do that after the engine is cooled and the hoses can be easily compressed (as in "no pressure).

 

Take care,

NTX5467

[cquisuila]

i have opened the 2 drain plugs < finished job

 

but  always

my engine is overheating unfortunately🙄

 

i desesperate....

and I would like to know if it is simply my radiator which not efficient....

 

thank you everybody for your precedent advise !!!

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by cquisuila (see edit history)

[cquisuila]

41 minutes ago, gungeey said:

Here's a corresponding head. The big hole is coolant. Small hole is oil feed for rocker. The dowels only let the gasket go on one way. 

so simply 2 coolant hole to head cylinder  !

[BulldogDriver]

I would not worry about the head gaskets at this time. They will not cause an overheating problem and if they are not leaking now you can worry about them after you get the overheating problem resolved. Nailhead heads are not prone to warping that I have heard. they do not blow head gaskets. I would make sure the timing is set correctly and if you are still using points the dwell is correct. 

 

Using a process of elimination should get you where you can point to one thing that needs to be replaced.

 

You have flushed the engine, radiator, and installed a verified good thermostat. From the photos of your block I would think that you are ok with flow through it as long as the drain plugs on both side of the block allowed water to flow out freely. Are you using a known good radiator cap that is #15-16? Just because you see the water flow from the top of a radiator does not mean that it is flowing correctly through the whole radiator. I stated that I had my radiator flushed by a guy that has been doing this for more than 40 years. Only so much can be done before the core needs to be replaced.  

 

Using a temperature gauge that you can install the sender into the spare hole on the other cylinder head will allow you to see the rate that the temperature rises and cools back down. An Infrared thermometer is not going to give you this information very easily. You need to be able to know the correct temperature to fix your problem. 

 

Knowing that you have good flow, a good thermostat, good radiator cap that is #15-16 and the fan is installed correctly (should hold a dollar bill to the front of the radiator), then the only thing that could be causing the problem is the radiator is not doing the job correctly.

 

That was my problem and when the radiator was replaced the high temperature problem was fixed. I was at 200* - 210* all the time at idle and temperature did not drop quickly after moving at any speed. I now have 170-180* moving and never above 195* idling with A/C on and the temperature drops quickly with the car in motion. I live where it is 90* or higher during the summer.

 

Ray

[rodneybeauchamp]

Not sure on these engines but my overheating on a Skylark was caused by an air lock after I drained and refilled the system. 
 

Perhaps there is an air lock and not enough fluid in the system. Ended up using a funnel to help burp the system.

 

Just my two bobs worth

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

[RivNut]

If there is an air lock in the system.park with the front of the car elevated, loosen the radiator cap and let it sit overnight. If you drilled the small hole in the flange of the thermostat as Jim suggested, Mother Nature will burn the air bubble out of the system.  Once the car has been parked for the night and cooled, check the water level. Check it again in the morning and compare.   If you can’t park uphill, a couple of jack stands under the front will work.