1921 Oldsmobile Model 46 - I ask myself, Why?

[hidden_hunter]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:03 PM, Stude Light said:

Now a question.....I have disassembled two of these Northway V8 engines and got a chance to look inside of a third engine (which is probably the latest model). What I found was baffles on the bottom of the cylinder bores. The picture below is looking between crank throws, up along a connecting rod and looking at the bottom of one of the 8 cylinder bores. I must assume these were installed to reduce the amount of oil thrown on the cylinder walls since the "oil control" ring and scraper rings were not all that capable. There is one on each of the 8 cylinders. I have never seen this before and was curious if other engines have baffles like this?

Just saw this comment, but no they're open on the 22 Cadillac 

 

5 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Angular contact ball bearings are typically more expensive than tapered roller bearings but have a lower rolling resistance which is why they are typically used in premium applications. I'm not sure why Olds decided on these bearings vs tapered roller bearings. I surmise that, since Timken was the premier supplier of tapered roller bearings and still held the patent and GM had acquired New Departure just a few years earlier in 1916, that Olds used the best solution from New Departure.

Wonder if it was only an Oldsmobile thing, Cadillac was using Timkens (375/3720 in the rears... and they weren't 35 bucks to replace)

Edited April 27, 2023 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

I picked up my sandblasted rims yesterday evening. It was 70 degrees and sunny today with rain predicted the next 3 or 4 days so I decided it was a good day to paint. I primed all the rims early in the morning and let them sit in the sun all day.

With the added heat of the sun, the primer cured up well and I was able to topcoat them at the end of the day and they came out very nice. I just used Rust-Oleum products.

I also sandblasted, primed and top coated all the Jaxon wheel wedges and nuts.

By tomorrow I will be ready to powder up the tires, tubes and flaps and install them on the rims. Based on feedback in the technical section I'm just using Johnson's cornstarch based Baby Powder. This is just to keep the tubes from sticking to the tire and flap when you are putting it all together so everything glides and you don't end up with tube folds or stretched areas.

 

The front bearing balls I ordered from McMaster-Carr on Wednesday night are scheduled to arrive tomorrow (Friday). That's less than a 2 day turn around! So, I'll plan to put the front bearings and hubs back together with some quality wheel bearing grease. 

 

I didn't expect to get everything painted today but since I did I was able to pull apart one of the rear wheels from the axle as I want to ensure adequate lube and take a peek at the brakes. After removing the hub cover this is what you see.

I you notice in the above photo, there is a slotted plug on the hub. This is to inject grease into the bearing area if needed, although the bearing is typically packed with a wheel bearing grease that should stay put. These are full floating axles which means that the weight of the vehicle is fully supported by a bearing in the wheel and the axle shaft only provides torque to the wheel - no support. There is no need to remove the nut shown above and put on a tapered axle puller. You just remove the six nuts shown and the entire axle and outer hub just pulls out by hand as an assembly.

Once removed, this is what you see. A very large nut that has locking tabs keeping it from rotating. There is also a gasket on that face to keep the grease from weeping out.

I took a sharp chisel and lifted the locking tab, then used a hammer and brass drift to loosen the nut. I easily unscrewed it by hand once it was loosened. Before pulling on the wheel, I relaxed the brake band a bit and ensured the parking brake was released. The bearing is a very light fit to the housing and I couldn't just pull it off by hand so I used my three jaw puller like this one and just attached it to three of the studs seen above. I was able to turn it by hand and the wheel assembly came right off.

This is the end of the axle housing after you remove the wheel assembly and also allows you to remove/inspect the internally expanding brake shoes if necessary.  I gently tapped the bearing out of the hub.

What a monster double row ball bearing! This bearing supports both the weight of the vehicle on the wheel and reacts the lateral loads when cornering. It is bigger than it looks in the picture and very heavy. No markings on it and I'm glad I don't have to replace it.

I washed it out in some mineral spirits, then used brakleen, then hand packed it with wheel bearing grease.

I reinstalled the bearing, made a new paper gasket that goes between the outer hub/axle assembly and wheel hub and reassembled everything. I will repeat this procedure for the other side tomorrow.

 

[hidden_hunter]

7 hours ago, Stude Light said:

loads when cornering. It is bigger than it looks in the picture and very heavy. No markings on it and I'm glad I don't have to replace it.

