Ford CEO says electric vehicles may shift to completely online sales.

[John348]

The in person point of purchase has been replaced with a cell phone transaction, and the storefront community dealership network that Steve was a part of has been becoming a memory. Frank mentioned a few post's back how the sale transaction took several hours, today's generation does not have time for that and the commercials we see on TV point that out.  Ford has been in business a long time and they might just have this figured out.

 

Everyone's wants and needs are different, just because a few poster's on this site elect not purchase a new vehicle for one reason or another, they should not feel they are the barometer of the NA auto sales. I have three sons ranging in ages from 38 to 31 all married all have purchased or leased two new vehicles in the last 3 to 5 years (either GM or Jeep Chrysler) so they are the buying market, not us  

Edited June 4, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Cell Phone ? You mean that in addition to nearly emptying my bank account for the car , I would have to finish the job by buying a cell phone and contract ? Canadian, darned near the highest cell phone prices on the planet. No thanks, I will buy new tires for my bicycle.

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John348]

Again, sorry they are not marketing the car to your demographic. I guess the research people figure that if you are not going to purchase a cell phone plan your not going to be in the scope of their marketing plan for a new car.

I don't know your finances, and nor do I care. but I do know people who lease a nice new car for $250 a month and $2500 down. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

The last new { actually 10 months old } car I bought was in 2010. $58.00 bi weekly. A brand new one would have been about $10.00 more , bi weekly. My intention was to buy a brand new one.  The Dealer could not supply a brand new manual trans car within a reasonable length of time so I grabbed a very low mile trade in that met my needs. It has just under 300,000 K's now. I am on the verge of needing to buy another one. They have seemingly vanished from product line up's across the board. I am sure I am not the only person with cash in hand and willingness to buy , only to discover cars of this type are no longer being made. 

 That cell phone you so glibly mention would cost more per month in Canada than my very nearly brand new car did. { seriously } Down in the land of the free,  costs for many items are far cheaper than many other places on the planet. Cell phones are just the tip of the iceberg. Being frugal is a survival skill, how do you think I got to the position of having enough cash set aside to buy a brand new, basic, manual trans  car? If only someone could sell me one. Guess it's back to scanning CL.

 That lease price you mention would have bought outright 3 of my last purchases. ( that includes the fact my costs are in $ Canadian vs the lease you mention in U.S. $ } Perhaps not so great a deal ? My existing car has given 11 years of great service, a very low cost per mile traveled and is still worth about 25 - 30 % of what I paid for it. Just too many K's for me. I used to have a long commute. I also have { hopefully } about 20 years of driving left. That would most likely equate to 2 more new car purchases. The industry is so fat they can walk away from me ? And my wife who would account for 2 more . 

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

John the problem with leases is the mileage limitations. My 11 year old car has 150,000 miles on it and the last two + years I haven’t put more than 4000 miles on it due to Covid. So a three year lease with 30,000 would mean I pay a huge mileage penalty fee or the car would sit in the driveway going no where for one+ of those years. Not a good deal if you drive the car a lot. I do agree and don’t mind the fact they are marketing toward a younger crowd. 
dave s 

Edited June 4, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

That also would have been my situation with a lease. 250,000 K's of commuting in less than 8 years. I got to know the words to all the songs on my CD's by heart.

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

We forget that this topic isn't new.  A lot of years ago, the head of GM was testifying before Congress.  He was asked why GM couldn't build a dependable, affordable car for middle-class families.  His answer was economically sound and politically tone-deaf.  He said:  "We do build such a car.  It's called a two-year-old Buick."

[John348]

26 minutes ago, SC38dls said:

John the problem with leases is the mileage limitations. My 11 year old car has 150,000 miles on it and the last two + years I haven’t put more than 4000 miles on it due to Covid. So a three year lease with 30,000 would mean I pay a huge mileage penalty fee or the car would sit in the driveway going no where for one+ of those years. Not a good deal if you drive the car a lot. I do agree and don’t mind the fact they are marketing toward a younger crowd. 
dave s 

Dave,

You are 100% correct, I did forget to figure that in. I stand corrected and I was wrong, and I thank-you for pointing that out to me

 

I saw an ad on TV the other day for a Grand Wagoneer starting at $90,000..... huh? I can understand the Escalade, the Lincoln, but a Jeep? 

[JACK M]

23 hours ago, SC38dls said:

 They think the internet is the absolute end all and do everything on it, entertainment, social events, buying food to underwear.

I kinda like the convivence of pushing the 'buy it' button on my computer and my underwear shows up the next day.

I buy lots of stuff that way, just yesterday got a new pair of boots and a pair of window cranks and a side mirror for an old pick up I am working on.

