Garage & Car Barn Thread

[STEVE POLLARD]

[STEVE POLLARD]

Failed to mention that the structure was up in one day....second day the windows and siding went up....

[alsancle]

I'll have to take some pictures of the garage my dad put up.  His was prefab also,  40x34.  The 34 depth is really 3 or 4 feet too short but the property setback was a limitation.   He has a full second story and the first two times they put the framing up the wind knocked it down.  The building inspector showed up after the second time and made them haul the whole thing away and bring a new one back.   True story!

Edited September 2, 2016 by alsancle (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I met with the architect today.  He said with the size a free standing pavilion will be considerably more expensive than to go stick built when the end result is to have a finish building due to the amount of extra bracing and the need for 8 by 8 14 foot tall pressure treated supports needed.  Mainly because I want to go off from a frost wall and not bury the posts.  

I ran some quick rough numbers for stick building it and materials for just the sheathing and studs comes in at only 4 grand.  He also brought up some other concerns that the planning guy didn't mention because of the size of the building. 

Right now if I were to go stick built material for everything above the ground with the walls and trusses up and a roof on it with windows and man doors The material list for above ground materials looks like it comes in around $38,000 Depending on any crazy type of engineered lumber for the headers (shouldn't be anything too crazy as the Garage door opening (2) are on the gable ends.  (these are my figures from years of doing carpentry and just pulling average material prices off the net from local supply houses.)   Labor of course is going to run that up but It won't take long for a framing crew to bang it out as it's only 1 story with no interior walls.    

This is with OSB sheathing on the walls  and 3/4 inch ply on the roof.  No insulation, no electrical no concrete.  

For the cost of the stick built materials looks like it might be most cost effective to go that route.  I still have to figure out how to get trusses up to the site.  

I have to also get this figured out so he knows how to draw it up as stick built or as a Pavilion or pole barn. 

Looks like to get it done,  I may have to go with making it a very big "tractor shed" this year.   There are real bonuses to making it a tractor shed as well. 

[Gary_Ash]

Here's a link to my web page with the story of building my 24'x36' garage back in 2002. [OMG, has it been that long?!?] 

http://www.studegarage.com/garage.htm

 

It was stick built on a 4'-6' ft deep concrete foundation wall, used attic trusses to get a 12'x36' loft room.  I had planned on a pull-down stairway, but the framing guy said he could push one of the trusses over about 2 ft and build a full 39" wide stairway.  I am so glad we did that, as it makes very good storage upstairs.  The walls were insulated and finished in OSB sheets.  A couple of years ago, I added a Modine "Hot Dawg" heater with about 70,000 BTU/hr.  It draws in external combustion air, has a closed combustion chamber, and exhausts to the outside.  That prevents blowing myself up from ignition of solvent fumes, etc. and also eliminates condensation from water produced by the burning of propane.  I set the winter temperature to about 40 °F to keep the costs down when I'm not in there and prevent freezing tools to my skin.  The garage will warm up in 15-30 minutes when I kick the thermostat up.

 

What would I do differently?  I should have had more height so I could get a lift in the garage or left one bay open.  I also should have paid a few extra bucks to the concrete floor guys to have them come back the next day and saw slots in the floor every 6-8 ft so that it didn't crack randomly.  A large concrete floor WILL crack, even with steel mesh reinforcement.  Concrete is easy to saw while it's still green.  I had two old cars when I built the garage, planned to acquire one more.  Now I have four, and an antique utility trailer from an old Studebaker bed, and a "wall art" project, and lots of metal fab equipment, and my two modern cars live outside, so I am now thinking of another structure to house more stuff.  He who dies with the most toys - and the biggest garage - wins!!! 

[alsancle]

Is the architect charging by the hour or giving you a flat fee?   The total architects bill with engineering was around 3k for my barn and that was 10 years ago.  Of course, I changed a few things along the way which didn't help.

 

Gary,  love it.  I imagine that loft is 100% full at this point?   I like the looks of the 1.5 story better but my dad went Gambrel so he has a full second story... and you can't walk up there.

[auburnseeker]

It will be a flat fee.  Which is based on square footage,  but since he doesn't have to do the electrical or any interior walls or finishes and it's pretty much just a rectangular box,  he said he will adjust the price to make it a little more reasonable than he would charge for a multi level house. 

