1932 Nash selling at Auburn

[md murray]

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af20/auburn-fall/lots/l0097-1932-nash-advance-eight-convertible-sedan-by-seaman/887404

 

What a great looking car. It's being offered along with some other really interesting original Walter Miller cars. Anybody know the scoop? I assume that's an older repaint?

[Marty Roth]

A great and beautiful car, obviously well-loved and well-used-

could be a fun tour/driver

[auburnseeker]

Any Guesses on price?  I'll open at 40-45G.  Judging by what some Auburns have been selling for lately and what that green Packard dual cowl Phaeton brought.  Could have stood a detailing before selling.  It would just make it look more loved than neglected. 

[alsancle]

I'm gonna guess anywhere from 40-50 all in.   We have two public price points from the last couple of years on the Advanced Eight.  The restored one at Guyton brought a LOT of money.

 

There is only one Ambassador, I believe.

[auburnseeker]

Remember the Auburn Auction last fall where this Auburn sold for 60G.  Of all places I would have thought Auburn would have yielded a higher sale price.

[Walt G]

Did this Nash at one time belong to Richard Miller of long island, NY then relocate to West Virginia when he moved there. If it was on long  Island with Richie Miller I know the car, this would have been 40+ years ago and I think he got the car from the Utica, NY area. Richie and his wife Joan also owned a 1932 Reo Flying Cloud conv coupe, a Nash sedan of the same series as the conv sedan, a Stutz limousine with a Rollston body , and a Marmon Little 8 touring car and a i believe a Gardner roadster.

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, Walt G said:

Did this Nash at one time belong to Richard Miller of long island, NY then relocate to West Virginia when he moved there. If it was on long  Island with Richie Miller I know the car, this would have been 40+ years ago and I think he got the car from the Utica, NY area. Richie and his wife Joan also owned a 1932 Reo Flying Cloud conv coupe, a Nash sedan of the same series as the conv sedan, a Stutz limousine with a Rollston body , and a Marmon Little 8 touring car and a i believe a Gardner roadster.

 

Walt,  I thought Walter Miller owned this for years and years.  Are they related?

[F&J]

19 hours ago, md murray said:

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af20/auburn-fall/lots/l0097-1932-nash-advance-eight-convertible-sedan-by-seaman/887404

 

What a great looking car. It's being offered along with some other really interesting original Walter Miller cars. Anybody know the scoop? I assume that's an older repaint?

Old repaint, by looking at lower firewall pic you can see some original 1932 paint color near the tag.  That original firewall mat cover looks like it's never been off.   The tag decodes as: 10 is 1932 second series, 9 will mean Advanced 8 or Ambassador, depending on what is the last number....which being 3 adds up to Advanced 8 4 door conv sedan.  The suffix "  -8 " means it's the 8th 1093 body off the line.

 

 

I'm out of the loop... Walter Miller Cars?  Is this the recently passed Walter Miller of Literature Fame?  I recently joined the Nash club and when viewing past and present owners 1932 Nashes, I know I saw that name as listed for one of the 4 door convertibles and wondered if it was the literature Walter.

 

I got this 32 2nd series fold out from the literature Walter:

This one is printed in Dutch,  the 1093 is shown in the lower right group of 90 Series offerings.  The 3 closed cars in the bottom center are the biggest, Ambassador LWB offerings which are "90 series" as well.  It does not show a Ambassador Conv Sedan, but I have seen an omission on the 1933 Nash "Full Line poster". (In that case they did not list a 6 convertible sedan for 33, but one fully documented one with proper body tag exists today.)

 

I know I read someplace years ago stating " 3 Ambassador conv sedans were built. but only one survives".  That must have been about 1933 models because that statement also shows up on the Nash site describing that one survivor.  As a young guy I happened to see it in an open sided pole barn in far Northern Mass in the late 70s or very early 80s stored with many dozens of Nash and some other brands.

Pic above is right after Tom Lester bought it.  Then fully restored, then sold after his passing but now in the Nash club with latest owner, listed as a 1193 which is confusing to me as a non-expert trying to learn precise model numbers.  .The 11 means 33, but I was under the impression that 93 meant Advanced 4 door conv?