Yep, nearly 500 bucks in the cups and bearings 

[dibarlaw]

This is pretty much the same set up as the large series Buicks of the late teens through the 1920s.

[chistech]

The ‘32 olds uses a very similar two row bearing in the free wheeling unit. The bearing is very large (thought probably smaller than yours) but it my understanding that the bearing, originally a New Departure, is no longer made in the same dimensions by anyone. My bearing was fine but I know someone who’s been looking for one for a long time..

[JV Puleo]

My understanding is that New Departure made specialized bearings in fairly small quantities, many for the auto industry. If the original bearing was a ND and you can't find a NOS example about the only alternative is to modify the housing in some way to take another bearing.

[Stude Light]

Adding more detail to the rear axle bearings.....

I removed the axle from the other side. After 100 years of backyard mechanics, the nuts get really messed up from people not having the right tools so my large sockets/wrenches will not fit which forces me to use similar methods - punch and hammer or large channel locks.

The star washer did not have very many tabs left.

I really didn't feel like making a new one and I didn't want the only remaining ones to break when folded so I annealed the tabs by heating them red hot with a torch and letting them air cool. You can see the discoloration. This worked very well as the tabs folded with no issues.

The inboard felt seal on this side was very deformed so I had to make a new one. My felt was about half the thickness as needed.

So I made two seals and bonded the two together with Barge rubber cement.

This is the new felt seal as installed in the housing.

After cleaning and repacking the bearing, I reinstalled it in the hub.

The bearing is slightly recessed in the housing.

And the axle flange has a raised lip that holds that bearing in place.

After measuring the two dimensions, it would require a 0.015" gasket to be line to line. The gasket that came out of each side measured 0.021 - 0.022" and it looked machine cut so I assume it was an original replacement. The design probably has a little tolerance in it to take in account the tolerance stack up without over constraining the axle flange so I decided to use the same thickness that came out. My gasket material is 0.025" and I figure that it will loose a few thousands when compressed with the 6 retaining bolts and end up pretty close to what was there originally. The important take away is to understand the design and not just throw in any thickness gasket. I have some really thick cork gasket and that would not have been a good choice. I make a lot of my own gaskets and am pretty good at it. It was a lot easier than trying to accurately cut felt.

Both bearings are now repacked and installed.

But I have yet to install the axles because I want to properly set up the brakes. Having the axles out removes the drag of the ring and pinion and driveshaft so it's easier to see the influences of just the brakes on the drag. I started with the parking/emergency brake and adjusted it so I get the same performance on left and right sides as you gradually set the brake through each click. The wheels turn easily when the brake is off and both lock solidly now when the brake is fully applied. I will do the service brake next but need a helper to gradually push the pedal while I check each side to get the balance set up correctly.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

I installed the front spindle bearings.

 

I received the new bearing balls from McMaster-Carr. They measure exactly 0.750" and 0.562" which is 0.001 - 0.002" larger in diameter than the originals which I suspect was from the 72,000+ miles of wear using some vintage grease mixtures.

First I filled the inboard race with wheel bearing grease then pushed in each ball and smeared grease over them.

I turned the wheel/hub over and did the same with the outer bearing.

The outer has a wide snap ring retainer that holds the balls in place.

I smeared the spindle with grease, slid on the assembly and installed the large "dust" washer and retaining nut. Like the rear wheel nuts, they are right handed threads on the vehicle right side and left handed threads on left side of the car (driver's side).

Per the adjustment procedure. I tightened the bearing nut "tight" using a 9" wrench then backed off 1/2 of a flat of the nut (~1/12 of a turn). Repeated for both sides. They feel about right 😉.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Tires, tubes and wheels......

 

Based on feedback from my post in Technical, it seems that cornstarch baby powder (vs talc) has worked for others so I went with that since I ran out of talc after replacing a tube in my Studebaker recently, plus it is safer for your health and, as Littlestown Mike pointed out in that post, the lavender scented powder should have a calming effect as I do this job. The whole purpose of using talcum powder in the past is to keep the tube/flap/tire from sticking to one another during the assembly process and possibly folding over the tube or stretching in areas. It allows everything to slip around easily. Once you put 60  psi of air pressure in the tire though, nothing is moving around, just all flexing as a unit.

 

First, I added powder to the inside of the tire, rolled it around and bounced it around. After ensuring all areas inside had a thin powder coat, I ensured any extra got dumped out as you don't want clumps in there.

