NTX5467 Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Is "Vice Grip Garage" and upgrade from Hot Rod's "Zip Tie Garage"? Good progress on the car, Bill and others! It should be marvelous when done. (Now, how about some of Old-Tank's compouond sway bars, front and rear, to make that Hill Country Driving more expeditious . . . . ) Enjoy! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 The slippery slope just got steeper. After much discussion and cussing between me and Rob (the man doing most of the work), we have decided to do a valve job. We say that and decided that because I have already been bit by a broken exhaust valve once and I don't want to do it again. It seems that the 60's Nailheads have a 2 piece exhaust valve that after 50 + years are starting to break. When they break, the destroy pistons and the aprons. Then the cylinder has to be sleeved. $5,000 later, you have a good running car again. I figure I will spend money up front to prevent this from happening to this engine. Below is the engine where the exhaust valve broke. It was a 1964 425 and I was just cruising down the freeway when it happened. I got off as quick as I could but still destroyed the engine. I remember taking the pan off and having a ziplock bag full of metal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 I still have my zip lock bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 Looks familiar Bernie.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 On 8/4/2020 at 9:46 AM, 60FlatTop said: Cost $12 to fix. That hardened wire is tough to weld. And the seat usually catches on fire...... 😲 and the weld breaks later.....😡 So your repair is safe and probably will be effective for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 26, 2020 Author Share Posted August 26, 2020 We took the heads off today and what did we find... 1. Mismatched pushrods 2. Serious ridges on the cylinders 3. No sign of a crosshatch on the cylinder walls. 4. Lifters worn out 5. A flat cam with pitting and chunks missing along the edges. 6. Serious junk in the water jacket. 7. A Easter egg we never could find last year (LOL) This is all we could see from the top. Our plans are now to finish pulling the engine (we only have to disconnect it from the bell housing) and see what the bearings look like. We are also going to check the bores for taper and size. Pictures of the cam lobes (they all look like this) and 3 of the cylinders. Notice the junk in the water jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 Look like the old girl is ready for a overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: Look like the old girl is ready for a overhaul. That appears to be a 60 year thing. I have had the heads off my '60 and checked things closely, haven't had the pan off, though. Changing and flushing fluids is important. Engine oil, coolant, brake fluid, rear end lube, transmission (if you aren't flushing one quart at a time). Even a close inspection of the crankshaft damper. I have kept up with the '60 but my '64 Riviera has only been lightly driven over the past 20 years. I did the front brakes over the last two weeks and heading for the rear now. I was inspecting all the "new" front end rubber yesterday. That was done in 1994. Still looks good. It's all proactive but things come up like the broken pistons. The Riviera is peeking out and might make it up through town for coffee by the end of the week. That would be a good day for a triple flush on the rearend with 30 miles between drains. Never ending story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 3 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: Look like the old girl is ready for a overhaul. Nah, new cam and lifters in addition to hone and rings. Probably only last 200K vs 300K if total rebuild. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 These cars a needy. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said: These cars a needy. As in needy a donation?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Thanks for the updates! Looks like it's full-rebuild time. Sure, you could "ring and bearing" it, or you can do the "full meal deal" and not have to worry about it in the future. Providing Mike and Old-Tank over-see it all . . . to ensure it's done right by a competent Buick engine rebuilder. How's the DynaFlow and rear axle? Wheel bearings and brakes? Shocks? Control arm bushings, front and rear? That "slope" can be a long one unless you grab hold of a branch along the way, somewhere? How's the a/c fitmet coming? Enjoy! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 27, 2020 Author Share Posted August 27, 2020 12 hours ago, old-tank said: As in needy a donation?? Mine sure could use one at the moment. Went to Austin yesterday to look and do some preliminary measurements and it is worse then we feared. Out of round and a significant taper to the cylinder. Going to look at the books and remeasure again today with a inside bore tool. It seems this engine has been into before as we found signs of Copper Anti Seize on the head bolts and elsewhere. So I am putting together a parts list assuming the worst. One issue I have is finiding a machine shop who has time before the end of the year. It seems everyone is doing motors this year. I talked to one guy who said he cant find anyone who wants to be a machinist anymore. Seems to kms a good way to make a living. AC this is where we started is coming along. The mockup of the inside unit is fit and we will use all the same ductwork as before. You cant tell looking at it. On the firewall Rob is building covers for the places that it sticks through. It will be much cleaner when all is done. We spent some time figuring out on how to use the original controls to operate the system. Buick had 6 controls on heat (fan speed, temperature,defrost and rear heat) and AC (fan speed and temperature). This unit has 3 (temperature, defrost, and fan speed). We will reuse the rear heat as it control ductwork we are using. The AC controls will be non functional as the new unit controls both AC/Heat and the fan speed. Thank goodness this is all electrical controlled as opposed to the leaky vacuum. On the way home I met up with the guy and dropped the heads off for him to start the work. I am going to sit down this morning and figure out how much this is going to cost (gulp) and where I can get it done even if its not in Austin or San Antonio. Mike had his done in Llano and they are on my call list. More as the engine comes out and we can look at the bottom end too. I have a feeling I will be spending more time in Austin this week. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 16 hours ago, old-tank said: As in needy a donation?? As in needy everything from the tires on up! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 18 hours ago, old-tank said: Nah, new cam and lifters in addition to hone and rings. Probably only last 200K vs 300K if total rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 30, 2020 Author Share Posted August 30, 2020 Got new from the gentleman doing the heads, it seems I have a couple of receding exhaust valves. Not bad but noticeable. Had some discussions and dug through my spares and took him another set of heads that may or may not be better. I will find out after he magnafluxes them. Other then that, its too damn hot (103 +) to be in the garage even with AC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) So, the engine is out and apart. This is supposedly a 50,000 mile engine but the engine looks like a 150,000 engine. Cam is wiped along with the lifters, bearings are down to the copper, cylinder walls and pistons are scratched etc. Good news is, someone has rebuilt the Dynaflow earlier in its life. Pictures as soon as I get them back from the Drug Store. 