Hearse Posted August 9, 2019 Author Share Posted August 9, 2019 I got the holding tool from Summit and it worked great ! thank you for the heads up on that. Looks like it has the original timing chain set in there, with at least 1 inch of slop on the one side of the chain. Maybe I'm tired I just came in from the garage , but I can't see any visible timing marks on these gears. What is the best way to remove a broken bolt from the T stat water tube piece that sits on the timing cover I had one bolt that broke off on that water manifold piece. 3 am riv work gotta love it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Good work getting to this point -- 2 observations: (1) Nylon-toothed cam gear, so definitely worth the effort to get rid of that! (2) I'm not a nailhead expert, but I see the "o" on the crank sprocket which is just to the right of 12 o'clock. The corresponding cam gear mark looks to be the raised 'pointer' cast into the aluminum at about 12 o'clock. If so, it looks like one more crankshaft revolution should bring them into alignment and have the distributor rotor pointing to #1 on the cap. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1963 Riv Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Hi, I am new to this thread, and recently obtained a 63' Riviera with 401 Nailhead and i need to find a timing chain cover and having difficulty locating. And suggestions would be appreciated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, 1963 Riv said: Hi, I am new to this thread, and recently obtained a 63' Riviera with 401 Nailhead and i need to find a timing chain cover and having difficulty locating. And suggestions would be appreciated. Contact Tom Telesco on this forum. Goes by Telriv. He has a shop in CT and speializes in Buucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 CARS Buick Parts sells brand new ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 9, 2019 Author Share Posted August 9, 2019 5 hours ago, EmTee said: Good work getting to this point -- 2 observations: (1) Nylon-toothed cam gear, so definitely worth the effort to get rid of that! (2) I'm not a nailhead expert, but I see the "o" on the crank sprocket which is just to the right of 12 o'clock. The corresponding cam gear mark looks to be the raised 'pointer' cast into the aluminum at about 12 o'clock. If so, it looks like one more crankshaft revolution should bring them into alignment and have the distributor rotor pointing to #1 on the cap. Ahhhhh ok, I missed that one on the crank gear altogether! thank you sir. Let me line these up and see how it looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1963 Riv Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Thanks for recommendations, will let you know how it turns out. Bought two from manufacturer out west that were bad castings and leaked through the casting under pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 5 hours ago, 1963 Riv said: Thanks for recommendations, will let you know how it turns out. Bought two from manufacturer out west that were bad castings and leaked through the casting under pressure. What manufacturer was that? Did you get a refund? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 Well I am cleaning up the front part of the engine, I have one bolt which broke off in the head for the T stat housing, should I weld this nut to it and try to back it out? or just grind it flat and try to drill it out with an ez out? what would you all suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 I'd try the nut, but leave room to get penetrating oil into the threads. Alternate head and penetrating oil while working the nut counterclockwise & clockwise until you get some movement. Lather, rinse & repeat... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 An aside to the problem. My belief is that the bolt was TOO LONG to begin with & has bottomed out. In this area is not prone to galvanic corrosion because the steel bolt & cast iron will not usually corrode. After the nut is welded on the broken bolt will transfer heat into the head. At this point try rocking the nut back & forth with an open end wrench. IF you can get it to move even very little hit with penetrate while still warm so hopefully some of it will wick into the threads & try again. It may have to heated & cooled/sprayed a few times, but eventually will soak into the threads to make the removal process a success. This is a much better way for a novice to try than trying to drill & tap in my experience. GOOD LUCK!!!! Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 7 hours ago, telriv said: My belief is that the bolt was TOO LONG to begin with & has bottomed out. I ran into the same issue when I changed the thermostat in my Riviera. It was weeping coolant and someone previous just kept tightening the bolt beyond when it bottomed-out. It snapped almost immediately when I tried removing it. Fortunately, as with yours, there was enough exposed to allow me to get a bite with vicegrips. I sprayed penetrating oil and worked it back and forth until I was able to get it to back out of the hole -- whew! When I checked the bolt length and depth of the hole it was too long . I replaced it with one 1/8" shorter and no leak... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) On 7/26/2019 at 4:38 AM, Hearse said: The guy at Centerville Auto told me to turn the balancer to check for timing chain slop, I thought I had none but it turns out I can turn the crank a good 1.5 inches forward or back before the distributor rotor moves. I'm guessing it's the original plastic gear chain set. It could be an inch to an inch and a quarter of play before the distributor rotor moves but I know its too much . Soo...lol , any tips or tricks for doing this nailhead chain set? I've done hundreds of chains sets just never on a nailhead engine. I'm excited now that I know this may contribute to the weird things that have been happening lately. Any chain recommendations ? I'm not going to race this and neither is my dad. Just cruise it with the occasional throttle mash. Thank you for your thoughts once again . So, I'm repainting my front pulleys and decided to check for chain slack as you did. I re-installed two balancer/pulley bolts and with a long bar between them I couldn't rotate the balancer at all. But my guns are of small caliber - so maybe I'm doing something wrong? Edited October 3, 2019 by PWB (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Try a longer pry bar. Having the transmission in Park make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 12 hours ago, RivNut said: Try a longer pry bar. Having the transmission in Park make a difference? Yes sir, had the ol' gal in neutral. This balancer is tighter than a dead cats' a**. Hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Must be that 10.25:1 compression ratio is now closer to 10.5:1. You need to get out on the Interstate and "blow the slugs out" as my grandfather used to say! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967 - 1997 Riviera Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I don’t own a nailhead Buick. Since that engine design was last made in 1966, I’d like to ask a novice question. Just where is a new timing chain sourced from these days? A few years ago, we bought square drive chain for our scheduled machinery overhaul from a vendor who sourced the chain from China (which we were not aware of.) In a very short time after installation, we were experiencing drive failures and jams because the chain had stretched like salt water taffy. We took the links to a lab and found that, while they were the correct steel analysis we specified, they were not heat treated. Just formed and left in the fully annealed condition. Testing of our spares in inventory was the same. Evidently, China does not heat treat much of what they make. After that, we added a hardness specification and yield & tensile test results documentation to our specs. Then we had no more problems. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 A few diff. places. I have them i stock. GOOD USA made parts. Let me know. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) Thought you guys might get a kick out of this: I pulled off my fuel pump to finish its half way painted self from the factory. Two easy bolts. Time to update the original fuel hoses also. Then found out I could see just about all of my timing chain with a borescope. Heck I could even pull on the chain with my finger to not find any slop. I'm assuming its original and it sure goes to prove the years alone don't cause these plastic models to crack up. Edited November 25, 2019 by PWB (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 I was able to do likewise (except checking chain tension) by removing the distributor (only one bolt!). My cam gear also looked good (no visible cracks). I do plan to change it soon, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGerman Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Now, 4 years later, the summit balancer holding Tool cost 2,5 times the price. Still a good Investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 In one respect, the later best-use of those nice-looking plastic-toothed sprockets would be to put them on a wall, in a nice frame, under glass, with an engraved plate on the frame, "This one is special. It did well! It got changed before it fractured during use. (Miles and date)". Maybe include the other parts of the set, to keep them all together. Reward their life with an easy future under glass. Just some thoughts, NTX5467 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted December 29, 2023 Share Posted December 29, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, NTX5467 said: nice frame, under glass, with an engraved plate on the frame Darn, I took pictures of mine and then threw it out along with the chain and crankshaft sprocket this past summer after cleaning up the mess of what I determined to be a major job. All that work and no operational change. Just no more ticking time bomb with that nylon sprocket gone. Edited December 29, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGerman Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) Die Had a new Roller chain installed and still it has a Little bit slack ( much less than the original worn chain) I read a post and someone wrote, it was hard to get the cam sprocket alligned with the new Roller chain on it, because it is so thight. No such problems here. What could be the reason for such differences , just manufacturing tolerances ? Edited January 3 by OldGerman Typos (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 A metal roller chain should NOT be as "tight" as a cogged belt (i.e., Jessel timing belt conversion or any other modern timing belt). The instructions for the Jessel timing belt conversion kit advise the installer to check piston-to-valve clearance closely when installing their kits. Possibly more critical in HP motors than stock motors? Reason? ALL of the "play" in the normal timing chain is removed by their product, for "exact" valve timing when compared to a timing chain set-up. Not sure where their comments are originating from. I would suspect the dimension between the crankshaft and camshaft centerlines would be highly-controlled during the manufacturing and machining processes. That would be the only places where variation could exist. With the chain manufacturers knowing this and knowing the respective specifications, only production variations between brands and/or batches of products would be the basic variations. Possibly the "old wives" have been talking again? Take care, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 COULD also be someone in the past has done an align bore/hone , which is a no-no on a "Nail", during the course of a re-build. TomT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 In my opinion it is better to have a slightly loose timing chain than one that is real tight .About 1/8 lateral movement using two fingers. Reasons being, once broken in it will loosen up, a tight timing chain robs horsepower and finally lessens the load on the already overstressed cam bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) On 1/1/2024 at 6:41 AM, OldGerman said: Others stated it was hard to get the new Roller chain on, because it is so thight. Frank, Question: Installed chain tight or crankshaft sprocket tight? My situation was the latter. If you have the 9-Keyway Roller Timing Chain SET, the components are manufactured by SA Gear with the crankshaft sprocket having 1-Keyway. It then has 8 extra keyways broached into the crankshaft gear and made into a 3-component "ROLLER SET". Crankshaft Sprocket P/N for an OE "Morse" Chain is #S276. For the "Roller" it is #S276R. For the "9-Keyway Roller" it is #S276R9. Makes sense? I could not even start the crankshaft sprocket on the nose of my crankshaft without a heat-gun. Lots trial fitting with numerous hand files on the sprocket and still with that heat-gun. Then more filing when the woodruff key was the next obstacle. I was NOT happy! And yet, the old sprocket would slide ON and OFF no problem, huh? Others have commented on a tight chain. However during my numerous ON and OFF trial fitting I noticed a discrepancy in chain tension, radial runout! No, it was not my filing or heat-gun. That sprocket is on tight! Also, impossible to accurately measure the final ID of the crankshaft sprocket. It has