Next, I partially inflated the tube and put a light coat of powder on that and the flap. I did this over a clean piece of cardboard to ensure I didn't accidently pick up any contaminants.

I installed the tube in the tire. Since this has a straight valve stem, it doesn't matter which way you install the tube.

I then installed the flap.

At this point I always make sure to run my hand along each side of the flap and tube to ensure there are no folds and everything is in its proper place.

At this point I was smelling pretty good. Next I added the bridge washer and stem nut. This goes on top of the flap and you just need to snug the nut and not overtighten it. The bridge washer supports the stem on the rim.

Now you have to decide which side of the tire you want out. These Universal tires have a more pronounced rib on one side vs the other (right side in picture below). This is the side that looks best out, even though it's the same side that says "Made in Vietnam". Tubes made in China but flaps made in USA. I guess a sign of the times in manufacturing. 😞

The rims have an orientation based on how they fit in the wheel felloe so you need to pay attention to which side of the tire to orient the rim to. I started by slipping the rim over the valve stem then used flat bar to start spiraling the rim into the tire. You just keep working it around.

On this rim design, the stem is close to the edge so you have to be a bit careful. I needed to collapse the rim a bit to get the latch aligned and used a rim tool for that. This pulled both ends into place but they were still overlapped a bit.

Now, I used the rim tool to expand the rim. There is a bit of a "sweet spot" for where to place it.

Getting close.

And snap! Everything locks into place.

Time to knock the latch in place.

With the small amount of air in the tube, you can still grab the valve stem and slide it a bit to get the stem perpendicular.

Ensure the bead of the tire is seated in the rim all the way around and it is safe to air it up. To be extra cautious, I just slightly aired up the tire in the rim and placed it on the wheel/felloe before fully filling it. Now is a good time to touch up any paint. And only 4 more to do!

 

The next step is mounting them on the wheels.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Now, on to the wheels. As mentioned, the felloes on the wheels only accept the rim in one direction. The valve stem drops through the hole and the locking clamp pin goes into the recess.

You must orient the wheel so the hole in the felloe is at the top, then lift the rim/tire assembly and drop the stem in.

The rim can now be slipped over the rest of the wheel and it's time to install the wedges and nuts.

The wedges should be gradually tightened opposite each other to center the rim on the wheel. Looking at the gaps between the rim and felloe, I decided to start with the two perpendicular to the one closest to the stem. Then the one most opposite the stem. I'm not sure it matters all that much so long as you try to evenly pull them down. So how much torque? After dropping the tire down to the floor, I "felt" what was about right for this size bolt and application, then put my torque wrench on that.....27 ft lbs. I tightened them all to that reading.

 

Next are the stem to felloe nuts. I just snugged them up....not too tight.

Finished it off with the stem cap.

Finally, all done with the four on the ground and one spare tire.I'm getting kind of close to being done. My portable work table in the background is rather void of parts. I'm signed up to participate in the Congress of Motor Cars tour and show at the Gilmore Car Museum May 19-20 and want to put a few miles on the car first, just to shake it down and maybe change the oil. I typically change oil after the first few hours of operation with a new engine....especially one without a filter.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Dan Cluley]

As someone whose hands on experience has all been with post war cars, this is very interesting. Thank you for showing the process in detail.  

Am I seeing correctly that there is a gap between the rim and the fellow, so the only actual points of contact are the 6 wedges?

[Stude Light]

1 hour ago, Dan Cluley said:

Am I seeing correctly that there is a gap between the rim and the fellow, so the only actual points of contact are the 6 wedges?

The back side of the rim is held tightly against the flange of the steel wrap around the felloe which is what the attaching bolts react against.
 

On the outboard side…..for the most part, yes, the wedges provide the contact points but the area where the rim latch protrudes also heavily contacts. Since the wheels are not perfectly round and the rim has some flex to it, there may be some light contact in other spots but really no support like the wedges.

[Stude Light]

I took the car for a 20 mile drive yesterday. The engine runs great and has a lot of torque. I love the 2 barrel with the added secondaries.....they actually work! The car drives drives great, track well and stops nicely. 40 mph is an easy cruise.

 

The problem is that it spews oil out the back of the engine.....probably a full cup full on the ground after you stop. It's pretty disheartening after all the work. It can only come from two spots:

1) Where the crankshaft exits the rear of the block

2) There is a oil passage out the rear of the crank that has a small hole that picks up oil from the pressurized journal and lubricates the pilot bushing. This path is interrupted by about 2 inches of packed wool felt.