 

I wish I could find my 1933 poster to see if they listed a Ambassador 4 dr conv, and if so, what model number did it carry?. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by F&J (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Richard "Richie" Miller and Water Miller were not related. Richie moved to Gatlinburg, Tennessee , I thought it was West Virginia but later checked after I made the post. Richie loved the big 1932-1933 Nash cars and had a sedan as well that he drove for decades ( Austin Clark may have made a post card of that sedan) . The car that Walter Miller had he may have bought from Richie Millers estate after Richie passed away. That I do not know.

Walt

[alsancle]

13 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Remember the Auburn Auction last fall where this Auburn sold for 60G.  Of all places I would have thought Auburn would have yielded a higher sale price.

 

 

The Auburn comp is interesting.  They are visually very similar,  both straight eight engines.   The Nash Advanced Eight was probably a tad more expensive when new.   The Nash is rare,  the Auburn has a bigger following.

 

[alsancle]

The Guyton car brought a lot of money - 340k all in.   But as we say constantly around here,  was maybe smarter than getting the subject car for free and doing the restoration.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0042-1932-nash-advanced-eight-convertible-sedan-by-seaman/750691

 

[alsancle]

Btw,  is it just me or are the Auburn and Nash bodies identical?

[md murray]

12 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Btw,  is it just me or are the Auburn and Nash bodies identical?

Yep! ...pretty funny

[F&J]

36 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Btw,  is it just me or are the Auburn and Nash bodies identical?

If you study very closely, the belt is different on the cowl, the lower part of windshield is straight across the width, versus slightly curved up on the Nash.  The belt is slightly different at the very front part of front doors.

 

I've always thought that Nash tried to borrow various styling details from all 3 of ACD built cars. 

 

 

[F&J]

57 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The Guyton car brought a lot of money - 340k all in.   But as we say constantly around here,  was maybe smarter than getting the subject car for free and doing the restoration.

Well, depends on where a person resides in the financial food chain, 😮 ... If you really zoom in on the blue Nash, you can see the inevitable, albeit extremely minor, signs of a 1000 point Pebble Beach restoration starting to age..  

 

So, if a lower funded person just "has to have a big Nash" and isn't into competition and wants to be able to drive the wheels off of it, you'd need to find a body guy that knows how to put the subject Nash back into proper factory paint colors, fix the loose wood joints in at least the LF and RR doors, but not tear it all apart.  More like a  used car "fixer upper", and nowhere near the term restoration.  There are a few shops I've seen online, that could pull it off and still keep the general look as being a "repainted survivor".  Good prewar survivors have been gaining respect and more buyers for at least the last few years.

 

BTW ...the blue Nash certainly proves AJ's view on just how great certain cars do look in blackwalls.  Hot Damn

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, F&J said:

Well, depends on where a person resides in the financial food chain, 😮 ... If you really zoom in on the blue Nash, you can see the inevitable, albeit extremely minor, signs of a 1000 point Pebble Beach restoration starting to age.. 

 

Frank,  did you know it has been to Pebble or was that an educated guess?

 

[F&J]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Frank,  did you know it has been to Pebble or was that an educated guess?

It was an educated guess, meaning that I DO see it was a top shelf, no expense withheld restoration.  So, I knew it just had to have been shown against the best of the top shelf contenders.

 

 

Back to what was said about current/past collector desirability of the Auburn instead of a big Nash, I honestly believe that the Nash brand name, even if subconsciously,  carries the negative stigma of the dying decade of Nash and then turning to another negative stigma, the Rambler.  Many people my age, when buying our first cheap teenage daily driver cheap used car in the mid to late 60s, would never consider these brands.  They had the stigma of being everyone's last choice just like Studebakers.

 

When I started going to Hershey in 71, I only had time to look in the lower priced classes of 1929-1930 because of the 29 Desoto roadster I had.  One year, while heading to the old long tar show field. I spotted a huge early 30s very expensive looking ambulance.  I sidetracked over to read the grille emblem..WTH? Nash???  I never had a clue that Nash ever built such monster high end classy cars.  It was a 32 First series, LWB Ambassador? perhaps it was.

