'63 Riv front end "feel" when driving

[Bdad]

When driving the front end feels light and a bit touch. It takes active effort on my part to drive. Nothing pulls. It just feels really light. Maybe it's the power steering? Anyone seen this and is there a way to address it?

[60FlatTop]

It will feel that way compared to a modern, mid-'80's and up.

 

The small diameter steering wheel rim adds to the different feel as well as no automatic overdrive.

 

Part of the experience.

Bernie

[telriv]

WE CAN FIX THAT!!!!!!

[60FlatTop]

It ain't broken. If you want a new car just go out and buy one.

 

If you have one car that has an original design you wish to have improved it is far better to another car designed with the improvements you seek. AND DON'T TELL MY WIFE ANYTHING DIFFERENT!

[dr914]

On 3/20/2019 at 2:35 PM, Bdad said:

When driving the front end feels light and a bit touch. It takes active effort on my part to drive. Nothing pulls. It just feels really light. Maybe it's the power steering? Anyone seen this and is there a way to address it?

Yes the power steering is very light feeling, like previously stated just part of the experience.  You could make sure that you have radial tires inflated to the proper pounds and then make sure that the alignment is done to the radial tire specs that are different than the original alignment specs for the bias ply , that will make a difference for sure, and maybe install Toms quick ratio box, and Bilstein shocks and GS springs

Edited March 22, 2019 by dr914 (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

First and foremost, make sure all the steering and suspension components are up to snuff.  Worn ball joints, tie rod ends, center link, etc. can give you a floaty feeling.  Folks often mistaken the symptoms of worn parts for poor design.  These cars are well over 50 years old.  Even with regular maintenance, it's common to have some deterioration in performance if you're still using the original components.  Second, realize that this isn't a modern sports sedan, and it's not going to drive like one.  It's a high ratio, high assist system.  You aren't going to have the road feel that you might hope for.  Yes, you can install a quick-ratio steering box, and that will change things.  However, that's not a magic bullet; the ratio does not affect the responsiveness of the wheel or the effort needed to turn it.

 

Again, the first thing to do is a comprehensive evaluation of current system.  Don't forget the rear end; worn track bar bushings can affect handling.  That's a cheap and easy fix. If everything checks out and you're still not satisfied, there are non-invasive improvements you can make: stiffer springs, firmer shocks, a heavier sway bar, and an upgraded steering box come to mind. 

 

Finally, get used to it.  It is what it is.  

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, dr914 said:

 ....and Holstein shocks and GS springs

I think that Hereford or Guernsey might be better.  😎

 

Don't you just love auto-correct?

 

 

[RivNut]

"GS springs" is a misnomer.. The firmer ride package was the H2 Ride and Handling option.  The Gran Sport option did not include the H2 option, that was a separate option.  If you ordered the H2 option, you got the firmer rated springs as well as the quicker ratio steering box.  That option in 1965 cost an additional $10.45.  I would imagine that the H2 option could have been ordered on any full sized model in '65.  

[60FlatTop]

Find someone with a '62 Ford Galaxy or a Thunderbird and squeeze a test drive out of them. THEN drive your Riviera. You won't believe how good it will feel.

 

One problem I have seen is the younger owner in the "school bus driver" position, seat forward, back straight and high, with both handles on the wheel. They spend all kinds of time over correcting.

These cars are for driving with the seat rearward, semi-recliner position, with one hand on the wheel, and an elbow on the armrest. That makes them work to ride. Lean back, let the wheels track where the roads takes it, within limits, this is your private living room.

I read all the modification posts and imagine tires squealing from every stop and an arm sticking out the window waving a big cowboy hat. My cars are sp quiet you can hear me holler "Yahoo!" when I get into them. On biased tires. No hat.

 

[Turbinator]

Here is the answer from a guy ( that’s me) that only knows how to shine hubcaps.

Everything that was written by the other gents before me has 100 % substance and probably 100% correct.

The basics have to be checked out first: worn bushings in track bar - probably, worn rubber in the front sway bars - probably. Shocks all gone to ruin? Front end alignment for your type of tires? Next the steering box being rebuilt can only help a lot. I did all of the above and now my 63 Riviera has a great boulevard ride, feel, and steering. Before I did the work of replacing the parts the car had steering and ride feel like you were flying an airplane or driving a Forklift real fast.

ive had an experience just recently when an 18 wheeler was really too close to my rear bumper on I95 South. The traffic was heavy, but moving along at 70 mph ( my speedo is correct). I jumped on it and in no time I was up to 90 getting out of the way of the 18 wheeler.

B/4 I had the suspension corrected I would not have been able to go 70 mph and keep the car in the lane much less move up to 90.

As a referral for Tom Telesco’s Double T rebuilt steering box you cannot find a better value and quality  for your investment and support. 

