V-8 with horizontal valves?

[m-mman]

In a wrecking yard in Kansas. 

V-8 with horizontal valves(?)  Downdraft carb 

Any ideas?

[30sclassics]

Oakland.

[30sclassics]

To clarify the above:  1930/31 Oakland, or 1932 Pontiac.  (All same.)  Engine number is on left side of block.  1930 engine numbers start with 27, 1931 starts with 29, and 1932 Pontiac starts with 31.

[Hans1]

Number on Distributer or other items like starter or generator?

[m-mman]

Excellent.  I have heard of these but never seen one up close.

The horizontal valves made me think of an Auburn 12. 

 

As I remember they had a balance/vibration problem(?) Something about the V-angle they used and that there was a 'push rod' that shoved against the frame/mounts to counter this. Low survival I would assume. 

[Guest]

I would have to look up which is which but the connection from the frame to the balance shaft is on the opposite side depending whether it is an Oakland or a Pontiac.

[gwells]

Pretty rare motor, I think. Someone needs to snag it.

[lump]

Is that a second one behind it in the top photo...in the upper right corner? Looks like same head lying there. Finding two of them would increase the odds of having enough usable parts to make at least one good engine. Cool find! 

 

[nzcarnerd]

I can see a potential [problem with these engines. Having the two surfaces at an angle on each head would it be impossible to surface grind one or the other and get a match up?

[Guest]

The "synchronizer" is on the right on Oakland engines and on the left for Pontiac. The engine in the picture is therefore an Oakland engine as is obvious in the first picture right front corner.. Even replacing a head gasket would be difficult with the angle.

[nzcarnerd]

A story relating to the V8 Oakland engine. The main reason for the vibration issue was the fact that the engine had a flat crankshaft. Modern Ferrari V8s, among others, have flat cranks but I guess they operate at higher rpms and it isn't a problem.

 

https://www.pontiacoaklandmuseum.org/sites/default/files/storypdf/The-Oakland-V-Eight.pdf

[58L-Y8]

A major significant feature of these Oakland V8's is they are a mono-block two years before the Ford flathead V8 came to market.  The concurrent Viking V8 companion car to Oldsmobile is also a mono-block before Ford as well. 

[m-mman]

On 1/20/2019 at 12:43 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

A major significant feature of these Oakland V8's is they are a mono-block two years before the Ford flathead V8 came to market.  The concurrent Viking V8 companion car to Oldsmobile is also a mono-block before Ford as well. 

 

Hummmmmm. . . . never thought of that. That's neat,  

[58L-Y8]

Oakland was on the right track with their mono-block design, the single plane crankshaft was the downfall, that and angled block decks that required cylinder heads of the same design.

 

Eventually, GM did benefit from this early technological development when Cadillac introduced their first mono-block V8 for 1936.  Interesting enough, the 1932-'39 Packard Twelve is also a mono-block, which Packard also instituted for the 120 but didn't bother to do so for the Super Eights until the 356 ci of 1940.  They were the last to use this outdated method of engine design through 1939.

 

Steve 

[55matchless]

Thanks to @m-mmanfor helping me make the connection.

[58L-Y8]

55matchless: Did you just acquire these two engines and what do you plan to do with them?

[55matchless]

@58L-Y8 I picked them up in early October. A Conversation with M-mman allowed me to make contact with the man running the yard where they were located in Kansas. I live in California, so it was a bit of a trek, but we rolled it into a road trip we were taking to try to get the hell out of the house for a while. My goal is to find a 1930 or 1931 Oakland coupe to acquire. This has proven difficult so far, even with making contact with the various clubs and members. I have been interested in these engines for many years now, so this seemed like a cheap way to get some exposure. The plan is to disassemble them both to see what I've got, and hopefully build up one viable engine. I have the more complete one fully disassembled at this point and am about to start on the second one. So far, I am pretty pleased with how things are looking all things considered. 

[edinmass]

Very interesting design.......don’t ever remember seeing one......."interesting  and obscure”...........Three thumbs up. 👍👍👍

[58L-Y8]

55matchless:  Yes indeed, they are unusual and obscure.  They are also a milestone in the development of the modern V8 engine being among the first of mono-block design.  I hope you are able to return one to function and find a coupe in which to install it.  Keeping the other bare engine block to display would be a good idea because of its historic significance.

