Bringing out a serial number on the frame

[Matt Harwood]

So I've got this lovely 1946 Ford convertible that's been restored to a very high level (Dearborn Award winner). The frame has been painted with a thick paint and while I can make out most of the serial number on the frame, some of it is obscured. The finance company that is underwriting the buyer won't accept these photos (below) because the 99A after the star isn't visible. It's kind of visible to the naked eye with a powerful flashlight, but the camera can't capture it. As a high-point car, I'm very reluctant to start sanding on the frame and the buyer has said he does not want it scuffed. Any ideas on bringing up the numbers without doing (a lot of) damage to the paint? A little light sanding with a Scotch-Brite pad or something? What do you painters think?

 

Thanks!

 

[keiser31]

Looks a little scuffed up already. Maybe buff with a Dremel tool until the star and 99A show up. Does the guy want to pass on the car or not? What does the owner have to say about finding the number and repainting that area?

[CarNucopia]

Have you tried to take a picture with the light coming from the side, as opposed to from the camera? If the light hits the panel at an acute angle, the numbers might appear more legible since it may not illuminate the engraving. 

[bob staehle]

Matt, try going over the area with welders soap stone, gently wipe it off. With any luck the white powder might highlight the numbers.

       Bob

[Matt Harwood]

Well, I talked to the buyer and seller and they both said if we had to scrape and sand, go ahead. The idiot at the finance company was insisting that he see the numbers. Never mind that the car is 70 years old and was stamped by a guy making $0.12 and hour and had 1200 cars to stamp that day. So we got the acetone and Scotch Brite pads out and carefully removed the paint. Guess what? The frame metal isn't flat, so the tops of the numbers aren't visible because they were never there.

 

The dumbest thing of all is that 99A means "1946 Ford V8" and every single V8 Ford and Mercury had it in 1946. The last 7 digits DO match the title. Shouldn't that be enough? The 99A shouldn't even be part of the VIN but at some point in the last 70 years, someone, somewhere added it and now we're stuck with it. There's exactly no way there could be any confusion that the car matches the title. But these idiots at the finance company are telling me that the title is bogus. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[61polara]

Matt,

Before you resort to something invasive, do a pencil tracing of the number.  Do you remember how to do that?  Place a piece of paper over the serial number and rub the paper with the side of he pencil led.  The low stamped areas will show through clearly.  May take a few tries to get the best one.  Most DMV's required this for serial number verification in the pre digital days.  Hopefully they will accept this today.  Just old technology!

 

[Curti]

Matt, maybe a different finance company ??

[Matt Harwood]

Well, the problem with finance companies is that they all use the same underwriting, so that probably won't change anything (I don't get to pick the finance company, either--the buyer does). We're optimistic that they'll accept what I've shown them. I'm angry because there's nothing wrong with the car, there's absolutely no funny business with the title, there's no ambiguity, there's no question this is the right frame number and it matches the title perfectly, but they're acting like there is deception going on and that I'm trying to pull a fast one. It's starting to spook the buyer, too. The problem is that a guy who doesn't know anything about old cars is looking at it and getting scared that if he underwrites it and it turns out to be bad, he'll be on the hook. And it goes all the way up the chain. They sent their inspector to look at the car, and she couldn't even see what I was talking about when I showed her the frame numbers--she was expecting some big, bright, shiny number plate and I just couldn't adequately explain to her that the numbers were stamped into the metal of the frame and then painted over, so they're very faint. She couldn't see it at all. She knows exactly nothing of old cars (shocked that a 1946 Ford would not have turn signals and power steering), so she reported it as "No VIN." That's where the problem really started. Ugh.

 

Someone else suggested going to the Highway Patrol and asking them to verify it, but as you can see from the photos, the '99A' part was incompletely stamped when it was new. Nobody's going to put their name on anything because they're all afraid it will come out badly and all the shait will roll downhill onto them. It is what it is.

 

My only alternative is to have a firewall tag made. Experts will know these cars don't have tags, but maybe we'll have to put one on to satisfy the underwriters and the DMV and put a nice, big, clear, legible VIN on the car.

 

Does anyone know how these were stamped when they were new? It almost appears that the 99A was stamped at a different time than the rest of the serial number. Would the 99A have been stamped when the frame was made so it could also be used as a part number, then the balance of the numbers were stamped when the chassis was assembled? That would explain the different fonts and misaligned numbers.

