1926 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost LHD Price: $89,500

[alsancle]

Peter Kumar finds the coolest stuff!

 

https://www.gullwingmotorcars.com/1926-rolls-royce-silver-ghost-lhd-c-4816.htm

 

This rare factory left-hand drive 1926 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost Springfield is an exciting unrestored discovery just out of long-term storage. Silver with grey interior. Just out of long-term ownership and ready for a straightforward restoration. Chassis S288PL is a straight and solid example that comes complete and is the ideal restoration candidate. It's not everyday you find an unrestored Silver Ghost and this one comes offered with an extensive history file. According to records, this very special car was brought to the Works in 1932 for "modernizing" where it was fitted with booster operated front brakes, new wheels with balloon tires, and a radio. It had all bright parts chrome plated and the roof of the body lowered four inches, repainted, retrimmed, and retopped. Also installed were flush type side valances, mahogany running boards, front and rear valances, modified fenders, and spring type bumpers. Don't miss the chance to own this extremely rare and collectible factory LHD Silver Ghost. 

Factory Left Hand Drive

Coachwork by Springfield 

Excellent Original Car to Restore

Offered with an Extensive History File 

Price: $89,500

 

 

[John Bloom]

I need to get more of an education about these early RR’s. English vs Springfield.  Phantom I vs Phantom II. Vs Phantom III , Silver Ghost....predominant English Coachbuilders.......  I am “lower than the bottom rung of the ladder”, on these great cars......   but my eyes know when they’re looking at something special. Great lines on this example.  
 

I must have five or 10 books in my library on early Rolls Royces. It’s time for me to actually get some of them out and start doing some reading and learning.

[edinmass]

Trust me on this, getting an education about Springfield Rolls-Royce can be one of the most expensive educations on the planet. 
 

It’s a cool car. Just add 900k and five years and you will be driving down the road.

[John Bloom]

20 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Trust me on this, getting an education about Springfield Rolls-Royce can be one of the most expensive educations on the planet. 
 

It’s a cool car. Just add 900k and five years and you will be driving down the road.

I was thinking more like a 50 dollar education.  I already have several books.........thinking 10 hours of reading and a few pots of coffee, maybe a couple of value bottles of wine. 
 

and highly encouraging a buddy to buy something like this while I cheer from the sidelines. 
 

shooting for something like a Kindergarten level of education for myself. 
 

 

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I was thinking more like a 50 dollar education.  I already have several books.........thinking 10 hours of reading and a few pots of coffee, maybe a couple of value bottles of wine. 
 

and highly encouraging a buddy to buy something like this while I cheer from the sidelines. 
 

shooting for something like a Kindergarten level of education for myself. 
 

 

 

John, there are some worthwhile books:

 

https://www.daltonwatson.com/Rolls-Royce-In-America-p/rr-in-america.htm

 

https://www.abebooks.com/American-Rolls-Royce-comprehensive-history-America-Arthur/31061934018/bd

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rolls-Royce-Phantom-II-Continental/dp/0901564435

 

 

Just my opinion,  AJS/AMS series PII (LHD), followed by Springfield PI, followed by Springfield Ghost, followed by PIII is my order of preference.   I prefer the LHD.  

[John Bloom]

Thanks AJ. Let me see what books I have already and then I’ll look up those three you mention. 
 

it doesn’t mention a coach builder and says body by Springfield. I know some of the names of the English coachbuilders that must have been frequently used on RR across the pond, we’re they using US Coachbuilders (Brewster, Brunn, Dietrich,....etc) over here on the ones maid in the US ?  Or are most Springfield Rolls Royce wearing factory bodies?  This one has a big “club sedan” look.  
 

wondering what the WB is on a 1926 Springfield Silver ghost?

 

 

 

[alsancle]

36 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

Thanks AJ. Let me see what books I have already and then I’ll look up those three you mention. 
 

it doesn’t mention a coach builder and says body by Springfield. I know some of the names of the English coachbuilders that must have been frequently used on RR across the pond, we’re they using US Coachbuilders (Brewster, Brunn, Dietrich,....etc) over here on the ones maid in the US ?  Or are most Springfield Rolls Royce wearing factory bodies?  This one has a big “club sedan” look.  
 

wondering what the WB is on a 1926 Springfield Silver ghost?

