Auto Body Welding

[James Peck]

Twenty-two years ago, I moved to the greater Detroit labor market. I left behind an acquaintance I think about as I start to gain automobile body repair skills. Bell Labs, Dr. Shockley, and others led to power semi-conductors which are behind much current body working technology. J as we will call him had acquired ownership of ten or so totaled Z cars. Some were 240Zs, some 260Zs, and may be a few 280Zs. All were crushed in on front or rear and/or left or right. They were all being stored on the premises of auto salvage yards and other automotive businesses where, in my opinion, they or significant parts might disappear at any time. J was a military retiree and did not have to work. My recommendation to J was that he attend auto collision repair training to learn how to section and weld together unibody vehicles. My guess was that he could get 2 or 3 good ones out of the lot. At the time he was still in his early seventies and appeared in good health. J’s response was that he had been an instructor in the mechanical auto repair program at the local community college and that he did not need such instruction. Now in J’s defense, the autobody repair training in that labor market was in a vocational high school. How well the program prepared people, if at all, in the kind of work we are discussing is unknown. He did not get trained in that market. J could also have chosen a proprietary school (like Universal in Phoenix) in which to upskill. What happened to those cars? I would bet that J never acquired the skills to restore those vehicles to operation. He may have died and parts or remains sold or scrapped. I am of the opinion none were titled to him.

[31nash880]

As time goes by and cars of the late 80's  and 90's start to get restored, we as a group will need more info.

I spent 40+ years in the collision industry as a bodyman. Cars are no longer made of mild steel and can be fixed in the "old" ways. No heating with a torch and bend it back. No brazing. No stick welding. New cars now don't even want might welding.

This will become a big issue as time goes by. Anyone can make it look good. But will it respond correctly in an accident?

[pont35cpe]

Just about all the cars made anymore, are throw away cars. I know i don`t want anything made in the past 25-30yr or 40. I can`t afford one anyways..

[1937hd45]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:21 PM, Bills Auto Works said:

 

   Very True Sir!

 

       I have been in business since 1983 & have done countless hundreds of wrecks for customers & myself & have NEVER brazed or stick welded anything! I was taught to MIG weld early on by a couple of good friends who were a few years older than me & way ahead of me in collision/bodywork/paint. I just never saw the need to look back.

 

God Bless

Bill

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nationwide-single-car-transport-hauling-open-or-enclosed.614419/

We all learned different things, gas welded and brazed things from my teenage days, then Heli Arc welded aluminum body panels, and sticked welded steel. Worked part time in a friends shop with an OLD MIG welder, his welds looked like crap, and therefore I never put down a correct MIG bead. Goal is to someday buy a TIG unit.

[28 Chrysler]

Brazing or leading was the only way to save a part that the metal was thin or rusted.  When gas welding, low heat and wet asbestos  to help avoid warping.

This was before 1980 and the poor fitting replacement panels for modern cars came from Italy not the far east.

[TTR]

On 12/7/2022 at 1:18 PM, pont35cpe said:

Just about all the cars made anymore, are throw away cars. 

Just about all vehicles produced since the dawn their industry have always been "throw away".

Manufactures couldn't sustain and wouldn't survive any other business model.

If they could make them completely dissolve at the end of some predetermined life span, they would gladly do it.

Edited December 13, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)

[pont35cpe]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

Just about all vehicles produced since the dawn their industry have always been "throw away".

Manufactures couldn't sustain and wouldn't survive any other business model.

If they could make them completely dissolve at the end of some predetermined life span, they would gladly do it.

My new truck, will have its 41st anniversary of being mine, the 18th of this month, an `82 S10 with 954,000 miles that i`ve put on it. Totaled it once when i smacked a cow, April 12th of 1997 @ 10:05 in the evening. I fixed it, it`ll be with me till my end.

[RansomEli]

1937hd45,

 

You can get a perfectly good TIG welder for under $200. I bought this model and it's working fine. Steel only. If you also want to weld aluminum then you need another TIG welder. Those run $800 and up.