🙂 Edited August 31, 2020 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 That stinks. But at least you'll know what you have when it's all said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Pictures for your enjoyment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 And more, I love the 1 day photo stores that put film onto CDs for you. Look at the sludge in the pan. Andmy ring gear is all chewed up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 To your knowledge this block was rebuilt somewhere along the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 It has been worked on but I don’t know if it has been rebuilt. Pistons are original, cam is questionable. It doesn’t look like a 50 K engine though. It also looks like the Dynaflow has been worked on too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 She certainly looks like there is more than 50k on the block. Looking forward to the rebuild posts and first fire up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 There are a lot of cars out there in similar condition, more than people want to admit. They get sold on cosmetics. They keep going through the process here. Then there are the ones that were only allowed one trip to the well after purchase. Those are in the garage with boxes of Christmas ornaments on the hood and roof. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 I doubt that the timing cover gasket is original. At first I thought that it is a high mileage car or one that had short trips, cheap oil, and/or poor maintenance...probably high mileage. So now you have a 60 year old car with high mileage. You should sell it to me (after you fix it up ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, old-tank said: I doubt that the timing cover gasket is original. At first I thought that it is a high mileage car or one that had short trips, cheap oil, and/or poor maintenance...probably high mileage. So now you have a 60 year old car with high mileage. You should sell it to me (after you fix it up ). A trade may be in order. You have a red car I like..... The timing cover gasket is mine. I replaced the timing chain and water pump before Allentown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 3, 2020 Author Share Posted September 3, 2020 Today we took the short block to the machine shop. This guy does all kinds of engines. He had a Chevy 409 in the hone, a Dodge Cummings Diesel waitlists g to get washed and monster Cat engine sitting next to a 1952 MG TD that was being put together. We will see how long this process takes.l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Hurry up and wait. Did you say, "take your time"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 3, 2020 Author Share Posted September 3, 2020 2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: Hurry up and wait. Did you say, "take your time"? No. As a matter of fact I chose these folks because they don’t have 3 to 4 month line to get worked on. He said I “should” have it by the end of the month. What month is the question 😂 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Guess that engine was wanting some attention as it sat there, all alone in the chassis, while the a/c stuff was being done? Now it's getting the kind attention it has desired for a while. Ought to merrily hum along when its back to normal! NOW, the next question will be "What oil to use in it to protect the cam/valve listers?" Another thread? Thanks for the updates and pictures, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 On 9/3/2020 at 7:57 AM, NTX5467 said: NOW, the next question will be "What oil to use in it to protect the cam/valve listers?" Another thread? GAAAAK! Please, no more oil threads! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, old-tank said: GAAAAK! Please, no more oil threads! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 JR, One of my favorite TV quasi-villains. Willis, no idea yet, maybe Brad Penn or the Valvoline. Of course I could continue running the Castrol 20w 50 that I always have ran along with a zinc additive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 I went to Austin on Saturday to work on the ar. Didn't get a whole lot done but had a good visit and some good Vietnamese food. I also got to replace a set of tires. Went to lunch and noticed a big crack on my 8,000 mile tires. Went to the store where I bought them and they had issues with the lot of tires I had. So I got 4 more of a different brand. The new tires are quieter as I noticed on the way home. While we were going to lunch Rob noticed that the AC was not as cold as it should be. So we put more 134 in it and got it much more chilly. My wife is going to love that 🙂 Did pull apart one rocker are assembly and its time to replace them. Shaft is scored and the pads on the rockers went anyway from paper thin to much thicker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 Parts came today. Motor mounts, ring gear and all internal engine parts except pistons, rings and bearings as I don’t know the size yet. still have more coming $$$$. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share Posted September 13, 2020 I have been chasing a set of heads that will be rebuildable. Found some in my stash has cracks, some already had been worked on and ruined by putting seats in them and the originals were so far receded they may not be usable. I had bought a engine that was frozen so we took the heads off and they may be usable. We will find out this next week. In the meantime more cleaning and parts collection still is happening. Going to see the engine rebuilder this week with some of the parts I have collected. This also means I get to eat good Texas Bar B Que as they have one of my favorites in Llano. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Bill Stoneberg said: Found some in my stash has cracks, some already had been worked on and ruined by putting seats in them ... Hi @Bill Stoneberg, Would you explain why putting seats in a head ruins it, assuming the job was done properly by a qualified shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) In general, putting "hard seats" in cylinder heads is not a real issue, BUT in a NailHead Buick, the machine work gets touchy due to the location of the water jacket relative to the valve seat area. As in "very close", close enough that a bit of miscalculation in the depth of the machinework can "strike water". Consider, too, that the new seats are "interference fit", which can put more stress on an already thin area of cast iron in each combustion chamber. AND that's if there was no "core shift" when the particular head was cast! Some model years/engine sizes might be more critical in this reapsect that others? Just some thoughts, NTX5467 Edited September 13, 2020 by NTX5467 proof'd spelling (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 4 hours ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said: Hi @Bill Stoneberg, Would you explain why putting seats in a head ruins it, assuming the job was done properly by a qualified shop. There is enough nickel content in the heads seats are not required. And as NTX explained. My head's had seats installed. A few failed. Heads were junk as a result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) NTX and AVG explained it. I have had heads fail for exactly the reasons listed above. Not all machinists are equal. Its not all heads I was talking about, just the heads on a Nailhead. Yours may be different on your Roadmaster. Edited September 13, 2020 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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