 

 

 

Coachbuilder is Springfield body company and modified by Brewster. Wheelbase on a P2 is 150, not sure what is Springfield ghost is.

Edited May 13, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

Any idea on the motivation for the wheel change in 1932? Are they smaller rims with larger profile tires (and/or wider)? They seem to fill out the fenders ok.

[28StutzCabriolet]

This car was originally a 1925 Sudbury sedan. That's a 3-window sedan. "basically a Tilbury with three windows" according to Rolls Royce In America, my favorite book on these cars. It would have had 23" wheels most likely. Two wheel brakes. It is a Silver Ghost. That makes it expensive. The Phantom 1 especially with an iron cylinder head is the 'budget' alternative. Many ghosts of this era need new engine blocks, which they do make. Not sure about the cost. Guessing $10-15K based on similar blocks I have seen .

 

This car has been extensively modified as mentioned. 

Wheels: likely 20" now.

Fenders: replaced with later style

Shields and running boards: Sheet metal covers the frame. Running boards mahogany as mentioned

Body: 4" cut out of the roof. The window next to the back seat has been filled in to make a two-window body. Rather handsome.

 

I would not know what to do with it except leave it alone. 

 

Do I want it? Oh yes

Can I afford it? I can buy it, but nothing is cheap on a Rolls, especially mechanical. A radiator would sink me.

What do I think of the price? There are other better buys for me. I like 1925 cars that look like 1925. Not practical to change back the fenders. 23" wheels can be made. Figure $15K. Might make the car look odd. 

Result: I will take my $90K and keep looking. It's overpriced for me. And, it seems that every week something great is popping. 

 

By the way, the car will likely get bought to be rebodied as a Piccadilly roadster. Sad fate.

Brian

[28StutzCabriolet]

4 hours ago, prewarnut said:

enders ok.

Balloon tires were easier riding. And, the 23" wheels it had were dated, high pressure and hard to get tire for.

[edinmass]

Realistically, it’s a parts car. Almost no one understands how difficult these cars are to restore. If it could clean up and be driven as is, and that’s a huge if…………the question is “Do you like to gamble with money, time, and effort?” It makes a turn key car look cheap……….

[John Bloom]

It needs to be bought by somebody where the purchase price for them feels about like me spending a $20 bill.  That way if the whole thing goes south, the new owner can laugh about it and let his buddies tease him about his wise purchase.

[BucketofBolts]

SUPER IDEA!!!  How about a Rolls "Rat Rod". Just rip out that costly engine and replace with a 1970's GM used  motor. You could then use it as a daily driver to the local Costco. Plenty of room in the back seat for bulk toilet paper, a dozen of the $4.99 Costco famous roasted chickens,  and still room for a couple of the 5 foot tall fruit trees that can stick out of the side windows to later be planted in the back yard.  You could then work part-time for the company that owns "Domino's Pizza" and  place their lighted sign on the roof and start delivering pizzas in style.  

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Realistically, it’s a parts car. Almost no one understands how difficult these cars are to restore. If it could clean up and be driven as is, and that’s a huge if…………the question is “Do you like to gamble with money, time, and effort?” It makes a turn key car look cheap……….

 

If the engine turns over then a big step in the right direction.  You need to buy it thinking I'm doing zero in cosmetics and hoping it doesn't need an engine job.  Ed, as you know, these cars are ridiculously overbuilt, so there is a decent chance if the engine is free the overhaul wouldn't be a full mechanical restoration.

 

The problem is that this P1 sold at for 78K all in at Amelia 3 years ago and had recent service work performed by Steve Littin.

 

 

[edinmass]

Yes, and it has three times the eyeball, and five times better condition. The parts car is 90k. I rest my case.

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Yes, and it has three times the eyeball, and five times better condition. The parts car is 90k. I rest my case.

 

Two different animals Ed.   Yes, the PI is a better deal in the scheme of things,  but this ghost is special for being untouched.  I love the Brewster updates.   Yes, a bad idea as far as car purchases go but how many are a good idea?