 

 

It is pretty messy around the back of the engine but it appears the oil is slinging off the forward part of the flywheel and not from the clutch side so that means it is coming where the crank exits the block. This engine has no seals and instead has a slinger and drain back cavity. That cavity is only in one side of the two piece block. See photo below.

When I assembled this engine I made sure that drain path was not blocked.

 

My current plan is:

1) To be depressed for a few days

2) Then I will try changing to lighter weight oil (instead of SAE 30). I'm thinking if the drain is just a little restrictive, a lighter oil may just be enough. I will also decrease the oil pressure a bit in the hopes to decrease the oil flow rate out the rear bearing

3) If number 2 doesn't work, there is a slim possibly that I can remove the oil pan, slide the case half bolt out of the way, remove the rear main bearing cap and try to get a tool up there to open it up. I'll have to do a good job catching any metal and flushing the area out and not damaging the crank (although probably not a big deal in that area).

4) If number 3 doesn't work, I'll have to pull the engine out and tear it down and try to figure out what is wrong and how to fix it

5) If number 4 doesn't work, I know where there is a cliff

 

I cleaned everything up and dried up all the oil with mineral spirits. I removed all the underbody panels for clear access and started the engine. It does not leak at an idle. It never did. I tried a high idle and also noticed no oil leakage as it would be easy to see if anything slung off the flywheel. So this issue occurs while driving at higher speeds......so either higher engine rpm, a warmer engine or both.

 

Appreciate any suggestions I'm overlooking. Thanks.

 

[hidden_hunter]

What’s your oil pressure at warm idle?

 

is there any in the fly wheel housing if you remove the plug and stick your finger in there 

Edited May 6, 2023 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

3 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

What’s your oil pressure at warm idle?

 

is there any in the fly wheel housing if you remove the plug and stick your finger in there 

I had the oil pressure at max which was running just over 25 psi going down the road. It would run 20 psi at idle. 
 

Cold idle was 25 psi and I took that down to 20.
 

I’ll have to recheck it with the thinner oil and new pressure setting hot and cold but won’t get to that for several days.

 

This has a cone clutch and large potted flywheel. The flywheel housing is open. Other than slinging some grease from the throwout bearing the cone clutch side is fairly dry. The front of the flywheel and OD up to the starter ring was soaked and would sling oil inside the clutch housing that would then drip on the splash shield under the car along with the rear engine mount cross member. I have taken the splash shield off now and dried everything up so I can easily see any leak path. All I have been able to test so far was idle and running it up to maybe 1500 rpm. I don’t want to rev this long stroke engine up any higher without putting it under load.

 

I won’t get back to testing until next week.

 

[hidden_hunter]

42 minutes ago, Stude Light said:

I had the oil pressure at max which was running just over 25 psi going down the road. It would run 20 psi at idle. 
 

Cold idle was 25 psi and I took that down to 20

I’ll double check the book for the cad but from memory it’s much lower than that, given the similarities of the engine I’m wondering if that could be the issue - does the Oldsmobile book have anything about it under the regulator 

 

Edit: Not sure if this helps, but see if the description of the system is similar but it’s 5-7 lbs at 300 rpm

Edited May 6, 2023 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Is it possible that some oil leakage was considered normal based on a slinger with no sealing capability?

Edited May 6, 2023 by TexRiv_63 (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

1 hour ago, TexRiv_63 said:

Is it possible that some oil leakage was considered normal based on a slinger with no sealing capability?

A few drops are expected but not a cupful. My 1923 Studebaker has a similar slinger setup and doesn’t leak at all so they are capable. The downside of the slinger is there is no way to keep out water and dust.

[Stude Light]

14 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

I’ll double check the book for the cad but from memory it’s much lower than that, given the similarities of the engine I’m wondering if that could be the issue - does the Oldsmobile book have anything about it under the regulator 

Here is what the Oldsmobile Owner's Manual says about oil pressure. You'll notice that the Olds marketing team was not nearly as astute as the Cadillac team for there is no mention of "Oldsmobile Engine Oil" in my book.

 

Cadillac Engine Oil, huh? I'm sure it was drawn from a pristine reservoir of crude oil and personally processed by the Cadillac Car Company employees. 😁

 

My plan was to try to get the oil pressure down to 15-20 psi hot while driving at 40 mph and see if that makes a difference (plus the change to 10w30). Too many other commitments so I can't get to it until this Thursday, which is killing me.

