Hearse Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 The guy at Centerville Auto told me to turn the balancer to check for timing chain slop, I thought I had none but it turns out I can turn the crank a good 1.5 inches forward or back before the distributor rotor moves. I'm guessing it's the original plastic gear chain set. It could be an inch to an inch and a quarter of play before the distributor rotor moves but I know its too much . Soo...lol , any tips or tricks for doing this nailhead chain set? I've done hundreds of chains sets just never on a nailhead engine. I'm excited now that I know this may contribute to the weird things that have been happening lately. Any chain recommendations ? I'm not going to race this and neither is my dad. Just cruise it with the occasional throttle mash. Thank you for your thoughts once again . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Thanks to the guy at Centerville who pretty much insisted that I look at the chain slop lmao, and my dumba$$ is telling the guy I don't have any and he is insisting I check. So thank you, and for the folks here who told me to check, thankfully before it jumped time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) The big thing on the nailhead timing chain job versus a Chevy is make note of the very very high necessary torque on the harmonic balancer bolt... I believe it is somewhere around 225-250 foot pounds. If you don't get that right the balancer will fly off in about 200 miles. Take a good hard look at the timing cover when you get it off......if the coolant wasn't maintained over the years they corrode horribly on the inside and often need to be replaced, When you have the crossover water pipe off the front of the engine, use Permatex "The Right Stuff" silicone sealant on it when reinstalling, not regular gaskets.......if you don't do this you will have a coolant leak. This also applies to the thermostat housing if you have it off. You want to just use a bead of "The Right Stuff" with no other gaskets and it will seal just fine. Also, be sure to replace the front timing cover crank seal while you have the cover off. When I did mine, the first timing chain set I bought, the chain installed with a lot of slop in it. I bought a different brand and the chain was very tight. The chain should have no slop in it when you install it, if it does try another source for the part. Edited July 26, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said: If you don't get that right the balancer will fly off in about 200 miles. Aaack! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Be careful. The front cover is aluminum and the bolts molding the water pump to the cover are iron. Probably some "bonding" of parts over the years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 The water pump in most cases doesn't need to be removed. IF you want to remove to just check for the corrosion (which you SHOULD do) start soaking the 1/4" bolts with 7/16ths. heads now with some kind of penetrate. Do this now & keep doing it until the time comes to do the chain & gears. Take a ball peen hammer & kinda hard tap the heads of the bolts. What this does is vibrate the bolts which tends to loosen them & let the penetrate wick it's way into the threads. In reality you should do it to ALL the cover bolts that go into water. IF the cover is too corroded (best to send pics) I have new ones. IF you need a more modern seal I have those in stock also. I can ALSO get new thermo housings or a Mopar one can be used by slightly elongating the bolt holes & those replacement Mopar ones are cast iron. IF there is much plastic teeth missing off the plastic cam gear it would be advisable to remove the oil pan & clean the plastic out of the oil pick-up screen. If you put an oil pressure gauge on it the pressure will usually be fine. The BIG concern is NOT pressure BUT VOLUME!!! This tends to starve the engine of the nec. lubricate it needs for oiling & for COOLING. Of course at the same time you can clean out any junk that has accumulated over the years. How many miles are on the car/engine???? It's not hard to drop the pan in a Riv. I can run you through it IF it becomes nec. REMEMBER the bolt needs to be tightened to at least 225-250 ft. pds. of torque!!!!! as mentioned. I also use RED Locktite on the threads. You DON"T want the balancer falling off. Causes much damage. IF your lucky only belts & maybe a pulley or two. OR depending could wind up costing a radiator, fan shroud, more pulleys, a new fan blade & maybe clutch, & a HOLE in the hood from the fan blade. This is just to make you more aware of things that you need to take precaution on. Tom T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Well I guess I should hit the front bolts on everything with some oil , is there a place to lock the flywheel or the balancer so I can torque it back to 220 ft pounds? thats quite a bit. This engine has 96k original miles on it, it runs pretty strong . Thank you Tom, Riv Nut, Seafoam .Is there a special puller to remove the balancer once I get the bolt off of it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) You can lock it at the flywheel with a special tool made for turning flywheels that you can buy at a tool store, or perhaps an assistant can put a wrench on the alternator pulley nut and hold a back up on it to keep the pulleys from turning. In my shop we use the flywheel tool and do the job on a lift with one guy holding a backup underneath the car with a back up tool. On this style of balancer once the bolt is removed you can pull the balancer off with your bare hands. Pontiac V-8s are made the same way.....this is why there has to be high torque on the balancer bolt. On the front crank seal, the original seal is a rope seal......I used a replacement neoprene seal on my timing cover that was designed to replace the rope seal. Also, on this design, the washer under the head of the balancer bolt must be there or the balancer will fly off. Any bolts that you remove from the aluminum timing cover need to have anti-seize compound on the threads when you go back with them. Edited July 26, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 I stuff clothesline in the #3 piston half way up the compression stroke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Along with what Tom T said about soaking