[parrts]

I believe that the late Silver Ghost cars would have been furnished with 21" or 20" wheels, and either "short" 143-1/2" or "long" 147-1/2" wheelbase.  My very early Springfield Phantom I was supplied with 20" wheels but were changed to 19" when it was refitted with a new body in 1933.  From the looks of the tire tread on the Silver Ghost in question, they look like 20' truck tires, but they could be 19".  The idea was to give mid-1920's cars a more contemporary, lower look in the early 1930's.

I wish that our Springfield expert would ease up on this car.  It's a truly unique example of a late Springfield Silver Ghost that's very complete and certainly worth saving.  The costs of saving it are probably beyond the means of 99+% of us, but why bad mouth it by calling it a parts car?  I don't show my credentials on every post, but I'm at 62 years in the hobby,  55 years in the Rolls-Royce Owners Club, a life member of AACA, and 50+ years at Hershey, so these are some facts flavored with my humble opinion.

Henry Feinberg

Ft. Myers, FL

 

BTW I recommend another book, The American Rolls-Royce by Arthur W. Soutter, published in 1976. Long out of print but worth searching for a copy.

[John Bloom]

31 minutes ago, parrts said:

I believe that the late Silver Ghost cars would have been furnished with 21" or 20" wheels, and either "short" 143-1/2" or "long" 147-1/2" wheelbase.  My very early Springfield Phantom I was supplied with 20" wheels but were changed to 19" when it was refitted with a new body in 1933.  From the looks of the tire tread on the Silver Ghost in question, they look like 20' truck tires, but they could be 19".  The idea was to give mid-1920's cars a more contemporary, lower look in the early 1930's.

I wish that our Springfield expert would ease up on this car.  It's a truly unique example of a late Springfield Silver Ghost that's very complete and certainly worth saving.  The costs of saving it are probably beyond the means of 99+% of us, but why bad mouth it by calling it a parts car?  I don't show my credentials on every post, but I'm at 62 years in the hobby,  55 years in the Rolls-Royce Owners Club, a life member of AACA, and 50+ years at Hershey, so these are some facts flavored with my humble opinion.

Henry Feinberg

Ft. Myers, FL

 

BTW I recommend another book, The American Rolls-Royce by Arthur W. Soutter, published in 1976. Long out of print but worth searching for a copy.

Henry, AJ mentioned that book as well.   You two have given me a good lead on some reading/study material. 
 

 

[alsancle]

This is a very attractive car.

 

[Walt G]

Everything that Henry Fineberg says is true. I have known him for decades, he is a true enthusiast but also realistic in his advice - has always been. I am proud to have him as a friend ( but don't hold it against him that he thinks I am "ok" most of the time , sort of - maybe.  hey I still have at least 6 people that talk to me !!!)

[m-mman]

"I was thinking more like a 50 dollar education.  I already have several books.........thinking 10 hours of reading and a few pots of coffee, maybe a couple of value bottles of wine. "

 

Rolls-Royce

The thought of an American built Rolls is intriguing to me and I MIGHT actually step up and try to acquire one before I leave the earth and the hobby.  In the meantime I have been trying to learn about them and I consider myself having a kindergarten level understanding of them.

 

I will share with you what I know. I am certain that some of my information is incorrect and I am certain that RR experts will speak up. Feel free to do so, that’s how we can all learn.

 

First: The RR books and articles I have read are all “talking baseball”. They seem to be written by and for people who already know and understand RR cars. RR cars are not normal cars sold to normal people so the understanding of typical production cars does not apply. I will talk not in DETAILS, but with the goal of helping you UNDERSTAND them and RR thinking.

 

Starting in 1904 Henry Royce started making 2,3 & 4 cylinder cars but it was the 1906-8 six cylinder flathead car which really made the company. Designated the “40/50” it was called the “Silver Ghost” in the press and the name stuck.  The Original Silver Ghost.

 

THIS single car is the basis of Rolls Royce.

 

THIS single car is the foundation of the RR reputation for quality and engineering.

 

It was a great car at a time when most cars were crude. It was overbuilt and over engineered and lasted in an age when other cars commonly broke. 