[hidden_hunter]

9 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Here is what the Oldsmobile Owner's Manual says about oil pressure. You'll notice that the Olds marketing team was not nearly as astute as the Cadillac team for there is no mention of "Oldsmobile Engine Oil" in my book.

 

Somewhere else in the book they provide helpful conversion tables just in case you wanted to trawl through all the viscocity at different temperatures...

 

5 pounds at 10 mph would be less than the Cadillac, but 25 for a steadily raced engine would be about the same 

 

Good place to start 

[Stude Light]

I managed to get a run in before it got late today.

 

Using 8w30 (I mixed a little 5w30 in with the 10w30) and reducing the oil pressure I got the following:

 

Idle pressure (same hot/cold) was 15 psi. No rear engine leak.

 

Driving up to 30 mph oil pressure reached 18 psi. No leak

 

Driving up to 40 mph oil pressure peaked at 22 psi. Lots of oil out the back. Maybe slightly improved.

 

I am not sure if it is oil pressure or engine rpm related. Tomorrow I will turn down the pressure to a maximum of 18 psi at 40 mph and see what happens. If it still leaks it’s rpm related, if not, I’ll dial up to the max pressure before it starts to leak. I have a feeling I’ll be dropping the pan and going to option 3 from above and seeing if I can open up the drain back hole with the engine together 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

In other news….I had sent my speedometer out to Russ Furstnow to get rebuilt. I received that back, with a couple of extra drive links to replace the one that broke due to the speedometer gear locking up. I installed it and it works great! Russ is a great guy to work with too.

 

[Stude Light]

Today's driving test was 35mph at 18 psi oil pressure and that is where it just starts to leak out the rear of the engine so it looks like my oil leakage issue is driven more by engine rpm than oil pressure. Up to 30mph it stays perfectly dry. My next step then is to pull the oil pan, engine cross bolt and rear cap, look at the oil drain back hole and see if there is anything in there and try opening it up a bit. When I assembled the engine I made sure to verify the path so I'm not sure what I will find or what else I can do.

 

The only other thing I can think of is that the parting line of the engine block is vertical and maybe it's leaking there. Have to pull the flywheel to look back there and I'm not sure there is even enough access behind the crankshaft flange. I've run out of time to do much more work on it this summer with all of life's other events. Too bad as the car runs and drives really well 😞.

[nickelroadster]

Oil is pretty cheap although it would be nice to get it leak proof.  Just think of it as British anti corrosion protection.

[wyankee]

Maybe adapt a Model A Ford rear main oil janitor? (I don't know how to attach a picture).

[Stude Light]

The oil issue was bugging me and, rather than give up the summer, I managed to find 3 hours between all my other commitments this weekend. Not the picture I had in my head a couple of weeks ago.

The gasket I put on with the Hylomar peeled off nicely and, using acetone, I was able to clean it up along with the two surfaces it contacts. This is not the experience I had on my LaSalle oil pan gasket a few months ago but that was a different gasket material. I did have one spare oil pan gasket for the other side of the spacer so I'm set on gaskets.

 

Now, for the rear slinger oil drain back hole.... I was able to remove the lower rear case half stud and get clear view of that area without having to remove the rear bearing.

The largest drill I could pass through the drain hole was a 5/32". I stepped up to an 11/64" drill and that cleared out a few edges and started cleaning up the hole. Using 11/64" as a starting point, I incrementally increased the hole diameter to 1/4".

While it doesn't look like much, that is a 210% increase in area. 

 

Another thing I did since I have the pan off, was to add some sealant to the outside of the block where the two halves come together. The oil is either coming from the slinger cavity or through a leak in the block halves so I figured I would attack both areas. There isn't much room behind the crankshaft flange so I had to use a mirror and light.

You can see the parting line in the case halves in the shot below.

I cleaned everything up as best I could and got all the oil off. I made a hook on the end of a piece of wire to apply sealer and used that to reach up there.

I have to say I have a new respect for my dental hygienist as working using a mirror takes some skill and practice. I reshaped my wire and smoothed things out with it.

Trying to get a post application photo doesn't show much but the seam is covered.