[MCHinson]

Matt,

 

I don't know much about 46 Fords. It seems that I have heard about other serial number locations on Fords of that era somewhere. This link appears to indicate to me that the serial number would also appear on the transmission bell housing (assuming it to be the original bell housing). Maybe that would be worth checking?

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/anyone-know-vin-serial-number-location-on-a-46-mercury.712625/

 

Here is another link that points to the number being on the bell housing.

 

http://www.wnyrg.org/tip.html

[DavidAU]

Mac Van Pelts site is probably the best site available regarding information on early Ford and Mercury vehicles and has a section dealing with the relevant frame numbers.

 

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_serialnumbers.htm 

[misterc9]

That bellhousing number looks to be a good bet. 99A is part of the VIN. Without it there would be a bunch of Fords of different years with the same VIN.

[JV Puleo]

What kind of camera are you using? We have similar problems at work reading worn markings on 17th and 18th century firearms. We use a big (16 megapixel) digital camera with a huge macro lens – nicknamed "the eye of god" – that will pick up markings that are invisible to the human eye. Not many people have these things... but if you've a friend who does, have them take a shot at it.

[Matt Harwood]

It's all good. The buyer had to sign a piece of paper verifying that if he could not get a good title, he would pay off the loan immediately. He said no problem and he's confident that he'll be able to get a good title. Everyone EXCEPT the brain-dead inspector who said "NO VIN" on the report is OK with the way it looks. Reasonable people have prevailed!

[Digger914]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It's all good. The buyer had to sign a piece of paper verifying that if he could not get a good title, he would pay off the loan immediately. He said no problem and he's confident that he'll be able to get a good title. Everyone EXCEPT the brain-dead inspector who said "NO VIN" on the report is OK with the way it looks. Reasonable people have prevailed!

Now would be a good time to delete the image that shows the vin for this vehicle, don't want someone at the DMV doing a Google search of 46 Ford VINS looking to learn about old Ford VINS before issuing a title coming up with the same number they are researching.

[Matt Harwood]

There's nothing wrong with the VIN. Nobody did anything wrong. There's nothing shady or dishonest going on. The car and the title are legit. There is no gray area or questionable indicator on this car. None. Nada. Zilch. The car is 100% correct and properly represented.

 

The guy at the factory was careless stamping this number--that's it. It's still legible, it's correct, and it matches the title. The problem came from a housewife-turned-vehicle inspector who came to look at the car. Because there wasn't a nice, pretty tag on the windshield to see, she was unable to process what I was telling her while pointing deep into the engine bay and telling her to look carefully. Instead, she told the finance company that there was no VIN on the car at all. Obviously that's not true and there's now photographic evidence to the contrary. The finance company, staffed by people who also know exactly nothing about old cars, saw the "No VIN" indicator on the report and automatically rejected the application, thinking that the car could not be properly identified or titled, which is also untrue, but probably SOP for them--no VIN, no money. ALL 1946 V8 Fords start with 99A. All of them. The unique indicator digits are the following seven numbers, which match the title and are clearly visible with no ambiguity.

 

There will be no problems registering the car anywhere else because anyone with a functioning brain can look at the numbers and understand what they're seeing. Everyone, that is, except Mrs. Housfrau who thought it would be fun to make a few extra bucks while the kids are at school looking at things she knows nothing about. There's a reason I don't examine nuclear power reactors for proper operation--I know nothing about them.

 

There are no worries about a future DMV finding these photos and this discussion. If anything, they'll be helpful, not harmful to someone trying to register this car, because the situation is clear. Sloppy stamping, legit numbers, no problem.

[Larry Schramm]

Might try the infrared setting on the camera if your camera has one.  Shine a light or heat gun on it for a minute or two and the numbers might come out??

 

Just a thought.

[Bill Stoneberg]

On September 17, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Everyone, that is, except Mrs. Housfrau who thought it would be fun to make a few extra bucks while the kids are at school looking at things she knows nothing about

 

I think the same person came to look at my car when I got hit for insurance purposes. I had to call and ask for a different estimator. "We can just get a new fender a lot cheaper then we can repair this one".

 

OK, Find me a new fender for my 1947 Buick....