Turbinator

[Bdad]

Mechanic checked the front end and said everything is in good shape and nothing of note. If I wanted to look into a faster ration box where might I go to read and what product/suppliers to consider? I'm not looking for equivalent to modern cars but a bit better might nice.

 

[RivNut]

Tom Telesco will supply you with the faster ratio box.  He's on the forum as TELRIV.  

Edited March 22, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, Bdad said:

If I wanted to look into a faster ration box where might I go to read and what product/suppliers to consider?

 

There are two main boxes that will fit the Riviera.  The 600 series box was originally used on smaller cars, but is interchangeable with the stock box.  The stock box on the Riviera is the larger 800.  Most of the available info on quick ratio boxes covers the small boxes (for jazzing up Chevelles, etc.), because that's where the interest lies.  Reliable, complete info on quick ratio 800 boxes is almost impossible to find, presumably because those boxes were found on the larger cars, they weren't widely available in quick ratios to begin with, and there aren't many folks trying to turn a land yacht into road machine.  In general: the factory ratio is 17.5:1.  A 15:1 box was available as a factory option, but they're very hard to find.  Cadillac used a 16-13:1 variable ratio box for years that is a drop-in replacement.  This is the box that most rebuilders recommend for the large cars; you can find one of them fairly easily.

 

If you're going to buy a box, make sure you know what you're getting.  First, make sure it's an 800 box and not the smaller 600.  Second, get the ratio (that is the defining characteristic of a quick ratio box, no?).  The ratio is a set number that is easy to calculate; we're not grading on a curve here.  Get the number and not a word (i.e. "quick" is an evasion, not an answer).  Third, ask about the valve and the stub shaft.  The thickness of the shaft (which is usually integrated into the valve assembly) defines the responsiveness, or how far you have to turn the wheel before the tires move.  Finally, make sure it's compatible with the stock rag joint and hoses.

Edited March 22, 2019 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[telriv]

The valve is 80mm like stock. The stub shaft is 13/16ths. like stock. The pitman arm is 1 1/4" like stock. The feel is like stock or I can make it a "Sport" feel. My boxes use the STOCK rag joint. My boxes are the "808" box that originally came on the big cars & is A BOLT-IN. NO special hoses, fittings, adapters or ANYTHING else required.

AND, at a much reduced cost than others available.

 

Tom T.

 

P.S. I do have a couple of the Riv. 15-1 boxes used.

[1965rivgs]

Hi Tom,

  Interested in your 15 to 1 boxes. Can you please send me a PM with details? or give me a call? Thanks,

Tom

[EmTee]

14 hours ago, Bdad said:

Mechanic checked the front end and said everything is in good shape and nothing of note.

 

What about alignment -- was that checked?  Adding positive caster has been reported on this forum as helping to keep the car on-track.

[dr914]

20 hours ago, RivNut said:

I think that Hereford or Guernsey might be better.  😎

 

Don't you just love auto-correct?

 

 

Damn. I type it three times and it still auto corrects!!!!

[Seafoam65]

It's funny, the thing I like most about the 65 Riviera is the power steering that you can steer with your

pinkie finger it is so easy to turn the steering wheel. I learned to drive in my Dad's 65 Chevy half ton pickup

that had manual steering and it was like wrestling an alligator to turn the steering wheel. After I had been practicing with the truck for a few months,

he let me drive the 65 Riviera and I couldn't believe how wonderful the steering felt. I've been in love with the steering on these cars ever since.

Even my power steering equipped 69 GTO doesn't steer near as easy as the Riviera even though the Riviera has much more weight on the front wheels.

The light steering is the absolute favorite thing I like about these cars.

[KongaMan]

That light steering also allows you to drive with your leg while opening a beer.

[60FlatTop]

When I serviced other people's collector cars, Buicks and Cadillacs, I saw a lot of pitman arm power steering leaks, many recently changed. I wouldn't put seals in them. I would put in a newly rebuilt box. Just the dirt at the seal lip would wear a ridge in the sector shaft. The new box assured no return on the leak repair, but most owners recognized improved steering.

It is hard for a modern mechanic to conceive what is going on with our cars beyond wiggling things and imagining how tight they should feel.

I have taken steering boxes apart, both worm and sector and recirculating ball types, and found tiny pits in the worm surface. This is an indication that wear has gone beyond the thickness of the surface hardening. And it will wear faster after that point. Needs box. On a first generation Riviera it is really hard to inspect the condition of the lower inner control arm bushings just to see if they are still concentric. A guy who has been doing McPherson struts for the last 20 years won't catch it. And the alignment guys will send you out with most of their stock of shims bristling from your upper A-frame. It is like taking a "foreign" car in for service in 1964, strange stuff to them.