He actually took me to look at a couple of free standing roofs he designed that were in lines with the size of my project.  I could see all the extra bracing that was required.   I could see that eating up the 4G in wall materials pretty quick as well as labor.  Makes more sense  at this time.  If I leave the other end partially open I can do the pour from their next year.  All things to consider I guess.  

[SC38dls]

I guess I got lucky. When my daughter was pretty young and getting seriously into horses we purchased a 5.5 acre place. Then we fenced it in -- manual labor by pops. Then I started looking for barn builders.  They wanted more for the barn than I spent on our first house!  So we went around to every barn we knew and got ideas. Drew up the plans and pops power got going again.  We ended up with a 40 x30 4 stall barn with a hay loft that could hold 400 bales of hay. After college she took the horses east and the barn was empty. When I originally built I made all of the stall walls removable as I knew it would make a great building for my future cars. The floor was non slip bricks. Each stall had a Dutch door and the isle had 4 Windows, double doors at each end.  Ventilation was great lighting was great. Hot and cold water. Started to rebuild my collection when my wife decided it was time to downsize so we sold it!  I really miss that building. I did learn one thing from all of it. Never buy anything that eats while you sleep!  Have fun keep building so the rest of us can dream.  

[alsancle]

GEO Barns  are a popular builder in New England and come with great references.  They have built a number of "car barns" which you can check out on their website:http://www.geobarns.com/gallery.htm

 

I particularly like them because for stick built they are reasonably priced and the end result will work in a residential setting.

 

[auburnseeker]

I looked into Geobarn when I started but never got around to pricing.  I figured with what I wanted a pole barn was going to be cheaper because of the size.  Seems I have gone full circle and back to stick built because of the size.  If I wasn't so crunched I would check into it.   

 

Hopefully whoever had that one built doesn't get snow in their location because having a metal roof that pitch and garage doors on a sidewall is asking for trouble. 

[alsancle]

If you are going back to stick you should talk to them.  My understanding is that they are very reasonable relatively speaking.

 

The metal is the same issue you have with slate I assume?  You hear a locomotive coming and it is 2k pounds of snow picking up speed.  With slate you address it by spiking the entry doors to break it up or catch it.  Not sure what you do with metal.

[Gary_Ash]

Be sure to check with your local building inspector before getting too deep in an open roofed structure.  In my desire to expand my storage space, I made plans for a 24'x26' pole barn-type structure to go inside an existing stone barn foundation.  A few years back, I had the tumbled-down wall and accompanying silo foundation from the mid-1800s completely rebuilt.  The wall now looks like the original dry-laid stone but there is lots of crushed rock and cement behind the stones.  I designed a trussed roof supported by ten 8x8 posts with metal roofing, no walls.  It would be tall enough for an enclosed car hauler trailer and a lift.  It probably would not be expensive. 

 

The building inspector looked at the plans and informed me that I needed to design for 100 lb/sq ft snow loads and had some pretty stringent requirements for cross-bracing and tie-downs.  It seems that open structures are more susceptible to damage from being lifted by strong winds.  That's important here in coastal Massachusetts.  He said if I added walls of even the simplest sort, it would reduce the wind effects and strengthen the building since the walls would take up shear forces.  It would also get me back to only 40 lb/sq ft snow load design, though I'm not sure why this would now be OK.  The difference in cost between trusses for 100 lb/sq ft and 40 lb/sq ft is very small.  Since I made the drawings, I'm thinking more about pouring an 8"-12" high concrete base on top of the stone wall so that the posts can sit on top of the wall on a level surface.  I would gain some useable width inside.  I had a registered engineer survey the stone wall and give me a written approval to do this.  He recommended several techniques to meet code requirements for tie-downs.  I'd need longer trusses than the original design and more sq ft of roofing.  The walls might be T1-11 siding with stain.

 

In my dreams, I'd build a 2-story barn so I could park cars on the upper level with trailers and a Ford 8N tractor (which I don't own now) on the lower level.  Code doesn't allow wood floors for car storage, so I'd have to use pre-cast concrete planks but Oldcastle and other companies make those to order.  See https://oldcastleprecast.com/wp-content/uploads/garage.pdf.  I'd also put a nice round gazebo on top of the silo foundation.  It's amazing how many problems can be solved by the simple application of sufficient cubic dollars!