 

Interestingly it came out the same time as the Ford’s Model T. Two great cars; one lasted because it was over-built the other because it was overly-simple. They both met the needs of the market, one because it could be repaired, one because it didn’t need to be repaired. But god help you if you needed to repair it. They were both produced basically unchanged for 20 years.

 

Naming RR cars. RR cars are known by a number designation – two, two digit numbers separated by a divisor line. (40/50, 20/25)  I have yet to read a good simple explanation for what these numbers mean exactly. RR books, articles and experts just accept them (and likely know what they mean) but as noted above, they assume that everyone does and it is never explained. I assume that it has to do with “horsepower”. Britain taxes cars based on horsepower, but not ACTUAL horsepower, rather a calculated HP based on measurements of the bore & stroke. I would think that someone would put this into their books & articles but they rarely do. Maybe someone here can thoroughly explain it. 

 

By the same token articles written about 1960s cars don’t ever explain what GTO, XL & LTD means so I guess it is similar.

 

The RR was expensive and as typical they sold the chassis and a coachbuilder added the body. Before WWI some were purchased in Europe and imported to the USA, but their biggest market seems to have been in Europe (or the Commonwealth). WWI saw many RR donated to the war effort. Used for generals or made into trucks(?) Typical for an overbuilt luxury car.

 

WWI ends and RR looks to build cars in the USA. No import duties, shorter delivery times, closer to the newly affluent customer base, etc. They pick Springfield MA and being making cars in about 1920. The cars were “identical” to the British built versions EXCEPT they weren’t.  American cars were LHD so that changed things like linkages and what not, to allow the switch in driving sides. As production continued along in MA it became obvious that buying local (American) was better than sticking to the European suppliers. Electrical systems (Delco vs Lucas?) Shocks, Tires, 3 and 4 speed transmissions . . . . Someone will speak up about the details, they are all well documented.

 

RR engineering design is another thing that is not well spelled out in the books and articles. It is insane! Not enough articles are written by people who have worked on them and share their idiosyncrasies. Some things I have learned;

 

RR liked dual ignition. Two sets of plugs, two sets of wires and of course two distributors to support this. Was dual ignition REALLY necessary?  Doesn’t matter RR thought it was so RR did it that way.

 

RR has several levers on the steering wheel to control timing, fuel mixture, and engine speed. The carburetor stayed on the same side of the engine whether it was RHD or LHD this made swapping these controls a major feat! A normal company would just use cables and be done with it. RR insisted on linkages! Not hard to imagine the complexity involved getting all this to function.

 

Rather than a simple choke plate, the RR carb seems to have a separate “enrichment” system with its own jets etc.

 

I read a story about a RR clutch replacement. The friction material IS ON THE FLYWHEEL AND PRESSURE PLATE!!! The driven disc is all metal(!) WTH??  Guess it made sense to RR.   

 

Again I am not a RR expert and I have never worked on one. Others will speak up I am sure.  I think articles and information about all this unusual overly complex engineering would make for a great read. Perhaps there just aren’t enough mortals that have had the experience of working on a RR to share it(?) Or maybe the PTSD from working on one makes them not want to relive the experience?

 

OK, Springfield cars. You can recognize one because the serial number starts with “S”. RR cars are known by their serial numbers because body swaps were common. Springfield RR cars were sold with all their bodies being built by “RRCW”  Rolls-Royce Custom Coach Works. They were not advertised? promoted? as having their bodies built by a named coachbuilder. But of course they were.

 

The bodies were constructed by all the high quality builders that were working nearby in MA. Today historians discuss the body built by XXX, but not when they were new. Brewster was probably their “most popular” coachbuilder. RR of America eventually bought Brewster. But as typical for that price class the customer could get whatever they wanted. 

 

And they wanted TOWN CARS. Expensive car? Wanna show off your wealth?  There is only one style you are interested in, a town car. There is no end to all the different variations of town cars offered by RR.

 

Town cars are great when they are new and you have a chauffer, BUT not a good body style for a second owner, and this has a big effect on collector RRs.  Chauffer seating- if you are 5’ tall it is going to be tight. 4’9” is the assumed size for a RR town car driver. Chauffeurs are paid to drive, they don’t have to be comfortable. A trade in town car has almost no resale value, and RR cars were traded in. Very typical in the era was for the dealer to remove and dispose of the town car body and replace it with a sport-open body.  