 

I like driving my cars the way Tommy plays the pinball machine (even that won't relate to some). Mine have all been vetted pretty well mechanically so the experience is the true car without wear factors. And knowing the differences make it most fun.

 

There are learning experiences, too. I was around to see the first air ride Caddys lying on their belly in the used car lot. Then in the 1990's I started seeing Lincolns next to shops with deflated air bags. The shops put them on a lift without switching off the air ride, they didn't know. I bet we've all seen those, looked like they had broken springs when they wouldn't pump up again. Last weekend I was jacking my '03 7'er BMW to put new tires on and check the inner workings. I was concerned about the two leveling systems in my car and didn't want to mess it up. Where's the switch? I found out the car can be raised but the leveling system won't engage unless it feels 55mm of jounce to know it is moving. Dang, ain't them computers something. Unwittingly I could have been in the position of those Lincoln mechanics.

 

On the Rivieras there are nuances of ownership, both servicing and driving. I like maintaining the machine and the extra it takes to optimize it for what it is.

Bernie

[KongaMan]

You drive by sense of smell?

[60FlatTop]

I become part of the machine.

[demon452]

Damn and I thought it was a "supple wrist".

[KongaMan]

In these parts, it's more like "deaf, dumb, and blind".

[jsgun]

I love the light steering. My 67 mustang had super light steering, I could easily drive with my pinky finger. My 92 vette's steering is so stiff it's like the mustang when it broke a belt. I have carpal-tunnel in my wrist, it causes it to hurt. Gotta use both hands sometimes. 

 

With the mustang, it used to wander and hunt, changing the alignment from the old bias ply settings helped a lot. It also saved wear on the wide radials. Telriv posted these specs for first gen Riv's before: Castor: 3* to 4* ; Camber: -.25* ; Toe in between 5/32 to 1/4"

[EmTee]

As light as the GM power systems were, my experience has been that the contemporary Chrysler systems were twice as boosted.  I had a '70 Chrysler Newport as a winter driver in College and I recall once my wife (girlfriend at the time) & I were driving home for the weekend and she was at the wheel.  She said that the steering felt 'loose', at which point I leaned over and noted that she was going 80 mph.  I suggested that she 'ease-off the gas and see whether that helps...'  The front-ends of those Chryslers (including my best-friend's '68 Charger R/T) were subject to aerodynamic lift at speeds above about 70 mph, which amplified the already over-boosted steering.

Edited March 23, 2019 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

On 3/22/2019 at 4:05 PM, 60FlatTop said:

When I serviced other people's collector cars, Buicks and Cadillacs, I saw a lot of pitman arm power steering leaks, many recently changed. I wouldn't put seals in them. I would put in a newly rebuilt box. Just the dirt at the seal lip would wear a ridge in the sector shaft. The new box assured no return on the leak repair, but most owners recognized improved steering.

It is hard for a modern mechanic to conceive what is going on with our cars beyond wiggling things and imagining how tight they should feel.

I have taken steering boxes apart, both worm and sector and recirculating ball types, and found tiny pits in the worm surface. This is an indication that wear has gone beyond the thickness of the surface hardening. And it will wear faster after that point. Needs box. On a first generation Riviera it is really hard to inspect the condition of the lower inner control arm bushings just to see if they are still concentric. A guy who has been doing McPherson struts for the last 20 years won't catch it. And the alignment guys will send you out with most of their stock of shims bristling from your upper A-frame. It is like taking a "foreign" car in for service in 1964, strange stuff to them.

 

I like driving my cars the way Tommy plays the pinball machine (even that won't relate to some). Mine have all been vetted pretty well mechanically so the experience is the true car without wear factors. And knowing the differences make it most fun.

 

There are learning experiences, too. I was around to see the first air ride Caddys lying on their belly in the used car lot. Then in the 1990's I started seeing Lincolns next to shops with deflated air bags. The shops put them on a lift without switching off the air ride, they didn't know. I bet we've all seen those, looked like they had broken springs when they wouldn't pump up again. Last weekend I was jacking my '03 7'er BMW to put new tires on and check the inner workings. I was concerned about the two leveling systems in my car and didn't want to mess it up. Where's the switch? I found out the car can be raised but the leveling system won't engage unless it feels 55mm of jounce to know it is moving. Dang, ain't them computers something. Unwittingly I could have been in the position of those Lincoln mechanics.

 

On the Rivieras there are nuances of ownership, both servicing and driving. I like maintaining the machine and the extra it takes to optimize it for what it is.

Bernie

Bernie, learning how to be part of the machine-as you have- is analogous to a musician becoming a part of their instrument. I know more about the instrument part then being part of the car. I was on a gig and the lead guitarist requested to change his location on stage b/c the AC cold was blowing his gtr out of tune. The human senses are amazing. How many calculations does an outfield baseball player’s brain have to make to allow him to snag a fly ball a long distance away?