No traveling to the store, parking, no standing in line at check out. Get with it man, it's called progress !!

I even buy some of my groceries this way.

 

Cars? not so much.

[Guest]

...and who doesn't like it when the big brown truck shows up with a new package?

[1937hd45]

6 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Cell Phone ? You mean that in addition to nearly emptying my bank account for the car , I would have to finish the job by buying a cell phone and contract ? Canadian, darned near the highest cell phone prices on the planet. No thanks, I will buy new tires for my bicycle.

We have the cell phone deal in common. Every once in a while I do wonder how they make the things work without seeing anyone with an instruction book. The flow of obscenities looking for photos of their kids and cars is the total turn off for me. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

Dave,

You are 100% correct, I did forget to figure that in. I stand corrected and I was wrong, and I thank-you for pointing that out to me

 

I saw an ad on TV the other day for a Grand Wagoneer starting at $90,000..... huh? I can understand the Escalade, the Lincoln, but a Jeep? 

You can understand a tarted up Silverado or F150, but not a tarted up Jeep????

[SC38dls]

5 hours ago, JACK M said:

I kinda like the convivence of pushing the 'buy it' button on my computer and my underwear shows up the next day.

I buy lots of stuff that way, just yesterday got a new pair of boots and a pair of window cranks and a side mirror for an old pick up I am working on.

No traveling to the store, parking, no standing in line at check out. Get with it man, it's called progress !!

I even buy some of my groceries this way.

 

Cars? not so much.

I agree the net can be an easy way to shop. I can’t see it as a way to buy one of the two major purchases a person makes in life, a house or car. Next you’ll be able to get your spouse on line then where would most antique car guys that belong to AACA be! Even if they professed to be good looking like Ed does!  
dave s 

Edited June 4, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[John348]

2 minutes ago, SC38dls said:

I agree the net can be an easy way to shop. I can’t see it as a way to buy one of the two major purchases a person makes in life, a house or car. Next you’ll be able to get your spouse on line then where would most antique car guys that belong to AACA be! Even if they professed to be good looking like Ed! 
dave s 

Dave if you are ordering the vehicle new, and having it built what's the difference?

[SC38dls]

You can’t drive it on-line!  Simple as that, if you can’t see it in person, touch it and drive it you may be getting something entirely different than what you thought you were expecting. Isn’t that what we tell someone when they ask in a thread if they should buy a car from pictures? We tell them pictures can be deceiving so why is it different for a new car?  Buying a pair of boxers or tighty whities is far different than a major life purchase like a 60-90,000 dollar car. 
dave s 

[1912Staver]

35 minutes ago, John348 said:

Dave if you are ordering the vehicle new, and having it built what's the difference?

Having it built ? You mean like base engine , base trans, base trim, no air, no gizmo's  ? What's to " build " ?

K.I.S.S.

The only thing missing on the base model is the big hunk of profit the Manufacturer makes off of selling all those bells and whistles to the rubes.

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Couldn't agree more Dave. If you looked at on line photo's of my little Accent you would only see a bare bones econobox. Drive it for a while and the true virtues become clear. Very good handling after the O.E.M. , bottom of the barrel tires are replaced. Very easy to park. No need for a robot or 27 outside view camera's. Parts are very cheap should you ever need to buy any. Best of all when driving it is the easy equal of any of the " hot hatches " of years gone by as discussed in another thread. It's also the easy equal of any of the many sports cars I have owned over the last 5 decades. 1600 cc, dohc, 16 Valve, VVT, efi, 5 speed. A small car, performance shopping list completely included along with the base model. And it was if not the very cheapest car on the market when I bought it , it was  certainly in the cheapest 3 or 4. And I drive all my cars right on up to the top end of their envelope , conditions allowing. No little old lady driving , just not reckless,

The only thing I don't like about it is the front wheel drive. Lots of feedback through the steering wheel under hard acceleration.

 Remember, my other car is a Lola.

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Making profit is how businesses stay in business.  Unless it’s a privately held company, stock returns are a driving factor in keeping the doors open and people employed. The labor and overhead costs need to be covered too.  Higher profit products are needed to allow lower profit vehicles to exist in the product lineup.  I don’t work for any auto company but I do get the idea that profits are necessary.  

[1912Staver]

Pretty sure Hyundai is doing OK. They may not make a lot on each Accent, but they sure built a heap of them during the model run.

Edited June 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John348]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Having it built ? You mean like base engine , base trans, base trim, no air, no gizmo's  ? What's to " build " ?

K.I.S.S.

The only thing missing on the base model is the big hunk of profit the Manufacturer makes off of selling all those bells and whistles to the rubes.