 

I'm in TIG learning mode and my $200 model is doing well. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083HZGYCP?tag=onamzproshape-20&linkCode=ssc&creativeASIN=B083HZGYCP&asc_item-id=amzn1.ideas.1URX5C1F58PU7&ref_=aip_sf_list_spv_ofs_mixed_d_asin&th=1

 

[Digger914]

4 hours ago, RansomEli said:

1937hd45,

 

You can get a perfectly good TIG welder for under $200. I bought this model and it's working fine. Steel only. If you also want to weld aluminum then you need another TIG welder. Those run $800 and up.

 

I'm in TIG learning mode and my $200 model is doing well. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083HZGYCP?tag=onamzproshape-20&linkCode=ssc&creativeASIN=B083HZGYCP&asc_item-id=amzn1.ideas.1URX5C1F58PU7&ref_=aip_sf_list_spv_ofs_mixed_d_asin&th=1

 

I like your new little welder, I have a gas, stick & flux core wire, each has its own best use and my favorite welding tool is my auto dimming hood. A two sparking box would be a nice space saver, but every few years I need to fix a busted aluminum trailer and these little buzz boxes are OK for tacking with aluminum stick, but they don't have the duty cycle to flow a bead.

[Fordy]

I used to swear by gas welding as I found MIG was far too brittle to work the repair. Mig I would only use to plug weld to replicate spot welds and where I had no need to work the weld with a hammer and dolly. Earlier this year I bought a mid-range Lincoln Electric that combines stick, Mig and Tig. The technique for getting the Tig right was a painful learning curve, but the results are well worth the frustration of practice. It is able to do a much thinner metal with little distortion and with a much neater weld and very little blow thru AND you can dress the weld with a hammer and dolly. Then I had a go at some aluminum - I quickly gave that up as a black art that I will probably never master despite getting all the correct tungstens and other gear. The local TAFE (Technical And Further Education) isn't interested in courses catering to old buggers like me.

[James Peck]

10 years or so back I was working at a place doing bake hardening steel. They were usually good size automotive stampings that were mainly not external surfaces. Once hot stamped, they would be laser cut.  The only welding, I saw done was resistance.

Edited December 13, 2022 by James Peck (see edit history)

[Leif in Calif]

The newer the car, the more issues there are. Many new cars have exotic high strength steels and aluminum parts that are fastened in ways that can't easily be put back together with traditional techniques. Not to mention all the electronics. Will the current crop of cars be collectable classics 75 yaers from now? I'm kinda glad I don't need to know. 

[CChinn]

3 minutes ago, Leif in Calif said:

The newer the car, the more issues there are. Many new cars have exotic high strength steels and aluminum parts that are fastened in ways that can't easily be put back together with traditional techniques. Not to mention all the electronics. Will the current crop of cars be collectable classics 75 yaers from now? I'm kinda glad I don't need to know. 

A true statement when applying mid-20th century restoration techniques. But in the mid-late 21st century or even early 22nd century who knows what advanced restoration methods will have been developed in our hobby. We’re only beginning to figure out the possibilities with 3D printing. That will likely be obsolete by then. We’ll never know

[James Peck]

8 hours ago, Fordy said:

I used to swear by gas welding as I found MIG was far too brittle to work the repair. Mig I would only use to plug weld to replicate spot welds and where I had no need to work the weld with a hammer and dolly. Earlier this year I bought a mid-range Lincoln Electric that combines stick, Mig and Tig. The technique for getting the Tig right was a painful learning curve, but the results are well worth the frustration of practice. It is able to do a much thinner metal with little distortion and with a much neater weld and very little blow thru AND you can dress the weld with a hammer and dolly. Then I had a go at some aluminum - I quickly gave that up as a black art that I will probably never master despite getting all the correct tungstens and other gear. The local TAFE (Technical And Further Education) isn't interested in courses catering to old buggers like me.

