Rod L Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1928 Buick (6) Engine stalls and then dies. This has happened 3 times and always following about a 15 minute drive. At about the 12-15 minute mark it will sputter at which point I will pull the choke and it will continue running for a few more seconds then die. After sitting for about 15-20 minutes, it will start right up and is good for another 15 or so minutes. Sounds like maybe something to do with the float? I pretty new to Buicks of this age and not familiar with the Marvel carb at all. Another issue I’ve seen is it runs very rich. Rod 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 Overheating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod L Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 Not that I noticed, but something for me to look for next time. I doubt that it is lean as there is considerable soot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyfamily Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Wow that is what spectacular looking whip!!!!! Love love love the color!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Nice car. If it's running very rich but doesn't stall right away it could be the vacuum tank on the firewall. You don't say how familiar you are with them but the vacuum line from the engine sucks gas into the vacuum tank until it reaches certain level where the float in the tank shuts itself off and the gas drains by gravity into the carb. If this isn't working right gas get sucked into the vacuum line going to the intake manifold causing black smoke and sputtering. In your driveway disconnect the line at the manifold plug the fitting. it will run a short while off the gas in the vacuum tank . Take pictures of your vacuum tank and post them here. I don't know any vacuum tank user that this hasn't happened to. Once you get it right it works fine. I don't think it's the carb float cause it would happen sooner. Gas isn't pouring out of the carb, is it? Make sure that there isn't an electric fuel pump hidden somewhere under the car. If your vacuum tank is hooked up this probably isn't so . Get yourself a Dykes repair book off eBay. It's a thick blue covered book. Get one at least a year later than your car. They made one every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Rod, It sounds to me as if it is either your vacuum tank operation is not working properly, or more likely clogging of the screen on the fuel pick up line in the gas tank. The gas tank may not be clean as well. It may be that things work fine at idle. As fuel use increases with speed, then the fuel is starving getting to the vacuum tank . Then the vacuum tank runs dry. Then fuel usage is low again as the tank refills as you idle by the side of the road. You should look into how clean your gas tank is and consider pulling the tank filter to inspect it. There is also a drain plug on the gas tank and on the vacuum tank. If you can get them out, replace them with brass ones. There is a 3rd plug on the top of the vacuum tank. Next time your car stops, bring a quart jar. If you remove the vacuum tank drain plug, you should have about a quart of fuel in the tank if all is working properly. Bring a tiny funnel and some fresh gas to refill the vacuum tank. What you drain out may not be clean. If this were my car, I would go thru everything fuel related and ensure there is no trash anywhere and that all of it is in working order. Posting some fuel stuff for you to look at. If you don't want problems on the road, it is best to go thru all the components and ensure everything is sorted out rather than wait for the trouble to start. This is a procedure to walk you thru the process to rebuild the carburetor. https://forums.aaca.org/topic/322950-1927-buick-carb-removal/ This is what the fuel pick up screen looks like , below that is a vacuum tank rebuilding procedure. Hugh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 1. Runs fine for 15 minutes, can't be the vacuum tank. 2. Sits 15 minutes and then runs fine again. How would a vacuum tank do that? The car is overheating, dude. Pistons expand and seize in the cylinders, engine stops. Cools and starts again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, Morgan Wright said: 1. Runs fine for 15 minutes, can't be the vacuum tank. 2. Sits 15 minutes and then runs fine again. How would a vacuum tank do that? The car is overheating, dude. Pistons expand and seize in the cylinders, engine stops. Cools and starts again. Seized pistons don't sputter and die. They STOP. Violently. However, that doesn't mean that Morgan is wrong and this isn't heat related. I would also check your carburetor float level to be sure there's sufficient fuel in the carb. It's always possible that the fuel is boiling in the line between the vacuum tank and the carb (this is where engine temperature would be a significant factor), but there should be enough fuel in the vacuum tank that it would be impossible to boil at ambient temperatures, even underhood temps. If it's boiling, it's boiling in the carb. Black soot indicates a fuel delivery issue. When fuel boils in my 1929 Cadillac's carburetor, which it has done on 100+ degree days, the car sputters and blows black smoke and dies. Fuel should be moving through the vacuum tank without restrictions, which can lower the fuel's boiling point even more. I agree with the others who suggest that you clean out your entire fuel system and make sure that your vacuum tank is working properly and is completely sealed. Also check the coil, condenser, and plugs. Remember that 90% of fuel problems are ignition. Coils fail when they get hot and can act exactly like this. When they cool off, they're fine. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 Mr. Wright could be on to something here. In 15 minutes worth of time the vacuum tank will more than likely 'cycle' more than once. In my humble opinion the fuel delivery system seems to be doing what it is supposed to do. It might be a good thing to have an IR Thermometer and take a look at the cylinder block in several places. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 I'm going to have to agree with Matt also about a possible ignition issue. Been There - Done That. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said: In 15 minutes worth of time the vacuum tank will more than likely 'cycle' more than once. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas With my glass bowl fuel filter I was able to watch the gas. It swirls around for 15 seconds as the vacuum tank fills, and it just sits there for about 2 minutes. This is at idle speed. If you are driving, the 15 second interval stays the same but the 2 minute part gets less. But if the car runs for 15 minutes at operating speed, the vacuum tank has cycled dozens of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod L Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 Lots of good suggestions above, but I forgot to mention that the car has a working electric fuel pump. I'm new to this car and am not real conversant with it's fuel system especially the modified fuel delivery. I have no idea at this point if the vacuum canister serves any function. Their is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and it is set at 1/2 psi. I will check to see if it is pumping gas to the canister or straight to the carb? Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Seized pistons don't sputter and die. They STOP. Violently. Expansion of steel is around 0.1% for 80 degrees C (144 F) according to this chart. If the cylinder is 3.375 inches, the circumference of each ring is 10.604, with a .010 inch gap that would be 10.594 inches circumference. If heat expands that by 0.1% you get 10.605 which is bigger than 10.604, and too big for the cylinder. When it overheats, the pistons would get tighter until the engine stops. .https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=WSCi%2bNUJ&id=9F32ACBA28237E04575C1F087E04C78A56DED579&thid=OIP.WSCi-NUJQfTGblffW1LWuQHaG-&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.engineeringtoolbox.com%2fdocs%2fdocuments%2f782%2fpipe-thermal-expansion-diagram-degC.png&exph=394&expw=418&q=expansion+of+steel+with+temperature&simid=607998134274820040&selectedIndex=3&ajaxhist=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) You're not wrong, Morgan, but the symptoms don't match your cause. If an engine gets hot enough to expand the pistons and/or rings sufficiently to seize them in the bores, it happens quickly. It's not like there's a lot of clearance in there to allow it to sneak up on you, it's fine and then it's not. And a car in which this happens doesn't start and run normally 15 minutes later. If his car is running hot, it's affecting fuel delivery or spark generation, not destroying its internals. This is what an engine looks like where thermal expansion has caused the pistons to expand and lock in the bore: So yes, I'll acknowledge that it CAN happen. Is it the problem here? I don't believe it is. You're talking a lot more heat and a lot more damage than he seems to be facing in his Buick. Edited May 25, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 I would like to go back and clarify something that I said in my earlier posting about this issue. Mr. Wright thinks that heat is the issue. I can agree with that and that is why I said what I did. Matt chimed in and related how heat can cause problems with the coil. I can also readily agree with that comment and that comment can somewhat give credibility to what Mr. Wright is thinking. I have a 1920 6-Cylinder Buick that up until a couple of years ago had its original ignition wiring still intact. The car got to the point that the engine ran terrible. I replaced the coil and plug wires and that engine runs beautifully now. As Ben P. stated, ignition issues can have a person going almost insane thinking that the carburetor is the culprit. I know all about that because I experienced it first hand. I can readily see where heat will play into how these old engines function. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 This car should not be run on an electric fuel pump. That said, I would bypass the entire fuel system safely, and provide a gravity feed fuel supply to the car while it’s stationary, and run the engine at 1/3 throttle for fifteen or twenty minutes. It will tell you if you have a fuel supply issue, overheating issue, or most likely an ignition issue. It should be very easy to diagnose. Do NOT guess. Diagnostic skills are what you need to apply, not conjecture or guesswork. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michealbernal Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 I had exactly the same problem with my 1928 standard. It would start fine and run a short time and them fuel would start running out of the air intake. After rebuilding the carburetor twice, the vacuum tank twice and sending the vacuum tank to a professional rebuilder, getting it back and reinstalling it the car still would not run correctly. At that point I did a vacuum test and noted a low vacuum reading. The engine had been rebuilt a long time ago but had only been run a very short amount of time. I checked the valve clearance and found it way off. I set it to factory specifications and now the car starts and runs perfectly. I am convinced the problem was both a faulty vacuum tank and incorrect valve adjustment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan40 Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) I would like to share my experience for I have had the same exact problem on my 29 Buick Standard. But