Not at all! I don't know of a dealer that would even try to special order anything like that

If you never ordered one then you would not know. Things like the like the color, the seats. the radio. the engine (not base). There is no need to test drive something I am not buying off the dealers floor plan. I am only replacing the same truck that is five years old, they only have gotten better each time.  My last five trucks were all ordered this way. I consider myself far from a "rube" I know what I want and I know what I don't want.

 

https://www.gmc.com/trucks/sierra/2500hd-3500hd/sle-slt/build-and-price

Edited June 4, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Hyundai also makes the Genesis line of upscale cars for those who want a little more than the Accent offers.

 

https://www.genesis.com/us/en/genesis.html

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, John348 said:

Not at all! I don't know of a dealer that would even try to special order anything like that

If you never ordered one then you would not know. Things like the like the color, the seats. the radio. the engine (not base). There is no need to test drive something I am not buying off the dealers floor plan. I am only replacing the same truck that is five years old, they only have gotten better each time.  My last five trucks were all ordered this way. I consider myself far from a "rube" I know what I want and I know what I don't want.

 

https://www.gmc.com/trucks/sierra/2500hd-3500hd/sle-slt/build-and-price

John, I was talking about passenger vehicles. Moving me, perhaps one other and once in a blue moon a third person. And yes , a hatch back is very useful for stuff.  

 Commercial use vehicles are a whole different ball game. I used to work at a large GMC truck dealer some years ago. Wheelbase, engine , GVW, duals , single axle , tandem, tractor, conventional truck , cab over all to suit the customers needs.

 Cars can and in my opinion should be kept as simple as possible. I just don't see any need at all to  " build " a daily driver / commuter.

 

K.I.S.S., then you have some money left over for the important things in your life.

 

Any dealer who is telling you something different about daily drivers is looking after his needs , not yours.

 

Color is the easiest of all, whatever is cheapest and in stock when you need it . Henry knew that over 100 years ago.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Fossil]

5 hours ago, John348 said:

Dave if you are ordering the vehicle new, and having it built what's the difference?

We are doing exactly that right now. BUT, we are purchasing exactly the same vehicle that we have now only a different color. After this year they aren't going to be making them and we really like the vehicle. Ours is 3 years old with 26,000 miles and because of the used vehicle situation are offering us a very nice trade in price. The factory where our vehicle is made will be converted to all electrics in the near future. 

The eight year battery warranty sounds good but they'll need to go 200 miles between charges when it's -20 degrees before I would consider one. 

As far as never buying used goes if someone at sometime hadn't bought the vehicle your driving new you'd be walking. It's fine if you don't buy new but do you really think running down someone who does is a good idea? Really??

[John348]

2 hours ago, Fossil said:

 As far as never buying used goes if someone at sometime hadn't bought the vehicle your driving new you'd be walking. It's fine if you don't buy new but do you really think running down someone who does is a good idea? Really??

I am not sure if I understand your point, I was not picking on people buying used cars at all, the point was made toward those who said nobody was buying new cars, and if that was the case then there would be no used cars. I am sorry if you misunderstood me.

[Fossil]

19 hours ago, John348 said:

I am not sure if I understand your point,

That post was not directed towards you. Sorry for the confusion.

Not everyone is able to afford new and I understand that and drove used vehicles for decades. Some of those seem to feel people who either lease or buy new are committing some kind of sin for doing so. They also seem to feel it's their duty to slight people who drive new and that's unfortunate. I hope whatever your driving serves you well and your happy with your purchase, new or used. 

 

 

[Stude Light]

Focusing on EVs....the used car sales market for any specific model is paramount to new car sales. For EVs you get rid of the engine, transmission, fuel system, exhaust and induction system warranty and maintenance. But you still have all the issues with tires, wheels, suspension, brakes (although less wear on brakes), steering, and all those pesky electrical systems in cars like windows, door locks, HVAC, sensors, displays, etc. But you also pick up some new systems like invertors, motors, batteries and lots of new sensors. You also exacerbate things like noise and vibration complaints, since there is no engine noise masking. So, EVs are not totally problem free and you still need a service network. The new motors and invertors are, for the most part, pretty problem free though and greatly reduce overall maintenance.

 

For me, the big issue comes down to a very accurate and dependable means of establishing battery health. That is the primary factor of what a used EV vehicle is worth. Whomever creates a reliable means of determining accurate battery health and establishes credibility of that system will allow the used EV market to be successful. I'm not sure if this comes from the OEMs with very accurate onboard systems, through the dealer network with sophisticated measurement systems or through some third party. Without feeling confident in the battery health, I would be hard pressed in buying any used EV since the battery replacement is most of the value of the car or truck.

[Fossil]

15 hours ago, Stude Light said:

I would be hard pressed in buying any used EV since the battery replacement is most of the value of the car or truck.