The Community College course I am taking is using Lincoln Mig welders that plug into 120 ac. They seem to cater to geezers. Once you have taken all their courses you can re-register for one and then use the whole shop for personal projects without participating in the registered class. The cars in the paint booths are mostly owned by mature men. I am the only geezer in my class, but they understand my difficulty seeing the joint when I am doing overhead welds.

I grew up in a rural town that Lincoln Electric hired from. A high school classmate promoted up from the floor worked on welder design for quite a number of years.

A lot of modern bodies are configured so you can't get to both sides of a panel.

[usnavystgc]

Has anyone looked into laser welding?  I believe it is def the future for thin sheet metal repair.  It really is a serious breakthrough.  The benefits are better penetration with less heat resulting in a strong thin weld with virtually no warping.  The other benefit is, it is very easy to learn/master.  Unfortunately, the welders are outside the price range of most shade tree mechs.  

 

There are many more benefits to it and most are discussed in this video.

 

 

[usnavystgc]

4 minutes ago, Bills Auto Works said:

I predict that I will purchase one of these before summer of '23 Thank You

That's great, please keep us informed of your purchase and the results.

[Restorer32]

Once had a job applicant who claimed she could tig weld 2 pieces of aluminum from packs of cigarettes together and she had pics to prove it.

[caddyshack]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:45 AM, Restorer32 said:

Once had a job applicant who claimed she could tig weld 2 pieces of aluminum from packs of cigarettes together and she had pics to prove it.

Bet she could weld a broken heart and the crack of dawn too.

[TTR]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:18 PM, pont35cpe said:

My new truck, will have its 41st anniversary of being mine, the 18th of this month, an `82 S10 with 954,000 miles that i`ve put on it. … it`ll be with me till my end.

Good for you and I can respect it, but I imagine you know your daily driver ownership approach is anomaly and I wouldn’t be surprised if most car dealerships, manufacturers and their shareholders secretly dislike anyone with similar tendencies.

 

[James Peck]

How long until repairing your car becomes regulated out of possibility?

[pont35cpe]

16 minutes ago, James Peck said:

How long until repairing your car becomes regulated out of possibility?

I should be good. Last year put all new upper/lower a-arms, center link, spindles, rotors, calipers, shocks, front/rear springs, and a complete NOS rear-end. I bought the rear end from a guy in Lexington, Okla. He has a warehouse of NOS leftover rear-ends, from the OKC GM plant, $500ea. It`s kind of like a new one again.

[31nash880]

Not long. Hard to get parts for a 5 year old car now.

[James Peck]

I had a buck deer damage my radiator shutter housing on my 2019 F150. He was chasing after it pretty hard. The individual shutters are put back in place, but one mounting foot is broken off. Tomorrow's task is to see what plastic it is made of. Plastics welding requires using matching rod.  

 

There are about 5 brands of aftermarket shutter assemblies being sold on Amazon and elsewhere. All appear to be made in China. They are not all matching the original plastic.

[James Peck]

In 2001, the 318 stopped being put into new vehicles. We kept making them until there was a bank built up for warranty and spare parts sales. The 318 used different pin grinders than the 3.9L V6.

[James Peck]

 

On 12/13/2022 at 1:48 PM, usnavystgc said:

Has anyone looked into laser welding?  I believe it is def the future for thin sheet metal repair.  It really is a serious breakthrough.  The benefits are better penetration with less heat resulting in a strong thin weld with virtually no warping.  The other benefit is, it is very easy to learn/master.  Unfortunately, the welders are outside the price range of most shade tree mechs.  

 

There are many more benefits to it and most are discussed in this video.

 

 

There are a couple of laser welding cells where I work. Most of the problems I have seen are interlocking signals to and from the PLC or robots.

[James Peck]

What light rating does the welding helmet glass need to be?

[60FlatTop]

On 12/17/2022 at 2:53 PM, TTR said:

and I wouldn’t be surprised if most car dealerships, manufacturers and their shareholders secretly dislike anyone with similar tendencies.

 

Nah, the most common comment as the sales force sees those vehicles roll past the showroom window is "That guys walking and he doesn't know it".