The case half stud provides a barrier to keep oil splash from the crankshaft from hitting the hole so I don't think I need to add a shield. Hopefully I can carve a few hours out to reassemble and test this before the Congress of Motor Cars at Gilmore this coming weekend and I might just be able to take this car.

[Stude Light]

I was getting ready to button the engine up today but I decided to do one last check first. I thought I would pass a small thin SS wire through the slot below to ensure it was clear.

This slot is only in the bearing side of the block and both ends you see above are accessible with the engine assembled. You can't see it in the photo below but if I would have taken the picture from the rear of the block the two openings would have been visible.

So, I was feeding the wire through the bottom slot and it kept going but did not come out of the top slot. So I looked up in the block and saw the wire, then got my mirror and found a casting flaw. You can see the hole the wire came through in the mirror in the photo below.

It wasn't a big hole but I don't think it is supposed to be there. I'm not sure why that oil slot is there. My best guess is that, with the step up in diameter of the crankshaft in that location, it acts as a pre slinger to drain the oil coming out of the rear bearing. I not positive that the casting flaw is causing an issue but perhaps it was allowing oil splash from the rear of the block to overwhelm the slot's drain function.

 

I first flushed the area with Brakleen several times to get all the oil removed. Then, using a mirror and wire again, I gradually built up JB Weld over the hole. I used JB Kwik as it just needs to cover the hole and there is no stress in the area but mostly because I didn't want the adhesive to flow into the hole. I dabbed some around the hole first and let it stiffen up which only takes about 5 minutes. While still soft, I mixed a new batch and layered it up. I repeated this process, adding additional layers to the previous layer, which got stiff but was still very sticky. By doing it this way, I kept the adhesive from flowing down in the hole while making a decent sized patch that should stay put. Each layer will adhere well to the layer under it resulting in a solid patch that mimics a single mix.

 

After I was done, I tried my little wire trick again and it popped out the opposite hole proving my glue job didn't plug the slot.

 

Between opening up the drain back hole, adding sealant to the case half seam and slinger seam and plugging this hole, I'm really hoping I solve my oil leakage issue. I'll find out tomorrow.

 

[Stude Light]

Well, the test results are in: No change.

 

I dropped the oil level to 4qts and pressure to max of 15 psi. No change.

 

Drain back is open, everything is correct in the rear of the engine, it has an unrestricted 1-1/2” diameter engine breather.

 

Unless someone can think of something I’m overlooking, I have to conclude that the engine is poorly designed to today’s standards and slings oil at higher speeds. It runs and drives wonderfully. I just can’t park in people’s paved driveways. Reminds me of parking an early REO with a total-loss oiling system. It always marks its territory.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

6 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Unless someone can think of something I’m overlooking, I have to conclude that the engine is poorly designed to today’s standards and slings oil at higher speeds. It runs and drives wonderfully. I just can’t park in people’s paved driveways. Reminds me of parking an early REO with a total-loss oiling system. It always marks its territory.

how much is it leaving at the moment? a 30 min run at 40mph I get at worst a couple of drops

[JV Puleo]

This is just suggestion but have you thought to try looking at a contemporary edition of PM Heldt's "The Gasoline Automobile." Heldt was the editor of Horseless Age and a very competent engineer. He published an engineering manual that was updated every few years. I'd look for an edition printed shortly after this car was built. His books are, by far, the best source I've seen for period engineering solutions. Unlike nearly all the others, they are aimed at engine designers rather than mechanics. In fact, not being an engineer myself I am not qualified to understand many of his explanations and I don't have a copy that is late enough for your car but there is a very good chance he discusses oil slingers and how they work. I'd approach this problem from the direction of "how do they work" and "how can I achieve this" rather than "how did they do it".

Edited May 18, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

6 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

how much is it leaving at the moment? a 30 min run at 40mph I get at worst a couple of drops

The rear cross member will be wet and dripping as the flywheel slings oil directly on it. It all comes from the face of the flywheel and the only means of putting oil on that face is from the interface where the crank exits the block. I considered the port that oils the pilot bushing but that is on the clutch side of the flywheel, which is dry. Also, it doesn't leak at all if you are idling (low or high idle) which runs at the same oil pressure as when driving.

 

After it is parked it will leave about a tablespoon which can make a decent sized puddle once spread out. I'm stumped.

[Stude Light]

Thinking about this problem, this really shouldn't be leaking. Other cars of the era that have the same setup don't dump this much oil out the engine. I took an engineering approach to the data.

