Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Good afternoon everyone I hope you are enjoying the weekend and driving your Riviera's . I'm at the Pertronix crossroads, I let our 64 sit for a month and when I came back to start it she had a stumble and bad idle but cleared up on the top end. So, I took the AFB off and put a quick kit in it, blew out all of the orifices , b12 cleaned it, and after the 3rd time I think I have the floats set correctly. Fast forward to the points, I looked at the brass set in the from standard ignition and the end is discolored, looks like it got hot, and they were not shiny at all looked not entirely burned but not great. So I put a new set of standard points in with a condenser and set the gap on the high lobe at .016 like the book calls for, dwell? lol , yeah I don't have a dwell meter all of my other cars have been converted to electronic ignition in some fashion or another. This Riviera is the only one I have with points, so, do I invest 30-40 bucks into a dwell/tach analyzer or spend 90 for a pertronix lobe sensor conversion kit. I'd love to hear the pro's and cons and if these units actually burn up in a year. Thank you all for your opinions I read them all , sometimes 20 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Oh yes I tested the output on the alternator with the car running and it's pretty steady at 14.5 ish so it doesn't appear to be overcharging and the voltage regulator seems to be functioning properly. This still has the original Delco Remy 12v coil on it from 1964. Still works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Well, a previous owner installed Pertronix in my '67. I've owned the car for about 3 years and so far, no issues. That said, I still have breaker points in my '64 GP (that I set to 30* dwell angle with my $20 meter) and have no issues to report there either. So, go ahead and flip that coin... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 I put a Pertronix system in my 64 in 2002. It's still there. OTOH, I have points in my 63 -- and no inclination to change them. They both start with a bump of the key, and they both run well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 I'm half tempted to go buy this dwell meter at the local parts house before they close and see how far off they are set. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 24 minutes ago, Hearse said: 'm half tempted to go buy this dwell meter at the local parts house I have two that came from local garage sales -- in this case, most people don't even know what it is that they are selling! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 If ya got points, ya gotta have a dwell meter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Well, grabbed a dwell meter tonight and set it at 30 , now I'm about to check the timing on her. Any ideas on that or should i stick with the book specs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 IF the distributor has not been re-curved set it at stock at 2 1/2* with the vacuum hose off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Ugh....the harbor freight xenon timing light doesn't work lol..Bought it brand new 3 months ago, used it 4 times...It seems to start better at 30 on the dwell it was at 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 ????? How many miles are on your engine. I had a Pertronix installed on my 64 but had trouble getting the timing set with a light so had to do the best we could by ear. A while later, I took the heads off to have them done and found the nylon teeth on the cam gear were nonexistent. A new set of gears and a new chain and it times perfectly at 2-1/2°. Love the Pertronix. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Well the odo shows 96k miles and everything appears to be original on the engine for the most part, it has never been taken apart before that I know for certain. Pretty sure it has the original timing chain set in there. Once I get another timing light most likely tomorrow, I'll see where it's set at and if it's jumping around all over the place, if so, I guess I'll replace the gear set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr914 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 it is amazing how many mechanics these days do not even know what a dwell meter is! I have had a pertronix in my 64 for over 15 years without a hitch. On the other hand, when installing them in air cooled engines, we have had a higher rate of failure do to the high temperatures in the engine compartment, so if someone opts to install pertronix onto an air cooled engine, we suggest that they always carry a set of points condenser AS WELL AS A DWELL METER!!!!!! (LOL) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 9 hours ago, Hearse said: Well the odo shows 96k miles and everything appears to be original on the engine for the most part, it has never been taken apart before that I know for certain. Pretty sure it has the original timing chain set in there. Once I get another timing light most likely tomorrow, I'll see where it's set at and if it's jumping around all over the place, if so, I guess I'll replace the gear set. Take the cap off of the distributor so you can see the rotor. Put a big bar on the crankshaft bolt. Rotate the engine with the bar and watch the rotor. If you can rotate the engine back and forth and there's a lag in the movement of the rotor, then the teeth on the cam gear are toast or you have a stretched timing chain or both. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 In reality you don't even need to remove the dist, cap you can do it by feel. As you rotate the crank with a socket on the crank bolt you will feel resistance. Turn the crank in the opposite direction until you feel resistance again. IF it moves more than a 1/4" it needs at least a chain. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 If in fact it does have the original chain and gears ,i would change them to get rid of the nylon gears. I will also venture to say that you will notice a big improvement on all aspects of performance if you do in fact have the original timing gear set. That was my experience with my 65. Good luck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualQuadDave Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) Do a Pertronix and their matching coil. DO BOTH! I have seen old coils cause a LOT of weird driveable problems that you would never guess. You can say whatever you want about points, but there is a reason they got phased out. FYI, I prefer the Pertronix 3, but all of them work good. PS: If you want the best ignition possible, send your dist out for a Dave's Small Body HEI conversion. All American parts, 50k volts+ and reliable. Can be fixed at any auto parts store if necessary. No dwell meter needed All the advice for the chain is good too. If it hasn't been done, just do it so no headaches later. Edited July 1, 2019 by DualQuadDave (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Well I guess a timing chain is on the list. I just want to get it running how she was running before I let her sit for a month. I'll start to source out a chain today. Dwell is set at 30. Im getting a new timing gun today to check timing then ill dial in the air fuel mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) FYI Hearse - It's called a "Timing Light" . not a timing gun, even though some of them are shaped like a gun. ! Like Ed said: Do the gears too, while your installing that new timing chain. Sitting for a month has little to do with how it runs, my'68 always has a yearly 6 - 9 month sleep during the winter months ! Edited July 2, 2019 by 68RIVGS (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Can't pull a signal from these 8mm yellow wires that are on it lol...This car hates me lmao...God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 hours ago, DualQuadDave said: Do a Pertronix and their matching coil. DO BOTH! I have seen old coils cause a LOT of weird driveable problems that you would never guess. You can say whatever you want about points, but there is a reason they got phased out. FYI, I prefer the Pertronix 3, but all of them work good. PS: If you want the best ignition possible, send your dist out for a Dave's Small Body HEI conversion. All American parts, 50k volts+ and reliable. Can be fixed at any auto parts store if necessary. No dwell meter needed All the advice for the chain is good too. If it hasn't been done, just do it so no headaches later. This is the route I am leaning towards, coil and lobe sensor Pertronix kit. I looked at Dave's HEI but I would rather just swap in the Pertronix and move on to something else the car needs like the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Finally got the timing light to fire, turns out whoever had the car before left the number one cylinder loose, and the timing is off according to what I just saw, sooo going to check the rest of the plugs and try to time her, the timing mark is extremely steady though, doesnt bounce at all. Very steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Jesus it wouldn't catch a signal because the guy who had the car before me had all the plugs semi loose...All plugs are tight, timed her at 2.5 on the timing mark and holding very steady. Now my question is about the dwell, it seems that now the dwell is off, at least on this old school meter I just picked up, I set it to ..030 yesterday on a digital meter and now it's reading differently but maybe I am reading this thing wrong? it only has a listing for 4/6 cylinder on the dwell side side , so to get a proper reading on the dwell should I be looking at the bottom side of the meter the 6 cylinder side? if so its not reading at .030 anymore.. This meter was made when I was a zygote, do you all have any ideas on this thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Ok this is what the Riviera is reading all warmed up , so can someone tell me what dwell I'm at on this particular meter? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly and it didn't come with any instructions. It just says 8 cyl= 1/2 x (4 cyl) What exactly does that mean . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Put the cylinder switch to 4/8, use the 4 cylinder dwell scale, and divide by 2. IOW, set the dwell at 60°. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hearse said: Ok this is what the Riviera is reading all warmed up , so can someone tell me what dwell I'm at on this particular meter? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly and it didn't come with any instructions. It just says 8 cyl= 1/2 x (4 cyl) What exactly does that mean . Use the 4 cylinder scale and divide by 2. Your dwell is currently set at 27½° (55/2). Adjust the points until it reads 60°. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Ahhhhhhh ok thank you so much!!! I'm stoked , Ok that is what I needed . I owe you a 12 pack if you come to Vegas or I can send you one shipping is on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, Hearse said: Ok this is what the Riviera is reading all warmed up , so can someone tell me what dwell I'm at on this particular meter? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly and it didn't come with any instructions. It just says 8 cyl= 1/2 x (4 cyl) What exactly does that mean . See, you should have listened in mathematic classes at school...:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Lol that wasn't the problem, I just wasn't sure if I should follow that scale up at the top I wasn't sure if that was relevant to me as far as dwell was concerned I thought that was for the rpm only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Sigh....I'm not sure exactly what's going on. Vacuum is at around 18 at idle ish. Dwell is set, timing is set at 2.5 . Adjusted the carb with a vacuum gauge . When you go to take off from a stop it feels like it did before, like it has a dead hole until it gets past 40 mph , top end runs well. Removed plug wires at spark plug to see if I had a dead hole on the passenger side and doesn't appear so. About to do the drivers side. And it also didnt want to shift from first to second now, and the fluid is fine , is this a timing or a vacuum issue per chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 