the 29 does not have a vacuum tank, after a number phone calls, e-mails etc. these were the consensus of ideas/opinions and this is what I did: Installed an electric pump. Cleaned/dissembled/readjusted the carburetor Installed a new coil. Readjusted the valves. As you talk to more people you receive more ideas and become more knowledgeable, good luck Edited May 26, 2020 by Michigan40 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) Throw parts at it, rebuild the carburetor for the third time. Do the same thing someone else did on their semi similar car twenty years ago. It’s all ridiculous. Use a proper diagnostic routine, using a process of elimination, to determine what the problem is. It can only be three things. Yes, it’s that simple.It’s either mechanical related to the engine, fuel related to the ENTIRE system, or ignition related to the entire system. You need to figure out what the problem is, and then service the entire system, not try and spot fix what you think is the issue. Most often, cars have multiple issues. There are no short cuts, tune up in a can won’t make it run. Take your time. Fix it right. Fix everything you find that isn’t as good as new. “Good enough” is just an excuse to save money and time. Make the effort. Old cars are great.......but they do take time and money.......two things that everyone is short on today. Good luck. Edited May 26, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50jetback Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 Rod, A lot of good advice has been given. Don't overlook the possibility of a heat riser issue. A lot of reading but have a look at these previous discussions 1928 Buick - Buick - Pre War - Technical - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums ❚❚ Marvel carburetor - Buick - Pre War - Technical - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums Buick Heat Riser Repair - Buick - Pre War - Technical - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums 1925 Buick Standard Marvel Carburetor replacement - Buick - Pre War - Technical - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 On 5/25/2020 at 7:07 PM, Matt Harwood said: You're not wrong, Morgan, but the symptoms don't match your cause. If an engine gets hot enough to expand the pistons and/or rings sufficiently to seize them in the bores, it happens quickly. It's not like there's a lot of clearance in there to allow it to sneak up on you, it's fine and then it's not. And a car in which this happens doesn't start and run normally 15 minutes later. If his car is running hot, it's affecting fuel delivery or spark generation, not destroying its internals. This is what an engine looks like where thermal expansion has caused the pistons to expand and lock in the bore: So yes, I'll acknowledge that it CAN happen. Is it the problem here? I don't believe it is. You're talking a lot more heat and a lot more damage than he seems to be facing in his Buick. Pistons expand until the thickness of the film of oil between ring and cylinder drops to zero, at which point there is no lubrication, so the engine stalls. I do think, however, that for this to happen, the coolant in the radiator is mostly boiled away, and if he has this happen 3 or 4 times the radiator must be pretty much empty. Did you check the radiator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 Electric fuel pumps often push fuel past the float, flooding the engine, causing a much too rich mixture, washes oil down off the cylinders, increases the KV's load on the coil...............also, incorrectly installed electric fuel pumps can overheat, causing pressure and volume loss. I have made my living for twenty five years fixing things that others could not, or would not. You need a baseline to start with. After working on tens of thousands of cars......you get good at it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 (edited) Ed might not have any personality (or looks), but getting him to comment on a mechanical problem in a prewar car is GOLD. Also, using an electric pump on any car not designed for it is asking for trouble. You can mitigated the risk of burning your car up by having a return line or an on/off switch. The on/off should only be used to prime the system when the car has sat. The return line should send any unneeded fuel back to the fuel tank. Edited May 27, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 Ben .....send me a PM with your phone number and a good time to call.....I'll get you going in the right direction. Ed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod L Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 Sorry for the delayed response. I see there are many hopefully good suggestions above. I'll try and sort out the grain from the chaff. The engine is definitely not overheating, if anything it barely gets up to operating temp before the incident occurs. In the coming days I'll have some time to try a few things, 1st is I have a new coil and will swap it to see if that is the problem. I'm guessing that this will be a process of elimination to get to the bottom of it. I suspect that the previous owner lost interest in chasing it down, ergo the sale. there's always a reason for these sales, but then that is how I've managed to accumulate a number of cars, no harm no foul! I'll keep you informed as to what solves the issue. Thanks for all the input Rod 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod L Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 Apparently it was a bad coil! I changed to a known good coil, drove the car for about 30 minutes and all was well, no sputtering and it never died, 😁😁 engine temp via dash gauge was a steady 160 f. Thanks for all the input. Rod 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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