and tapping bolts, I applied heat to the bolts a few times. If you do that make sure to keep some kind of fire extinguishing agent near you. Your car will run, start and idle much better once you change out the chains. good luck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) Check with your local jobbers (NAPA, O'Reillys, Advance Auto, Auto Zone, etc.) who rent/lend tools to see if they have a tool for holding the balancer while you attack the bolt. A couple of months ago I checked with O'Reilly's about a torque wrench i could borrow that would go to and beyond 220 ft. lbs. and they have one. I also asked about a balancer holder. That they that had also but it had no capacity attached to it and looked pretty small. Edited July 26, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedeDownUnderR63 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Don’t know if it help you but I did the timing chain last year and made a tool that worked for me. Beware it is a long story and I am not a mechanic... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 I saw that tool Swede, I think I can make something work or I'll stick something through the flywheel to lock it down somehow, I do have a torque wrench that goes beyond 300 ft pounds. This should be interesting lol. 220 foot pounds, great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Hearse, NOT WITH OIL but something like WD40, PBlaster or some other equivalent penetrating lube. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 I have some vintage Kryoil and some PB Blaster. I'm about to go out there and hit everything with it. I JB welded the corroded part of the AFB baseplate so I'm going to sand that down tonight as well. The new stainless heat shield is on its way from Centerville. Regarding that stainless plate though, so the gasket goes on the bottom towards the intake, the stainless plate then goes on top and no gasket between the stainless plate and the carburetor ? That's what the Centerville guy said but that seems off to me, why isn't there a gasket between carburetor and the stainless steel plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 I'm going to put a single row timing chain set on it, found a brand called Engine Pro or Engine Tech which has a Melling part number, and the gasket set from CARS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 12 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said: Along with what Tom T said about soaking and tapping bolts, I applied heat to the bolts a few times. If you do that make sure to keep some kind of fire extinguishing agent near you. Your car will run, start and idle much better once you change out the chains. good luck I'm guessing that would get rid of that strange idle it picked up recently and the miss like the timing is retarded. The play in the timing chain reminded me of the play in the steering wheel of this old 1969 Mack Cabover truck we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualQuadDave Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Engine Pro is China crap. It works, but get Melling parts if you can. I have a new SA Gear set I can sell if you need one. Be prepared to destroy the front cover if either of the 2 long top bolts break off when you start removing. Go slooooooowwwww when breaking the top cover bolts around the water pump loose, the operating oil will only sorta work. It's more luck, than anything else and being patient breaking everything loose. Do a new water pump, it's cheap, why not. Check your timing mark on the balancer while you have it off, also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 7 hours ago, Hearse said: I have some vintage Kryoil and some PB Blaster. I'm about to go out there and hit everything with it. I JB welded the corroded part of the AFB baseplate so I'm going to sand that down tonight as well. The new stainless heat shield is on its way from Centerville. Regarding that stainless plate though, so the gasket goes on the bottom towards the intake, the stainless plate then goes on top and no gasket between the stainless plate and the carburetor ? That's what the Centerville guy said but that seems off to me, why isn't there a gasket between carburetor and the stainless steel plate? The carb needs heat to be efficient when it's cold. The exhaust gasses provide this heat. The exhaust gasses also corode the aluminum base of the carb. The exhaust gasses will not corrode stainless steel. The steel plate needs to be in contact with the aluminum base to tranfer the heat. Another gasket between the steel plate and the base of the carb would act as an insulator rather than a conductor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 In reality the way we drive our old cars today that heat directly under the carb. is no longer needed nor is the heat riser valve so the use of a stainless plate is NOT nec. if you block the holes in the manifold under the carb. DON'T BLOCK the exhaust holes in the head (4) as the manifold needs to be heated to be able to "Flash" the cat pee we have today they call gasoline. IF you block the holes in the head the car will almost ALWAYS hesitate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Thanks for the info about not blocking the head's heat risers. I was planning to. I was figuring the way the intake is raised from the valley pan it should run cooler anyway. Here in the desert I have problems with gas boiling in the carb after a drive. I install one of those insulator packs between the carb and the intake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 I've had good luck with Gibb's oil for breaking bolts loose. Klutch has a small gear reduction tool that fits between a socket wrench and socket. I haven't tried mine out yet, but seems like a good idea. The 1/2" drive handles 330lbft torque, the 3/4 does up to 400 something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 42 minutes ago, jsgun said: Thanks for the info about not blocking the head's heat risers. I was planning to. I was figuring the way the intake is raised from the valley pan it should run cooler anyway. Here in the desert I have problems with gas boiling in the carb after a drive. I install one of those insulator packs between the carb and the intake. Re-read Tom's post as where to block and where not to block the heat. Block it at the base of the carb - where the U-shaped passage is cast into the intake, not in the heads. You still want heat in the intake, just not crossing under the carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 13 hours ago, DualQuadDave said: Engine Pro is China crap. It works, but get Melling parts if you can. I have a new SA Gear set I can sell if you need one. Be prepared to destroy the front cover if either of the 2 long top bolts break off when you start removing. Go slooooooowwwww when breaking the top cover bolts around the water pump loose, the operating oil will only sorta work. It's more luck, than anything else and being patient breaking everything loose. Do a new water pump, it's cheap, why not. Check your timing mark on the balancer while you have it off, also. I sent ya a PM Mr Dave . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 3 hours ago, RivNut said: Re-read Tom's post as where to block and where not to block the heat. Block it at the base of the carb - where the U-shaped passage is cast into the intake, not in the heads. You still want heat in the intake, just not crossing under the carb. I was considering getting the intake gasket plugs that block the crossover heat ports on the heads going into the manifold. The insulator stack under the carb will block that carb heater port. I've used a Mr Gasket insulator before, it worked well and is only 1/4" tall. On my mustang I used gaskets that blocked the crossover port to try to stop the fuel boiling issues, and it did cause cold weather driveability issues. It took a 1/2" phenolic insulator to stop the boiling. I don't have that much hood clearance on the buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 1, 2019 Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 Well, an update of sorts lol. So far as I am removing parts from the front of the engine, one bolt has broken off in the thermostat housing on the passenger side of the block, I've soaked everything in PB blaster for a few days , applied heat, tapped with a hammer to try and shake anything loose holding them in, still have to pull the drivers side power steering bolts out of the T stat housing and then work on the timing cover bolts. Hopefully no more bolts snap off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 Now we are up to the balancer and removing the bolt , does anyone have any good ideas on holding that stationary to break that bolt ? I know one guy here bought a tool of sorts from summit I read somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) Remove the starter motor and engage the ring gear on the flex plate with a LARGE flat blade pry bar. It's going to be a two person job. Edited August 2, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garysriv Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) Summit sells a $20 tool you mount the the balancer where the pulley bolts to. You basically bolt it on and turn the crank to where it hits the ground. Then tighten the crank bolt, remove the tool, attach the pulley. No friends needed. Edited August 2, 2019 by Garysriv (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 Ordering it tonight thank you sir!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Garysriv said: Summit sells a $20 tool you mount the the balancer where the pulley bolts to. You basically bolt it on and turn the crank to where it hits the ground. Then tighten the crank bolt, remove the tool, attach the pulley. No friends needed. Gary would you know what they are calling this tool at Summit ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Garysriv said: Summit sells a $20 tool you mount the the balancer where the pulley bolts to. You basically bolt it on and turn the crank to where it hits the ground. Then tighten the crank bolt, remove the tool, attach the pulley. No friends needed. Awesome I want one. I’d sometimes pay 20 bucks to send a friend off. Har har 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garysriv Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Part number SME-906007. $19.99. Clarify for usage. On the right side you can see openings for a 3/8 and 1/2 inch drive. Put a 1/2 inch breaker bar in the 1/2 inch hole and that's what hits the ground. Be sure to tighten this tool on the pulley good, I actually went and got 4 hardened bolts because of the amount of torque. Works though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 Thank you very much sir! ordering this up after dinner. 😃 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garysriv Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 13 minutes ago, Hearse said: Thank you very much sir! ordering this up after dinner. 😃 When the front of the car starts lifting up you're getting close! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 49 minutes ago, Garysriv said: When the front of the car starts lifting up you're getting close! Or when the passenger's side motor mount breaks loose. 🤔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 Great lol...Odd engine these nailhead's, this is my first time opening one up. Almost time to get back out in the garage and see if I can get that bolt to break free on the balancer, I ordered that part to hold it from Summit but I'm curious if I can get it to hold some way up front with a huge pipe wrench or something . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hearse said: Great lol...Odd engine these nailhead's, this is my first time opening one up. Almost time to get back out in the garage and see if I can get that bolt to break free on the balancer, I ordered that part to hold it from Summit but I'm curious if I can get it to hold some way up front with a huge pipe wrench or something . I don't think that you'll be able to grab any part of the three groove pulley and tension on the belts isn't going to be enough. When I removed mine, I got it off with a good sized impact wrench. I don't think that I could retighten it with the impact to the 220 lbs but I got it off. Can't hurt anything by trying. Edited August 3, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 Lol RivNut, maybe I'll just leave it alone until the tool gets here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Dont use a pipe wrench, wait for the proper tool to arrive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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