 

Again RR cars are tracked by their serial-chassis numbers and body swaps are not that big of a thing in the RR world. A serious historian would want an original town car but many other collectors are very happy with a swapped open body. Even if it is a modern reproduction body.

 

RR did offer some owner-driver sedans (no divider) but they seem to be fewer and these get little respect. (The original car in this post is an example of one)

 

The names Ghost and Phantom get thrown around and again there are little basic explanations about them. The Springfield Ghost was based on the original 1908 car. It is a flathead six. Great car but just like with the Model T, by the mid 1920s it was getting long in the tooth. By the mid 20s there were many other luxury cars that might have been called better.  So about 1925 they introduced the Phantom (RR likes using spiritual names) A Phantom is a six cylinder overhead valve engine.

 

Flathead vs Overhead – which is better??  1948 Cadillac vs 1949 Cadillac – which is better?

 

Reflexively I would think that people would prefer the overhead engine. Not so with RR. The flathead engine goes back to the original 1908 Silver Ghost. So there is a huge attraction for RR people to prefer the Ghost and poo-poo the overhead Phantom. They seem willing to pay a premium for a Ghost.

 

Hence the statement made above that a Phantom is a bargain for a Springfield Rolls. They trade for less money than a Ghost. An expert will pipe up about the other differences between a Ghost and a Phantom but one is the brakes. A Ghost is an early 20s car and has 2 wheel brakes. A Phantom is a later 20s car and has 4 wheel brakes. Which is better? I have talked to some RR owners I have been told that the over engineered 2 wheel brakes on an original Ghost work just fine. It was also common for early Ghost cars to be updated to 4 wheel brakes. 

 

This is something else about understanding RR cars, changes and improvements over their life were very common. Most changes were done when they were 2-10 years old so the words “original” and “as built” don’t have as much meaning.

 

The car that was the beginning of this discussion;  it is a Ghost (flathead) It is wearing a body that has changes that are from the Phantom (overhead) era. To sell an RR during the depression it had better look like a new car even if it was used. So, lower the top, reduce the wheel size, make other changes. Hey, great for 1932-33 but what about in today’s collector market?

 

The car being offered is neither fish nor fowl. It does not have the early look of an original Ghost, and it does not have the improvements of a Phantom. Can you “restore it”? Sure.  Ed lives in the Pebble Beach world and knows that to show it at Pebble it would need $500,000+ worth of work and then never win a prize because . . . it is neither fish nor fowl. . . .

 

Could you “just get it running and drive it”? Sure, but it is a RR. Nothing is simple. It is well beyond a tune up and radiator flush.

PERHAPS just maybe, if you were a RR expert you could get it running and driving. Ed’s experience tells him that once you start you are going to find problems, and RR are NEVER an easy fix.

 

One problem with them is when non-RR mechanics TRY to fix them over the years and do damage. I refer you to the excellent story of fixing the 1925 Nash that had “just a few issues” in an otherwise nice car that became a huge rabbit hole. A long parked RR will be worse. And this car is NOT original; it was changed and modified in the 1930s.

 

So what future does this car have? As described it is a Springfield Ghost. The current body is beautiful, but not competitive on a major show field. So, remove the unpopular body, do a full restoration on the chassis and mount a reproduced open body such that it looks like an original open Ghost.

 

And this is exactly the type of thing that RR buyers are seeking, whether it is 1932 or 2023

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

Well I won't ask if you're a coffee drinker....

You touch on one point I was going to ask - so I will. Could this possibly have a shot at a HPOF at say Pebble? I ask from the point of view of original, but modified in a slightly rare, but tasteful-for-the-times way.I would tend to think no, it isn't unique enough for Pebble but some who have commented here have good experience there to comment.

[m-mman]

HPOF - historical preservation of original features……

chopped top? Swapped wheels? 4 wheel brakes? All done “by the factory”?  (Actually the New York dealer-representative of RR) to a used car trade in that was 6-7 years old at the time. 

You tell me what “original” features you are preserving? 
 