 

I first noticed the leak when driving and not idling. I made the assumption that it was due to engine rpm at the higher speeds so I went after all I could to ensure the slinger drain back hole was free from obstruction and had adequate area of opening. I also made sure the the cavity in which the slinger throws the oil was sealed up at the seams. I checked everything else in the area and found that thin casting machined through and fixed that. That entire area is put together per the design so I'm crossing all that off my list as the cause.

 

Next I tried playing with oil viscosity, oil volume and oil pressure which covers all I can change that would influence the dynamics of how the oil flows and is slung back there. That gets crossed off.

 

So, I thought about the first assumption I made - the leakage occurs due to the higher engine rpm when driving at higher speeds. Let's throw that out. What else happens at higher speeds? Transmission is now operating, wheels are turning, have to steer and use the brakes and lots of wind. The trans, wheels, steering and brakes should not affect this area. My cornering ahs been quite mild but could braking cause oil oil to slosh? Yes, but that would be forward though and the car doesn't accelerate that fast but it is an area to ponder. Having that big screened windage tray in the oil pan should really prevent any significant sloshing of the oil. What how about the wind? Hmmm.

 

The engine has a nice big 1-1/2" vent on top of the valve covers and I previously verified that it has adequate access to the engine case just by design plus it is the oil fill and will take it as fast as you can pour and you can watch the oil level gauge move just as fast. But maybe the engine compartment is getting pressurized and the air pressure is blowing oil out the back slinger area. The engine splash pans are missing so you would think this would decrease the under hood pressure as most all the air flow is through the radiator. (BTW - that little 4 bi-wing bladed fan pumps the air. With the hood closed and idling it is amazing how much air comes through those hood vents.)

 

It is worth a test. I took the suction hose off my small shop-vac and taped it around the engine vent/oil filler tube and then routed it out under the right side running board.

I took it for a two mile test run - dry!!!

I then filled it back to 5 quarts and turned the oil pressure up to 22 psi  and took it on a 5 mile drive, running 40-42 mph most of the way - DRY!!!

 

The cause of the oil leakage is the lack of a draft tube and having just a vent/fill tube. I'll have to come up with a more robust setup that has a factory look. That is a lot easier than putting in a lip seal. I can stop thinking about this now and move on (and sleep better). 😀😁

 

 

 

[zdillinger]

11 minutes ago, Stude Light said:

Thinking about this problem, this really shouldn't be leaking. Other cars of the era that have the same setup don't dump this much oil out the engine. I took an engineering approach to the data.

 

I first noticed the leak when driving and not idling. I made the assumption that it was due to engine rpm at the higher speeds so I went after all I could to ensure the slinger drain back hole was free from obstruction and had adequate area of opening. I also made sure the the cavity in which the slinger throws the oil was sealed up at the seams. I checked everything else in the area and found that thin casting machined through and fixed that. That entire area is put together per the design so I'm crossing all that off my list as the cause.

 

Next I tried playing with oil viscosity, oil volume and oil pressure which covers all I can change that would influence the dynamics of how the oil flows and is slung back there. That gets crossed off.

 

So, I thought about the first assumption I made - the leakage occurs due to the higher engine rpm when driving at higher speeds. Let's throw that out. What else happens at higher speeds? Transmission is now operating, wheels are turning, have to steer and use the brakes and lots of wind. The trans, wheels, steering and brakes should not affect this area. My cornering ahs been quite mild but could braking cause oil oil to slosh? Yes, but that would be forward though and the car doesn't accelerate that fast but it is an area to ponder. Having that big screened windage tray in the oil pan should really prevent any significant sloshing of the oil. What how about the wind? Hmmm.

 

The engine has a nice big 1-1/2" vent on top of the valve covers and I previously verified that it has adequate access to the engine case just by design plus it is the oil fill and will take it as fast as you can pour and you can watch the oil level gauge move just as fast. But maybe the engine compartment is getting pressurized and the air pressure is blowing oil out the back slinger area. The engine splash pans are missing so you would think this would decrease the under hood pressure as most all the air flow is through the radiator. (BTW - that little 4 bi-wing bladed fan pumps the air. With the hood closed and idling it is amazing how much air comes through those hood vents.)

 

It is worth a test. I took the suction hose off my small shop-vac and taped it around the engine vent/oil filler tube and then routed it out under the right side running board.

I took it for a two mile test run - dry!!!