am and the Riviera has me stumped , I've actually never had a classic that has fought me like this lol. No first to second shift, miss at idle , when you take off it feels like it has a dead hole . I don't understand how it would be fine when parked and 4 weeks later it's a total cluster f lol..My god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Hearse said: 2 am and the Riviera has me stumped , I've actually never had a classic that has fought me like this lol. No first to second shift, miss at idle , when you take off it feels like it has a dead hole . I don't understand how it would be fine when parked and 4 weeks later it's a total cluster f lol..My god. Hearse, It sounds like you have a large vacuum leak but 18 inches of vacuum at idle shouldnt produce the symptoms you are describing. Plug off the vacuum line to the trans modulator and see if your idle/off idle performance improves. If the diaphram in the vacuum modulator is leaking that will cause a vacuum leak/driveability issues for the engine and keep your trans from upshifting normally. BTW...I frequently have customers tell me "it was fine before this happened"...I`m always perplexed by that reasoning as everything is fine before it breaks, right? Similar to a phrase often heard..."wouldnt you know it was in the last place I looked !"...well, of course it was. Who would keep looking for something after they find it? Lol... Good luck! Tom Mooney Edited July 2, 2019 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 Yes sir, I am going to investigate that this afternoon thank you for the heads up. Last night was just not cooperating lol , I had to step away around 2 am. I love this Riviera so I'll do what it takes to get it running well again, it's supposed to go to my father here soon after the quarter panel is repaired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualQuadDave Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 If all checks out, get a handheld vacuum pump and check the vacuum modulator and vacuum advance on the distributor. Start the motor and isolate the brake booster. See if the driveable problem goes away. Remember, there is a lot of rubber diaphragms as old as the car waiting to fail. Also, is it an AC car? There are 3 diaphragms alone on the firewall for that and all will break/fail. To me, sounds like a vacuum problem without being there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hey Dave how are you ? I'm going to do what the other gentleman said and disconnect the vacuum modulator at the trans and plug it and see what happens, and then spray some carb clean around the afb and the fitting on the back for the brakes and such. If the brake booster was developing a leak I would hear that i think and the pedal would be firm right? Oh and no sir, it is not an AC car but it was ordered with the heavy duty AC package , Riv nut ran the codes on it and said it had a strange rare option with that? I think that's what he said. It has the AC components on the engine but no actual ac compressor mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 It's hot out west, 105 in the garage so I am going to check the vacuum modulator and the other related vacuum lines this afternoon. I'd love to have something as simple as the vc mod to be bad. Will post some results in a couple hours. Hope everyone is enjoying the day!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 On 7/2/2019 at 3:44 AM, 1965rivgs said: Hearse, It sounds like you have a large vacuum leak but 18 inches of vacuum at idle shouldnt produce the symptoms you are describing. Plug off the vacuum line to the trans modulator and see if your idle/off idle performance improves. If the diaphram in the vacuum modulator is leaking that will cause a vacuum leak/driveability issues for the engine and keep your trans from upshifting normally. BTW...I frequently have customers tell me "it was fine before this happened"...I`m always perplexed by that reasoning as everything is fine before it breaks, right? Similar to a phrase often heard..."wouldnt you know it was in the last place I looked !"...well, of course it was. Who would keep looking for something after they find it? Lol... Good luck! Tom Mooney Tom you are the man!!! Ok so I disconnected the vacuum line to the transmission, she starts up and idles pretty well now, I drove her around the block in low and it pulls hard now no more miss it seems no more crazy idle . I'm stoked!!! so a bad vacuum modulator in the transmission? I owe you a steak and a beer let me know where and I'll pick up the tab. Thank you to everyone else who chimed in, I'm going to take your advice and order the new timing chain set and after looking it looks like I'll need a water crossover thermostat part up front the previous owner has a bolt broken off on the T stat. Do you have any particular manufacturer you stick with when it comes to a vac mod? or will any one off the shelf suffice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 21 hours ago, DualQuadDave said: If all checks out, get a handheld vacuum pump and check the vacuum modulator and vacuum advance on the distributor. Start the motor and isolate the brake booster. See if the driveable problem goes away. Remember, there is a lot of rubber diaphragms as old as the car waiting to fail. Also, is it an AC car? There are 3 diaphragms alone on the firewall for that and all will break/fail. To me, sounds like a vacuum problem without being there. You are correct sir!! it's looking like the vacuum modulator is leaking on me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearse Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 I have to say I've been on my fair share of automotive forums over the years and I've owned over 200 cars of various makes and models in my semi young life and the Riviera folks and the vehicle itself have been really quality I'm finding. Everyone here is really friendly, supportive and extremely helpful I haven't really encountered this on any other car forum. It's refreshing and I thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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