“I have a 1932 Ford that was updated to 1939-40 standards including major body modifications, by the country’s largest Ford dealer”. 
How would you HPOF that? 

 

An example of how RR cars don’t fit well into traditional old car definitions. 
 

[alsancle]

22 minutes ago, m-mman said:

HPOF - historical preservation of original features……

chopped top? Swapped wheels? 4 wheel brakes? All done “by the factory”?  (Actually the New York dealer-representative of RR) to a used car trade in that was 6-7 years old at the time. 

You tell me what “original” features you are preserving? 
 

“I have a 1932 Ford that was updated to 1939-40 standards including major body modifications, by the country’s largest Ford dealer”. 
How would you HPOF that? 

 

An example of how RR cars don’t fit well into traditional old car definitions. 
 

 

I think this car would be  welcome entrant in the preservation class at Pebble assuming someone spent the money on it.   The period modifications by Brewster are 100% fine.

 

There is a big distinction between Brewster updating a RR in period (which they did to many many cars)  and a post war hobbyist (or dealership) screwing around with a car.

 

I assume you are joking with your Ford comment?

[m-mman]

16 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I assume you are joking with your Ford comment

Used for illustrative purposes only.  
I think that Only RR and Duesenburg could be competitive with changes made when they were old used cars.  

[alsancle]

2 minutes ago, m-mman said:

Used for illustrative purposes only.  
I think that Only RR and Duesenburg could be competitive with changes made when they were old used cars.  

 

I think it just depends on what the car is, who did the updates and what kind of provenance is there for the updates.  This Simplex Crane was updated by Brewster for the original owner in period.   I think it would be welcome at Pebble.  Do you?

 

 

[prewarnut]

I think it is worth considering that stylistically not too much changed dramatically from mid '20s to '32. 1934 and on (or late '30s) are different story. This is not like the P1 (still for sale) modified with horrendous late '30s coachwork - the one with the sale video driving around and door flying open.

AJ would RREC or RROC have records of a retrofit? Or would it amount to just the 3 x 5 card info?

[m-mman]

52 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I think it would be welcome at Pebble.  Do you?

Nice car, but I dont approve the Pebble entries. . . . 😉

And this is a teens car with a 20s body?

 

My point of course is to understand the original modified car that was at the beginning of this thread.

The question about why it's chances for a full restoration are slim and how the modifications done in era, would stretch the limits of what 95% of car enthusiasts would understand as "original". 

 

The cars that that were modified in era and would be accepted (HPOF or Pebble Restored) are few and far between.

 

How many Packards or Cadillacs that were modified when they were 5-10 years old could still be considered original?

Certainly when you get back to the oughts & teens when a few cars were delivered with two bodies (summer & winter), but by the 20s & 30s that practice was over. 

And how many Bowman & Swartz Duesenbergs that were modified in the 1940s are considered more beautiful or even as beautiful, as the original unmodified 1930s coachwork?

 

There is also the understanding of; Display, HPOF and Class winner. The RR in question would likely get respect in an original class, but 100 point restored? An open body would win everytime, so why spend the money?

 

I remember when Jay Leno showed his newly restored Duesenberg Murphy Beverly (4 door sedan) at Pebble. (gorgeous car) He knew it wouldn't win anything and it didnt. The awards go to open cars.  The RR in question is in the same position. 

 

And to fix it up to drive? (tour?) Can you do a trouble free mechanical restoration on this without removing the body? Possible, but not likely.

But if you could, how much polish would that paint need? Would you remove any parts to polish them? 

Then how long would the ancient fabric in the interior last?   

Project drift. Suddenly you are back at full restoration. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history)

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

 

I remember when Jay Leno showed his newly restored Duesenberg Murphy Beverly (4 door sedan) at Pebble. (gorgeous car) He knew it wouldn't win anything and it didnt. The awards go to open cars.  The RR in question is in the same position. 

Closed cars do well at Pebble……….we missed BOS by one vote with a closed J……….and smoked some very nice cars…….including the Clark Gable JN and a great phaeton. 
 

In line for Best of Show…….all closed cars. We were close but no cigar……lost by one vote. 

[wayne sheldon]

m-mman, Very interesting writeup! And quite informative I thought.