Since I put all those new suspension and steering parts on my 63 it still has the boulevard cruise and I can keep the car in the lane.

[jsgun]

I was seriously looking into electric assist power steering for my mustang. It involved adding an assist motor from a Saturn Vue at the end of the column near the floor, and some type of simple controller that had an adjustment for the amount of assist you wanted. Turn a knob for more or less assist. Guys were using manual rack and pinion setups, and the electric motor for power assist. I thought it was pretty clever stuff.

[Turbinator]

On 3/22/2019 at 8:24 AM, telriv said:

The valve is 80mm like stock. The stub shaft is 13/16ths. like stock. The pitman arm is 1 1/4" like stock. The feel is like stock or I can make it a "Sport" feel. My boxes use the STOCK rag joint. My boxes are the "808" box that originally came on the big cars & is A BOLT-IN. NO special hoses, fittings, adapters or ANYTHING else required.

AND, at a much reduced cost than others available.

 

Tom T.

 

P.S. I do have a couple of the Riv. 15-1 boxes used.

Yes, I bought one of the Double T rebuilt steering boxes and the box went right in. Truth is it took too old men to hold and one to guide the steering box so we could bolt it in. Make double certain you use a torque wrench when you tighten the bolts that holds the steering box to the frame. I torqued mine to 70lbs. I bought a pitman arm socket OR you can rent one from an AutoZone, but mine only cost $15 bucks or so. But, the story remains the same- Check out the basics to see what it is wrong if anything. The car is designed for the boulevard ride. If you feel like you are flying an airplane when you are driving your Riviera check out the steering and suspension components.

[telriv]

For all intent purposes EVERYTHING remains EXACTLY the same as what you have now EXCEPT it takes much less input to turn the wheels further & you can drive with your knee while opening a beverage if you so like & it WILL stay in line going down the highway..

Tell them Bob.

 

Tom T.

[Turbinator]

On 3/30/2019 at 2:43 PM, telriv said:

For all intent purposes EVERYTHING remains EXACTLY the same as what you have now EXCEPT it takes much less input to turn the wheels further & you can drive with your knee while opening a beverage if you so like & it WILL stay in line going down the highway..

Tell them Bob.

 

Tom T.

Gents, the FACT of the matter is what Tom T is saying is the Truth with a capital "T". I had the sway bar rubber, track bar rubber, and 4 new Bilstein shocks installed and the feel was better from original. Once, the steering box was rebuilt it went back in the same way it came out. The difference once the steering box was replaced made the $ I spent well worth the investment. I'm really happy the installation of all the parts in the suspension was something I could do without having heart burn. The feel in the steering now felt like both front tires were on the road doing the steering, but real easy to steer. No loss in the boulevard ride just better. One new trick was learning how to use a crow foot tube wrench with long extension to tighten the power steering line connection down low near the fire wall. Lot of fun.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Turbinator (see edit history)

[BrianB]

http://www.powersteering.com/fast-ratio-conversions

 

Breakdown of Ratios

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, BrianB said:

http://www.powersteering.com/fast-ratio-conversions

 

Breakdown of Ratios

 

Quote

 

Can you convert my full-size GM car gearbox to a faster ratio? 

Yes, however some can require a housing replacement. The replacement housing will be 100% drop-in compatible at installation, the differences are internal. This will add to the cost. Call us if you want to learn more. 

 

 

It sounds like you send them you original 808 box and they return a smaller 600 box -- and charge you extra for doing so.

 

[telriv]

BrianB,

 

   What they are talking about is the 600 series of boxes that are for the smaller A-Body GM cars.  Which requires adapters, hoses & rag joints.

Like is said in there advertising they CAN rebuild YOUR box at extra cost, which is more than I sell mine for.

  AS you've read, mine are an "808" unit that's EXACTLY  like what you have now, a bolt-in swap. NO adapters, hoses OR anything special needed.

I have the boxes IN STOCK.

 

Tom T.

[Turbinator]

On 3/30/2019 at 2:43 PM, telriv said:

For all intent purposes EVERYTHING remains EXACTLY the same as what you have now EXCEPT it takes much less input to turn the wheels further & you can drive with your knee while opening a beverage if you so like & it WILL stay in line going down the highway..

Tell them Bob.

 

Tom T.

Tom, yeah that’s it. Technical analysis aside, take out the old steering box. Drain ALL the fluid out from the steering box. Use a USPS PRIORITY MAIL BOX and reinforce the inside with thin plywood. Wrap up the steering box. Send to Tom with a check. Get in return a rebuilt 808 that fits right back in as specified. Get a much better steering, ride, and handling while keeping the boulevard ride. Epitome of the cruise. No joke no jive. If you are close to central Maryland come and drive my car.

Turbinator