 

Then, when going up to that pole barn in Mass decades ago to look at a couple of cars listed in Hemmings, we were headed to the open pole barn and I saw that huge Nash from quite a distance.  I asked the sawmill yard worker who was showing me around, if that was a Duesenberg!  He said no, it's a Nash.  I said are you kidding?

 

Point being, if a person was never exposed (back in the pre-internet decades) (or in person), to the fact that Nash made the "Kenosha Duesenbergs", you didn't even bother to read a Nash ad in Hemmings. 

 

 

I don't mean to disrespect anyone in life, but I certainly know that some extremely wealthy people tend to purchase what their peers do. Thank goodness they are a very small minority, as all prewars should be coveted/preserved by someone.

 

Me? and my little poser 32 Nash conv sedan?  Sure, I still wish I could have a big series Nash, but for a long time now, it really suits me as now a very low income person, ......probably just like the first owner was in 32.  That body style on an entry level chassis, allowed the lower end buyers to kinda have a "classy looking upscale car".

 

 

[alsancle]

Frank,  your Nash is very cool and attractive.   I'm a car snob and I love it.

 

I'm struggling with the Auburn vs Nash thing because my natural inclination would be to take the Nash 9 times out of 10,  but I don't really have a reason why.   Rarity? Longer wheelbase?  Slightly lower windshield?   The twin plug overhead valve thing is nice,  but not huge to me.   125HP vs what in the Auburn?

[F&J]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I'm struggling with the Auburn vs Nash thing because my natural inclination would be to take the Nash 9 times out of 10,  but I don't really have a reason why.   Rarity? Longer wheelbase? 

I have always thought the 31/32 Auburn is one of those rare "pinnacle" automotive styling designs, referring to a styling & proportions homerun.  To choose only one word, it would be stunning, vs. beautiful or classy.

 

If I had to choose between the best Auburn 4dr conv or the blue Nash above, I'd go with the nash.  Same would be true if choice between the Miller Nash in it's condition vs a 31/32 Auburn 4dr conv in same condition....But I don't honestly know why either.

 

I keep forgetting to say that when I went through the members-only 32 Nash Club's current owners photos, there is a hardcore 32 Nash-only collector in the eastern US that has nearly 2 dozen of all the 8 cylinder models, mostly 2nd series but some high end big 1st series too. About half are open cars: conv sedans and 2 sizes of conv coupes (which are scarcer). 

[edinmass]

Take a close look at the car up for auction, I like it, and have inspected the Guyton car since the sale, as it ended up with a friend. Walter’s old car is on my want to own list. A quick back of the envelope calculation makes me think the number being tossed around is too high. I’ll guess 35k all in.........maybe.

[F&J]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Walter’s old car is on my want to own list.

That would be cool if you end up with it.  I won't ask if you plan on bidding, but even as a person not following past or current auctions, I think that 35k would be near impossible, as in too low.  I am thinking the 32 Nash collector I spoke of, might not be bidding on it because he has at least 3 1932 second series 4 dr conv sedans, in 80 and 90 series.

 

 

BTW AJ, my senior moment lasted only 24 hours... I just now found my 1933 full line sales poster.  Years back Dave Mitchell was restoring a clients big series 32 conv sedan, and he was totally adamant that Nash never, ever, offered a 4 door convertible on the Ambassador 142 WB in 32 or 33.  He insisted that the longest WB on all of those convs was the 133, despite me asking about the "one survivor out of 3" story...

 

...I will take a pic of the poster in daylight, but I now see where the confusion comes from.  Nash simply changed the model names on the prior Advanced 8 1932 Conv to now be known as the 33 Ambassador Conv, but the WB stayed the same at 133. I assume the 33 Ambassador conv likely now had the biggest engine and other Ambassador features, but the new name switch did not mean anything about WB getting longer like all of the 32 Ambassadors had ( only 3 styles of bodies, all closed ).