to be measured BEFORE broaching 8 additional key slots! My crankshaft snout however, measured at an OD of 1.438" I recommend barring over your crankshaft and checking for uniform chain tension in increments before buttoning everything up. A sprocket runout measurement next to the teeth is not a bad idea either. Make sure the Camshaft snout protrudes at least .040" beyond the new Non-Nylon camshaft sprocket to kinda grab the Fuel Pump eccentric. Do not pound the camshaft rearward when installing the camshaft sprocket. Inspect that thick washer before torquing on that bolt. Just before installing the timing cover for the last time, take a picture of timing chain alignment at #1 TDC in case you need to do trouble-shooting on start-up. FYI, what I've learned is that a loose Morse Chain is not necessarily worn-out, they are "Stretched". This occurs fairly early in the life of that type of chain. Roller chains do not stretch as quickly. Over 2 days trial fitting to make that crankshaft sprocket advance a little more until it finally reached home position. Until then, had to use a puller on the cooled-off sprocket to do more filing! Edited January 2 by XframeFX (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) While fitting that crankshaft sprocket (2nd image above), it had a death-grip when it cooled to crankshaft temperature. It had to come off repeatedly for more massaging. No 3-Jaw puller handy. My 2-Jaw puller would cock off center under the strain and came awfully close to damaging crankshaft internal threads for that 1" bolt. Leaving that bolt in wouldn't work with the puller. Many hours spent on that Crankshaft Roller Sprocket #S276R9! Edited January 4 by XframeFX (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGerman Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 John, happy new year. No, I had no problem with the crankshaft sprocket beeing too thight. No sanding or grinding was required. I have a TA Performance Single roller timing Kit. A light tapping with a hammer on a pipe and the sproket moved into final position. To assemble the chain, I had to back up the sprocket a little bit and I used a puller with two arms ( but with the crankshaft bolt in Place). There was very low torque required on the puller screw, to move the sprocket. But yes, the chain is not very thight. I‘ve rotated the crankshaft by two revs, no change to the chain slack. But I guess it is ok as is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Frank i am curious as to how much slack you have. Can you please elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 @XframeX, if I'd been having those fitment issues, I might have re-considered the need for the multi-keyway'd set, personally. At least touching base with the seller for guidance on how to best proceed. Even to the point of exchanging it for a single keyway set. IF you had that much problem with a random set, others probably would too. Unless Buick did some one-year issues on the diameter of the crankshaft nose? I'm suspecting that "stretch" is really just normal pin-wear on the Morse chains. Combined with normal sliding wear as the sections slide over the sprockets as they do their thing. The roller chain, with rolling rather than sliding, would have less sprocket wear, I suspect. Now, why is it not advised to line hone a Buick Nail Head V-8? Just some thoughts, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Because it brings the crank/cam centerline closer & you will have a forever loose timing chain. AND, no one makes a chain or sprockets that will take up the extra slop/slack. Tom T. Edited January 4 by telriv (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 If we had small block Chevies, we could install one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 8 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said: Frank i am curious as to how much slack you have. Can you please elaborate? When finally installed, I had slack too. I'm no expert except it appeared reasonable. The proof of the pudding would be to watch the Distributor Rotor while rocking the crankshaft. In my case, there was no deadband. Good enuff for me knowing what I have for a crankshaft sprocket on there😠 Frank, Happy NY to you too! It appears your product was shipped with QC. A replacement to Germany would've been even more of a pain than sending to Canada! We all know there are two extremes between Nailhead V8s and SBC V8s. The latter will have forever support with a multitude of choices for everything from OE to wild aftermarket. I condemned my crankshaft sprocket when it wouldn't even start on the snout cold! After some research and phone calls, a replacement was not in the offing. Reality is that we have to work with what's left for Nailheads and converse gingerly with suppliers for continued support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 As accurate as a gear drive might be, they are really whinnney. More than I suspected. Louder than a cogged blower belt. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGerman Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 23 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said: Frank i am curious as to how much slack you have. Can you please elaborate? Puh, nice task. I will try to measure the angle I can wiggle the cam sprocket both directions with the crankshaft fixed in TDC position. Unfortunately, I don‘t have a degree wheel for accurate measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, OldGerman said: I don‘t have a degree wheel for accurate measurement. I incremented my tiny harmonic balancer and degree'd my original camshaft. A dry run but turned out being a final. Highly recommend doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 7 hours ago, OldGerman said: Puh, nice task. I will try to measure the angle I can wiggle the cam sprocket both directions with the crankshaft fixed in TDC position. Unfortunately, I don‘t have a degree wheel for accurate measurement. No sir! Sorry for the misunderstanding. No need to go through all the trouble for such an accurate measurement . I was referring to how much movement you got when you moved it side to side with your hand 4 hours ago, XframeFX said: I incremented my tiny harmonic balancer and degree'd my original camshaft. A dry run but turned out being a final. Highly recommend doing this. Very cool! Care to share some numbers? I would be most interested lobe seperation angle , intake open , intake close and whatever else you would like to share. I am in the process of degreeing the original camshaft to a 1973 455 i am working on for installation into a 1968 rivi gs. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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