Thank you.

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, prewarnut said:

I think it is worth considering that stylistically not too much changed dramatically from mid '20s to '32. 1934 and on (or late '30s) are different story. This is not like the P1 (still for sale) modified with horrendous late '30s coachwork - the one with the sale video driving around and door flying open.

AJ would RREC or RROC have records of a retrofit? Or would it amount to just the 3 x 5 card info?

Typically there is a lot more than just the Schoellkopf card.  I would assume that Kumar paid the 80 bucks to the RROC and got everything they have. 

 

Are you talking about the PI Bohman and Schwartz?   It was originally on a PII chassis which is drop sill and in the last few decades got moved to the PI chassis which destroyed it.  Not the same thing as this.   If the B&S was still on its original chassis (and not sitting 6 inches higher in the air becuase of that) then it would be apples to apples.

 

 

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, m-mman said:

Nice car, but I dont approve the Pebble entries. . . . 😉

And this is a teens car with a 20s body?

 

My point of course is to understand the original modified car that was at the beginning of this thread.

The question about why it's chances for a full restoration are slim and how the modifications done in era, would stretch the limits of what 95% of car enthusiasts would understand as "original". 

 

The cars that that were modified in era and would be accepted (HPOF or Pebble Restored) are few and far between.

 

How many Packards or Cadillacs that were modified when they were 5-10 years old could still be considered original?

Certainly when you get back to the oughts & teens when a few cars were delivered with two bodies (summer & winter), but by the 20s & 30s that practice was over. 

And how many Bowman & Swartz Duesenbergs that were modified in the 1940s are considered more beautiful or even as beautiful, as the original unmodified 1930s coachwork?

 

There is also the understanding of; Display, HPOF and Class winner. The RR in question would likely get respect in an original class, but 100 point restored? An open body would win everytime, so why spend the money?

 

I remember when Jay Leno showed his newly restored Duesenberg Murphy Beverly (4 door sedan) at Pebble. (gorgeous car) He knew it wouldn't win anything and it didnt. The awards go to open cars.  The RR in question is in the same position. 

 

And to fix it up to drive? (tour?) Can you do a trouble free mechanical restoration on this without removing the body? Possible, but not likely.

But if you could, how much polish would that paint need? Would you remove any parts to polish them? 

Then how long would the ancient fabric in the interior last?   

Project drift. Suddenly you are back at full restoration. 

 

1.   Assuming the RROC documentation proves it you are using the wrong word when saying "modified".     It was updated in period by an established coachbuilder.   This is totally cool assuming it true.

 

2.  Packards and Cadillacs for the most part carried production bodies.   Every RR chassis carried a custom body.   Updates to those custom bodies by established coachbuilers (often the same one that built the original body) is totally fine.  It happened all the time.    Also,  updates in period to production bodied Packards and Cadillacs by ESTABLISHED COACHBUILDERS is also fine and there are some examples of these.  This almost never happened.

 

3. As an aside you could buy 5 of the best Cadillacs or Packards for what this car cost when new.

 

4.  "would stretch the limits of what 95% of car enthusiasts would understand as "original".  - at the risk of sounding like more of a prick than I usually do, most "enthusiasts" don't know there is such a thing as the Pebble Beach Preservation Class,  let alone what should be accepted.

 

5.  Saying "Bohman and Schwartz" updates ruined the looks of most cars is not germane here.   I feel like the updates on this car make it look better.  My friend Joe P. does not.  To each own.

[edinmass]

 

AJ......Joe is correct, as usual. As far as risking sounding like a jerk.......that horse left the barn years ago............in the shop, we don't use the term "jerk". We use the term "BIG JERK".  😎

 

 

Yes, you can be a jerk.....and still be a nice guy. Especially when you buy dinner and drinks. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Reading through this thread reminds me of a personal observation (along with buy best you can afford, colors, bodystyle matters, etc.) - every car is unique.  This one is speaking to AJ as well as some others.