[edinmass]

I wasn’t planning on bidding on it. I recently looked at another Nash, and the market, currently; is strikingly poor. A close examination of Walters car should cause anyone to be sure to calculate the minimum requirement of investment to make a reliable driver........I have an opinion as to required value of work to make it a reliable fun car.......if there are unknown issues, then it probably makes sense to walk away. 

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, F&J said:

That would be cool if you end up with it.  I won't ask if you plan on bidding, but even as a person not following past or current auctions, I think that 35k would be near impossible, as in too low.  I am thinking the 32 Nash collector I spoke of, might not be bidding on it because he has at least 3 1932 second series 4 dr conv sedans, in 80 and 90 series.

 

 

BTW AJ, my senior moment lasted only 24 hours... I just now found my 1933 full line sales poster.  Years back Dave Mitchell was restoring a clients big series 32 conv sedan, and he was totally adamant that Nash never, ever, offered a 4 door convertible on the Ambassador 142 WB in 32 or 33.  He insisted that the longest WB on all of those convs was the 133, despite me asking about the "one survivor out of 3" story...

 

...I will take a pic of the poster in daylight, but I now see where the confusion comes from.  Nash simply changed the model names on the prior Advanced 8 1932 Conv to now be known as the 33 Ambassador Conv, but the WB stayed the same at 133. I assume the 33 Ambassador conv likely now had the biggest engine and other Ambassador features, but the new name switch did not mean anything about WB getting longer like all of the 32 Ambassadors had ( only 3 styles of bodies, all closed ).

 

So the Tom Lester car is visually identical to this car but with a bigger engine?   They do look the same.

 

[F&J]

That IS the 33 Ambassador Lester car before restoring, and it is the same one I saw at the sawmill pole barn just northeast of Athol Mass.  It honestly looked so huge in person as it sat lengthwise on the outside row, barely out of the rain. 

 

The mill owner was a Nash guy and also an antique car flipper. A 76 yr old local friend of mine was very good friends with that mill owner who was named Hutchinson or Hutchison.  His yard worker told me that the boss bought logs out of Canada frequently, and often had his guys go up there to haul antiques back to the mill,  I have no info how long he owned it, or where he got it.  It may have been kept until his passing, as it was the only big Nash in that huge building as I recall.

 

EDIT, now I think you knew that one was the Lester car. So to answer your question about the Miller car, I think the Lester car simply has to have the bigger motor, but definitely is the same 133WB

Edited July 11, 2020 by F&J (see edit history)

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, F&J said:

That IS the 33 Ambassador Lester car before restoring, and it is the same one I saw at the sawmill pole barn just northeast of Athol Mass.  It honestly looked so huge in person as it sat lengthwise on the outside row, barely out of the rain. 

 

The mill owner was a Nash guy and also an antique car flipper. A 76 yr old local friend of mine was very good friends with that mill owner who was named Hutchinson or Hutchison.  His yard worker told me that the boss bought logs out of Canada frequently, and often had his guys go up there to haul antiques back to the mill,  I have no info how long he owned it, or where he got it.  It may have been kept until his passing, as it was the only big Nash in that huge building as I recall.

 

EDIT, now I think you knew that one was the Lester car. So to answer your question about the Miller car, I think the Lester car simply has to have the bigger motor, but definitely is the same 133WB

 

Thanks Frank.  Yes,  I knew that was the Lester car but should have been more clear.    I mentioned this in your thread, I'm sure, but Richard Blomquist was selling a 1090 club sedan with a rear spare 10 or 15 years ago that was SO COOL.  Seems to have disappeared.

 

 

[58L-Y8]

The 1932-'33 Nash are Kenosha's most attractively styled 1930's products, is there a consensus who the designer(s) was/were?   Count de Sahkoffsky was credited with the 1934, though those look a tad overwrought with too many speed lines.  