I then filled it back to 5 quarts and turned the oil pressure up to 22 psi  and took it on a 5 mile drive, running 40-42 mph most of the way - DRY!!!

 

The cause of the oil leakage is the lack of a draft tube and having just a vent/fill tube. I'll have to come up with a more robust setup that has a factory look. That is a lot easier than putting in a lip seal. I can stop thinking about this now and move on (and sleep better). 😀😁

 

 

 

This is simply outstanding detective work. Very well done!!!

[hidden_hunter]

5 hours ago, Stude Light said:

The cause of the oil leakage is the lack of a draft tube and having just a vent/fill tube. I'll have to come up with a more robust setup that has a factory look. That is a lot easier than putting in a lip seal. I can stop thinking about this now and move on (and sleep better). 😀😁

 

The Cadillac has breathers on both sides of the crank case, is there any provision for those?

[Stude Light]

38 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

The Cadillac has breathers on both sides of the crank case, is there any provision for those?

No. But another 1921 at the RE Olds Museum has the breathers/fillers on the sides of the block. The spare engine a friend has is exactly like mine. The Owners Manual only discusses the setup I have. This engine started production in 1916 so you would think that by 1921, issues would be resolved. That said, the Model 46 was new late in 1920 but it was almost the same car as the Model 45 it replaced.

[bradsan]

It would be interesting to see if adding the missing splash pans actually corrected the problem too.

Maybe what we've been calling 'splash' pans all these year are actually 'PCV' pans.😁

Epic detective work and astounding patience.

[EmTee]

Are the rings sealing properly?  I agree that it sounds like the crankcase is being pressurized.  If the venting is as-designed, then the question I have is why is the crankcase pressure too high?

[JV Puleo]

This is an outstanding job of fixing a mysterious problem...

Here's my question... if keeping the oil filled/vent open solved the pressure issue I'd guess that whatever normally closes that is the main problem. All of the combined filler/vent covers I've seen included a way for air to pass through without splashing oil everywhere. Is is possible you simply have the wrong cover...one that fits and is of the period but not actually the one designed for that engine. Or...that you have the right cover but it is somehow "plugged", even to a small amount.

[Stude Light]

11 hours ago, EmTee said:

Are the rings sealing properly?  I agree that it sounds like the crankcase is being pressurized.  If the venting is as-designed, then the question I have is why is the crankcase pressure too high?

Yes, rings, pistons and bores are new and there is no-blow by coming out of the vent. It is fine stationary at any rpm and you can’t feel anything out the vent. Crankcase gets pressurized with higher pressure air coming in the vent and exiting out the rear of the crank when the car is driven at higher speeds. The only other exit is at the front of the crank which also sees a higher pressure than the rear at speed.

9 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

This is an outstanding job of fixing a mysterious problem...

Here's my question... if keeping the oil filled/vent open solved the pressure issue I'd guess that whatever normally closes that is the main problem. All of the combined filler/vent covers I've seen included a way for air to pass through without splashing oil everywhere. Is is possible you simply have the wrong cover...one that fits and is of the period but not actually the one designed for that engine. Or...that you have the right cover but it is somehow "plugged", even to a small amount.

Thanks for the compliment. What solved the issue was moving the vent to a lower pressure area that isn’t under the hood directly behind the fan. The vent cap is original, screened and clear of obstruction. Again, it is located in a higher pressure area compared to the crankshaft outlet in the rear so the air was flowing in the vent and blowing out back taking the oil mist in the engine with it.

 

As mentioned above,  a third engine has extra vents on the side of the block so this was probably found to be a problem and implemented a change on a late engine design. My block does not have the provisions in the block and it’s easier to reroute the vent than to bird a hole in the block at this point.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Working on changing my engine vent to a draft tube. 
 

I started by going through the Gates Coolant Hose catalog and selecting a hose with a 1-1/2” ID and a quick 180 degree bend. 
 

Gates 20722

Also picked up some 1-1/4” ID flexible exhaust tubing. I formed up some clamps out of 3/4” wide flat stock. After some modification it looks like this. 

When I was done, I thought I just created a laundry hose that hangs over the tub 😁

 

This is what it looks like installed.

I added a screen in the end to keep the critters out.

I think it’s okay looking for now. I didn’t have the right size vintage clamps so I’ll add those when I find some and maybe next winter I’ll convert to a solid custom bent pipe.