Darn, another educated spokesman. Someone quick shove a dirty sock in his mouth before he stirs up trouble. 😉

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:24 AM, Steve Moskowitz said:

The issue I have with Ford is that they pushed, demanded, forced their dealers (like other manufacturers) to invest heavily in facilities and "buy" a corporate look. 

This is exactly what happed to an old Buick dealership in Richmond. The owners finally had enough of GM's tactics and sold their real estate and the dealership rights to different people and retired out of the business.

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:56 AM, 1937hd45 said:

Still would like to know what the percentage of the population can NEVER afford to buy a NEW vehicle. 

I came from a family that bought new vehicles. But, they were the least expensive ones on the lot after the newer models were out.  150s, Biscaynes, and finally a Chevette. Cost per mile was very low. A few years ago there were ads that seemed to sell new cars at very low per month prices*. May be leases in some cases, as John says. But I do not count leasing as OWNING, just borrowing a car one is responsible for everything that goes wrong unless covered by warranty. 😉

 

I live where salt (and that horrible brine beet mixture-must have been developed by the car manufacturers!) is used in winter, but not to the extent of up north, so just brake lines in 10-15 years but the vehicle is still good for 20+ nowadays. 

 

* Of course a certain level of good credit and income is required for this, so still there is a portion of the population that cannot buy these new either.

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, Fossil said:

Darn, another educated spokesman. Someone quick shove a dirty sock in his mouth before he stirs up trouble. 😉

How do establish the known health of an IC powertrain vehicles and it’s longevity when purchasing a used one?  Do you ask the dealer to tear down the engine and measure all clearances and report back?  Carfax attempts to put used car buyers minds at ease but even those reports don’t tell the whole story.  Battery health reports can be a factor in price when more of that data is available and trends are established.  Used car purchases always involve some type of gamble regardless of electrical or gas power.

[John348]

52 minutes ago, TerryB said:

How do establish the known health of an IC powertrain vehicles and it’s longevity when purchasing a used one?  Do you ask the dealer to tear down the engine and measure all clearances and report back?  Carfax attempts to put used car buyers minds at ease but even those reports don’t tell the whole story.  Battery health reports can be a factor in price when more of that data is available and trends are established.  Used car purchases always involve some type of gamble regardless of electrical or gas power.

So true, I still hear of people who know people getting odometers rolled back before they turn in their lease, so if they can do it, so can anyone else. I don't know how that is possible in this day and age. The battery warranty is transferable so I don't see why there is this paranoia. It seems like nobody ever got stuck with a bad transmission on a used car. 

 

1 hour ago, Frank DuVal said:

I came from a family that bought new vehicles. But, they were the least expensive ones on the lot after the newer models were out.  150s, Biscaynes, and finally a Chevette. Cost per mile was very low. A few years ago there were ads that seemed to sell new cars at very low per month prices*. May be leases in some cases, as John says. But I do not count leasing as OWNING, just borrowing a car one is responsible for everything that goes wrong unless covered by warranty. 😉

 

I live where salt (and that horrible brine beet mixture-must have been developed by the car manufacturers!) is used in winter, but not to the extent of up north, so just brake lines in 10-15 years but the vehicle is still good for 20+ nowadays. 

 

* Of course a certain level of good credit and income is required for this, so still there is a portion of the population that cannot buy these new either.

I agree totally, all a lease does is get you a decent car without a big down payment, but you don't own anything. I never leased myself. I pretty sure I will this time for my wife's vehicle. I have always bought new for the past 35 years, the cost per mile is much lower then used as you pointed put. 

[Stude Light]

5 hours ago, TerryB said:

How do establish the known health of an IC powertrain vehicles and it’s longevity when purchasing a used one?  Do you ask the dealer to tear down the engine and measure all clearances and report back?  Carfax attempts to put used car buyers minds at ease but even those reports don’t tell the whole story.  Battery health reports can be a factor in price when more of that data is available and trends are established.  Used car purchases always involve some type of gamble regardless of electrical or gas power.

Compression check, take it for a ride and see how it sounds, drives and shifts. I’ve bought enough ICE vehicles and never got too burned. My point though is the battery in a used EV is like 80 or 90% of the value. A trans job or valve job or head gasket costs a lot less to fix and at least I have some means to evaluate. For a battery pack I need something I trust. That will eventually get established but not sure we are there yet. My assumption is I’m out of the warranty period which is when many used cars are sold.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, Stude Light said:

My point though is the battery in a used EV is like 80 or 90% of the value. A trans job or valve job or head gasket costs a lot less to fix

Well, you bought way higher in the used car market than I did for years! A transmission job was twice the value of most of my cars....😄  That's why I learned to fix them myself.👍