[F&J]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Richard Blomquist was selling a 1090 club sedan with a rear spare 10 or 15 years ago that was SO COOL.  Seems to have disappeared

I remember it well, he listed it several times on Ebay then told the viewers "Come on people! this is a special car!  BTW, Richard bought a nice pair of sidemount fenders and metal covers offered to the potential buyers, but whomever bought it did not take them.

 

 

Here's pics of a 32 and a 33 sales folders.

Above pic is 32 printed in Dutch,  showing the 90 series, but only the 133WB models available.  That conv sedan is the biggest 32 conv, but listed in 32 as Advanced, not an Ambassador.

 

above pic showing the only 3 of the 90 series models that had the 142 WB in 1932. These 3 were the only Ambassadors for 32.

 

 

 

 

Below pics from the 1933 folder, note that Nash now renamed the models in the bigger series for some reason. The first of the below pics show that even though the these were now named Ambassors, they still rode on 133WB.  This must be why the Lester car was said to be
one of 3 made"?  Meaning it is the only known surviving Ambassador conv sedan

Below, the 1933 142 WB offerings at bottom edge of this pic, same as 1932.

 

Ok, I'd need to take these out of the frames to read the specs on the backs, to know just what other Ambassador features the Lester car would have, compared to a 1932 Advanced 8 conv sedan.

 

But, looking in the Standard Catalog of US cars, it says all 90 series cars had the big 322 engine, and all 80 series had the 260...for 32 and 33 as well.   So, apparently the Lester car must be the only 322 engine conv sedan known? and the Miller car must have the 260?  it seems so.

 

 

 

 

.

 

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, F&J said:

But, looking in the Standard Catalog of US cars, it says all 90 series cars had the big 322 engine, and all 80 series had the 260...for 32 and 33 as well.   So, apparently the Lester car must be the only 322 engine conv sedan known? and the Miller car must have the 260?  it seems so.

 

So are the blocks on the Ambassador identical and the only difference is the stroke to get the displacement?   I'm definitely confused  but you have helped immensely with the wheelbase information.   I was a member of the Nash club for a long time but my wife pays my membership dues and looks like that one got dropped at some point.

 

This is supposed to be an Ambassador coupe.   I assume a 133 wheelbase?  It looks longer.

 

 

 

[F&J]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

So are the blocks on the Ambassador identical and the only difference is the stroke to get the displacement? 

I have no idea.  I could have sworn I read something about dual carbs, but could be wrong.

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

This is supposed to be an Ambassador coupe.   I assume a 133 wheelbase?  It looks longer.

I have no idea, because.... I know the 33 brochure has at least one car missing in the 6 cylinder line up. I mentioned elsewhere that there is one documented surviving Big Six 2 dr conv sedan, and I saw the definitely original old body ID tag, to verify it was a genuine car.  So, how can we assume there never was a certain other model, if we only rely on old sales brochures?  

 

If a person was able to look at that coupe in person, then read the body tag, measure WB, and more inspection to look for signs if it was faked or not... who knows?

[John_Mereness]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:24 PM, auburnseeker said:

Remember the Auburn Auction last fall where this Auburn sold for 60G.  Of all places I would have thought Auburn would have yielded a higher sale price.

The people who go to the ACD Festival and are ACD Club members generally have other things on the their plate Labor Day Weekend than going to the auctions (matched to the auctions are sort of not know these days for bringing in the best ACD products).  My point is that if you have a really great ACD product then there are other auction times throughout the year (and other better ways to sell your car) - aka it is a strategy thing. 

[John_Mereness]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Thanks Frank.  Yes,  I knew that was the Lester car but should have been more clear.    I mentioned this in your thread, I'm sure, but Richard Blomquist was selling a 1090 club sedan with a rear spare 10 or 15 years ago that was SO COOL.  Seems to have disappeared.

 

 

Neat car !!!

[John_Mereness]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:24 PM, auburnseeker said:

Remember the Auburn Auction last fall where this Auburn sold for 60G.  Of all places I would have thought Auburn would have yielded a higher sale price.

Add'l Sidenote:  So we restored our 31 Phaeton in the early 1980's and if I recall correctly this car and the other black and silver one were all out on the show circuit the same year.   My point being, it was a very nice car when initially done, but possibly could have needed a significant pick-me-up.