 

My first exposure to the 1930-'31 Oakland V8 was in the mid-'60 in a local junkyard that still had cars from that period.  I was getting my 'old car education' walking around among the badly weathered cars and came upon an Oakland V8.  I knew about the Ford flathead V8 but had never seen anything like the Oakland, sparked my curiosity to find out more.

Edited December 16, 2020 by 58L-Y8
Added picture of first Oakland V8 encountered. (see edit history)

[Bloo]

There was an example of the Pontiac version running and driving at the 2019 Early Times Chapter flathead reunion. The Pontiac engines are not identical to Oakland, but very close.

[lump]

10 hours ago, 55matchless said:

@58L-Y8 I picked them up in early October. A Conversation with M-mman allowed me to make contact with the man running the yard where they were located in Kansas. I live in California, so it was a bit of a trek, but we rolled it into a road trip we were taking to try to get the hell out of the house for a while. My goal is to find a 1930 or 1931 Oakland coupe to acquire. This has proven difficult so far, even with making contact with the various clubs and members. I have been interested in these engines for many years now, so this seemed like a cheap way to get some exposure. The plan is to disassemble them both to see what I've got, and hopefully build up one viable engine. I have the more complete one fully disassembled at this point and am about to start on the second one. So far, I am pretty pleased with how things are looking all things considered. 

Hey there, 55matchless. Congratulations on your acquisition of these cool and unusual old motors. I would LOVE to see photos of the disassembled engine...especially that single-plane crankshaft. I've never seen one, and I am curious. 

 

Wishing you best of luck in finding the Oakland coupe. Maybe you could place an ad in the H.A.M.B. forums? Perhaps you could find an Oakland coupe street rod project car, and use your engine to bring it back to original state. Wouldn't THAT be something "different" in the hot rodding/antique car worlds?!? 

[kings32]

I have a 1930 Oakland 4 dr I restored this car about two years ago it does not have any vib in the engine , my engine builder didn't have any trouble with it . Great car to drive. King32

[sagefinds]

The late 1916,early 17 Oakland also had a V-8,one year only until 1930. General Motors caught that V-8 fever with the 1915 Cadillac,1916 Oldsmobile and 1917 Chevrolet. Cadillac wasn't the first V-8 on the market but the only one to have one run concurrently and longest running production V-8 in the world. The 1914 Cadillac 4cyl engine was getting pretty archaic with the same type copper water jacket around the cylinders that the 1903 one cylinder had. They made the V-8 in secret and when it hit the market in 1915 it pretty much knocked the Packard engineers off their stool. Then they scrambled and built the Twin Six which didn't survive. Later around 1932 they came out with a well designed V-12. That's the way I understand it all.

[58L-Y8]

Multi-cylinder engines not only were another method to generate high amounts of torque but because they were larger displacement, fitting them to middle-priced and luxury makes was another way to differentiate and elevate the prestige their nameplate from the lower-priced, mass-market cars.   The V-type engine met this objective without quite the length occupied by a straight six which was the preferred configuration, at least until the straight eight caught on.  The advantage for the straight six was it could have a mono-block cast engine block which was less costly than the barrel crankcase, separate cast cylinder blocks required for a V8 because of the limitation of block casting technology.  This Oakland V8 being among the first production mono-block casting engines was a technological breakthrough, is its significance.

 

 

[55matchless]

Thanks for the enthusiasm & encouragement everyone. The engines will be a sizable project on their own, but I feel confident. Luckily for me, I am the machine shop & engine builder. The place I work does all sorts of oddball engine, machine, & fabrication jobs for various rare & obscure old cars, so I will have excellent resources on hand. I have considered starting a thread for my project, but was worried about it going stale by not updating regularly enough. Certainly all the photos & data collected will be compiled & available to anyone who is interested however.

 

@kings32 Where was your engine rebuilt? Were the cylinder head decks on the block cut during rebuild?

@58L-Y8Thanks for sharing your Oakland experiences. I too remember the first one I encountered. Been hooked ever since. My extra time at home this year has allowed me to take that existing interest & try to do something with it. I'll call that a success already.

@lumpI am taking lots of pictures along the way (including the crankshaft) & would be happy to share them. Good idea about the HAMB. I placed an ad there months ago, but had forgotten about it. So time to revive that I'd say.

 

 

[kings32]

All work was done by engine shop that I use here. Kings32