 

Here is an example from a different rent district.  One happens on 3 Model A Fords, say all roadsters.  One is a hi point restoration now aging, one an untouched original, showing 90 years of wear but very well, one was a hobbyist restoration years ago with a later B or maybe diamond stamped A replacement engine.  One might see different paths here dictated by the car in front of them.  Maybe drive and enjoy the older well done car.  Maybe careful continued preservation or potential hi point effort on the untouched, complete and nice original, maybe hobbyist driver or a traditional hot rod with the car that had a bit more of a checkered past.  No harm no foul vs. The untouched car. (Yes these are plentiful and cheap but still asinine to mess with an outstanding original 90 years out to most of us anyway..)

 

I think it's that way with Classics as well, not every one needs $500k in the resto and certainly many cannot carry that.  But a new owner will ultimately want to listen to how the car speaks to him.  A nice restoration but maybe not PB level, or maybe best left alone which more folks maybe should have done between say 1970 - 2000 ish.

 

Personally, on the subject car I hope the current body is retained and whomever ends up with it sees the practice of the in period mods as an important historical aspect on higher end cars of the period.  So 100% day one original, no, important, I guess if it speaks to you that way.  To me, the upgrade is classy, clever and period original, if you will.  Just tossing an open Ghost body on it today for showing  makes a pricey replicar, but that is just one guys opinion. 

 

I have advised people to avoid cars that are neither fish nor fowl before, like a stock A with non period colors and a pro leather interior.  Not a street rod, hot rod or original car.  Weird.  But I would not put this one in that class, I think it is unique but not weird. @prewarnut should dive in! 😉😁👍

Edited May 16, 2023 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

 

As far as the Pebble preservation class and the above car.......the modifications done in the era are fine and not an issue. There are a few things that one must consider when wanting to enter the class..........and much of it I choose not to opine on in public. It's a great class, and always gets lots of attention.  The water in preservation is very, very, very deep. That said.....all the classes there are ridiculously difficult..............unless you have been there as an entrant it's very difficult to explain. You have a great, never seen, one off car big boy toy that is now just out of the shop with a 100 point restoration? Hell........you have a very slight fraction of a chance at an award. Fact is, most fantastic cars at Pebble often go home with a goody pack and a thank you.........it is absolutely asinine at the level of competition there. Low milage original Rolls Royce cars are in fact fairly common........and a chance to buy the car above, clean it up to an inch of its life, and make it "Pebble ready" would in 95 percent of the cases get a thank you for your application, but the class is full. It takes a lot of things to get a car on the field on the 18th green.............and it can be mind numbing and confusing to people who are not very familiar with the process. 

[prewarnut]

AJ, Yes I was thinking of the Bohman and Schwartz. I forgot it was on a PII but ouch I can't get over its looks.

Ed, thanks for the insight. I asked the Pebble question mostly to stir thought. Obviously noone may know the secret sauce but just curious. This shouldn't be one's primary motivation but I imagine it would be invited to some HPOF arena somewhere.

Steve, I am still a year too early without space and need to see what college my kids pick (it wont be a state school). On the other hand our neighbors stand to make $1.3M profit on their house they did nothing for in the last 5 years so I reason that will be our figure plus another $100K next year if I am so lucky so I guess I could pay to store it.....I do like the car.

 

[alsancle]

57 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

AJ, Yes I was thinking of the Bohman and Schwartz. I forgot it was on a PII but ouch I can't get over its looks.

Ed, thanks for the insight. I asked the Pebble question mostly to stir thought. Obviously noone may know the secret sauce but just curious. This shouldn't be one's primary motivation but I imagine it would be invited to some HPOF arena somewhere.

Steve, I am still a year too early without space and need to see what college my kids pick (it wont be a state school). On the other hand our neighbors stand to make $1.3M profit on their house they did nothing for in the last 5 years so I reason that will be our figure plus another $100K next year if I am so lucky so I guess I could pay to store it.....I do like the car.

 

Before and after.  A shame.

 

[58L-Y8]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Before and after.  A shame.

 

Yipe!  Adding insult to injury!

[prewarnut]

...also definitely a case where the wheel covers are essential unlike some of the older ones.

I agree - body is a little high.

Edited May 17, 2023 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

...also definitely a case where the wheel covers are essential unlike some of the older ones.

I agree - body is a little high.

The PII chassis sits lower and the bodies are drained to drop over the chassis not sit on it.