[auburnseeker]

that would make it a good tour car now.  My car was refreshed in the 60's so it's a lot more seasoned now than this. 

[John_Mereness]

 

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

This Nash Advanced Eight Convertible Sedan:   A nice scratch and dent special and I doubt you could find a more solid unrestored/older restored one no matter how how you try - but most likely one of those cars that sells for a decent enough amount of money and yet as a result you then cannot cost effectively restore it (albeit if a second in marketplace can support the Guyton sale price you should safely have 200K to 250K + or - to work with).

 

Personally, I would have a maroon set of wheels on it asap (with new tires), find the few missing parts, and then do small tinkering projects cosmetically - with the bulk of my time and money being spent on it mechanically.  

 

And, that trunk on the trunk rack I know is painted same color and in same condition as rest of the car, but it needs removed as quickly as quick can be imagined.

[edinmass]

Cost effectively restoring it is out of the question, that said, after looking it over well, cost effectively making a driver out of it is still a big issue. Whatever the hammer price, your going to double it to have it go down the road correctly. Walter was a good friend, but he didn’t have a good mechanic and he didn’t put money into cars after he bought them. Just the minimum of what it needed to drive around town.

[John_Mereness]

50 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Cost effectively restoring it is out of the question, that said, after looking it over well, cost effectively making a driver out of it is still a big issue. Whatever the hammer price, your going to double it to have it go down the road correctly. Walter was a good friend, but he didn’t have a good mechanic and he didn’t put money into cars after he bought them. Just the minimum of what it needed to drive around town.

I will remove my diplomacy: 

 

YES, THAT IS EXACTLY THE ISSUE - like everyone though thought it was a puppy and it turned out to be a wolf with rabies - when I say "with the bulk of my time and money being spent on it mechanically" - it is ripe for an entire going through and I perhaps will not go 100 feet at a time without issue - maybe not even 20 feet at a time (and it stands a strong chance of being one issue after the next after the next) - given the car and its prior ownership (as nice interesting a person as he was and I enjoyed every conversation with him) it is probably ripe as ripe comes to eating someone out of every penny they have in their piggy bank (and then wiping through the checking account, the savings account, and the retirement accounts too).  And, the cost of doing anything on cosmetically it is just too much money as it will go for decent/serious money and every single part on it falls under that category of scratch and dent special (ie. while nice enough, every part has a flaw to it and nothing done to date on the car is really exceptionally well done).   And then there is a parts unobtainium issue (plus, hordes of die cast that are failing).  

 

I hate to say it, but just one of those "awkward" priced and condition cars. 

 

And when I mention the Guyton car, I failed to mention that it probably had 100K of loss upon sale on it when you factor in the restoration cost matched to initial purchase price.

[edinmass]

The Guyton car was probably 500k all in, and that was back ten or fifteen years ago. It ended up in a friends garage who is low key, and I don’t expect it will get out much. The other thing no one mentioned is the Nash cars snap axles like there is no tomorrow, and no one is making them. I actually know where there are three of them, two short and one long. The guy who has them doesn’t want money.......he wants parts to trade.........and he’s been waiting fifteen years for what he needs and still nothing.

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The Guyton car was probably 500k all in, and that was back ten or fifteen years ago.

I knew it was a high dollar exceptional restoration when done (I had all in pegged at low 400's, but really did not know for sure) and that was why car did so well at sale, but sounds like I was short on the loss (so they lost 150K to 175K on what otherwise looked like a health sale - though the flip side of the coin is that I guess it does not matter too much when someone has passed on and will not be crying about sales price).

[John_Mereness]

Sidenote: The problem with 1930's (and other era too) Convertibles - The best restored Convertibles tend to lean toward the side of the owner taking a loss on the sale and the unrestored and older restored Convertibles tend to go for decent enough money that there allows for little to no wiggle room to improve the product without then taking a loss on sale either - aka my comment of "I hate to say it, but just one of those "awkward" priced and condition cars."