[michaelmackay]

On 12/7/2022 at 11:29 AM, James Peck said:

Twenty-two years ago, I moved to the greater Detroit labor market. I left behind an acquaintance I think about as I start to gain automobile body repair skills. Bell Labs, Dr. Shockley, and others led to power semi-conductors which are behind much current body working technology. J as we will call him had acquired ownership of ten or so totaled Z cars. Some were 240Zs, some 260Zs, and may be a few 280Zs. All were crushed in on front or rear and/or left or right. They were all being stored on the premises of auto salvage yards and other automotive businesses where, in my opinion, they or significant parts might disappear at any time. J was a military retiree and did not have to work. My recommendation to J was that he attend auto collision repair training to learn how to section and weld together unibody vehicles. My guess was that he could get 2 or 3 good ones out of the lot. At the time he was still in his early seventies and appeared in good health. J’s response was that he had been an instructor in the mechanical auto repair program at the local community college and that he did not need such instruction. Now in J’s defense, the autobody repair training in that labor market was in a vocational high school. How well the program prepared people, if at all, in the kind of work we are discussing is unknown. He did not get trained in that market. J could also have chosen a proprietary school (like Universal in Phoenix) in which to upskill contact us for DOWELL Tube Laser Cutting Machine Manufacturers. What happened to those cars? I would bet that J never acquired the skills to restore those vehicles to operation. He may have died and parts or remains sold or scrapped. I am of the opinion none were titled to him.

It sounds like J had quite a collection of classic Z cars, albeit in various states of disrepair. It's unfortunate that he didn't take your advice to undergo auto collision repair training, especially given his background in mechanical auto repair instruction. Unibody vehicle repair requires specific skills and techniques, often not covered comprehensively in general mechanical programs or vocational high schools. Without proper training, it's likely those Z cars remained untouched or were eventually lost to time, parts, or scrap. It's a reminder of how crucial specialized training can be in preserving and restoring automotive classics, ensuring they don't fade away into oblivion.

[michaelmackay]

On 12/7/2022 at 11:29 AM, James Peck said:

Twenty-two years ago, I moved to the greater Detroit labor market. I left behind an acquaintance I think about as I start to gain automobile body repair skills. Bell Labs, Dr. Shockley, and others led to power semi-conductors which are behind much current body working technology. J as we will call him had acquired ownership of ten or so totaled Z cars. Some were 240Zs, some 260Zs, and may be a few 280Zs. All were crushed in on front or rear and/or left or right. They were all being stored on the premises of auto salvage yards and other automotive businesses where, in my opinion, they or significant parts might disappear at any time. J was a military retiree and did not have to work. My recommendation to J was that he attend auto collision repair training to learn how to section and weld together unibody vehicles. My guess was that he could get 2 or 3 good ones out of the lot. At the time he was still in his early seventies and appeared in good health. J’s response was that he had been an instructor in the mechanical auto repair program at the local community college and that he did not need such instruction. Now in J’s defense, the autobody repair training in that labor market was in a vocational high school. How well the program prepared people, if at all, in the kind of work we are discussing is unknown. He did not get trained in that market. J could also have chosen a proprietary school (like Universal in Phoenix) in which to upskill contact us for DOWELL Tube Laser Cutting Machine Manufacturers. What happened to those cars? I would bet that J never acquired the skills to restore those vehicles to operation. He may have died and parts or remains sold or scrapped. I am of the opinion none were titled to him.

It sounds like J had quite a collection of classic Z cars, albeit in various states of disrepair. It's unfortunate that he didn't take your advice to undergo auto collision repair training, especially given his background in mechanical auto repair instruction. Unibody vehicle repair requires specific skills and techniques, often not covered comprehensively in general mechanical programs or vocational high schools. Without proper training, it's likely those Z cars remained untouched or were eventually lost to time, parts, or scrap. It's a reminder of how crucial specialized training can be in preserving and restoring automotive classics, ensuring they don't fade away into oblivion.