 

 

 

[auburnseeker]

I just fired Geobarns an email with the specs to check into availability even.  This time of year in the Northeast,  they may be booked through January. 

If I don't get a response I'll give them a call in a day or so.  Of course we have a Holiday weekend on us to throw a wrench in the works. 

[auburnseeker]

A rough preliminary from geobarns was 200-300G.  I would need to set down and go over details so they could make plans and go from their.  I'm sure their building would have alot more style to begin with than what I'm thinking.

They don't really like shingled roofs.   Being from New England I don't see how they could like Metal roofs.

They also thought my pitch was really flat and would want alot more.  As much as that sounds good there are problems with a steeper pitch as there is a 40 foot height limit in the Adirondack park.  You also have increased cost for more roofing material and sheathing as well as some serious timber framing if they don't do trusses. 

I would love to beable to give them free reign and build me something really cool, but It's just not in the budget.  I can add alot of character later. 

[auburnseeker]

I just talked with my Architect.  I'm going to have him start drawing up the plans this week. $2000  for the plans because of the size and $500 for the engineer stamp so another 2500 on the project.  Seems steep considering it's just a rectangular clear span  box with no finishing inside and a very simple exterior design,  but I guess that's the pay to play around here. 

 I think I went to school for the wrong thing.  I've shown a drawing I did to another architect for a different job in the past and he said why are you hiring me.  I told him it was for the stamp. 

[alsancle]

200-300?  What was the footprint again?

[K8096]

Here's my detached garage.   Built almost 9 years ago.   It's 1500 square feet.  37.5 feet wide by 40 feet deep.   I wanted to do 40 X 60 but the old ladies who live behind me complained so there was no way I'd get a variance (They still live there, so I won't go in to the details now.  I will someday after they move away).  Zoning allowed for 1500 square feet with no variance on a detached structure so I went with that.   It's just the basic structure right now: no electricity, insulation or drywall yet.  That will all be done down the road.  No windows (security) and just one entrance door.    I went with the 40 feet deep so I could put 2 full size cars end to end in it.   The roof is engineered trusses, so there are no posts holding the roof up anywhere.  I had 9 cars stuffed in it the first winter after it was built.  .   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by K8096 (see edit history)

[K8096]

Then the next year we added 50 feet to the attached garage on the house, about 1200 square feet.  It has windows on the front to match the house.  I put 2" thick insulation board on the ground before having the concrete floor poured.  I want to heat this area someday, and this will help the floor not be so cold.  Again, this is just a basic structure, no electricity or drywall yet.  The rafters are 2 X 12s with a plywood floor nailed in so I can store stuff overhead.   I have 6 cars stuffed in this right now.   

 

  

 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by K8096 (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

200-300?  What was the footprint again?

The foot print is 60 by 72 with a 16 foot side wall. 

I have been emailing the guy from GEO barns and he said he is quoting something right now a little more in line with my project and he's come down a bit and wants a chance to give me a real zeroed in quote. 

I told him to go ahead.  We'll see. It's probably still going to hit higher than my rough estimations which I imagine are off by a bit as well.  Usually double the materials and that is a good labor estimate but on a project like this there is very little detail work and all rough work which can be done a whole lot faster.  Especially without electric or interior walls or siding or insulating. 

[alsancle]

60x72 is a big foot print for stick built clear span and the Geo buildings all have a loft so I guess I can see it would be expensive.  If you look on their website they have buildings that size but they are all commercial.  I think you will be right that they probably will be out of your budget.

 

Jason,  your garages blend in nicely with the yard and house so the old ladies next door should be happy.  I haven't been over there in years but when my buddy put up his metal building in the back yard the neighbors went absolutely bananas and I sort of understand.

Edited September 4, 2016 by alsancle (see edit history)

[midman]

I was lucky with my house. One of the reasons I bought it was that it had a foundation and slab already done ( though 20 years old) and it had roughed in plumbing!

It is 28x32 so I can fit 3 cars and two motorcycles with the lift I put in and still have room to work. Putting in a bathroom and slopsink was a big plus. I made the interior height 11' for the lift.

Not as big as my old 40x50 but this one is insulated, heated, has a bathroom, and has the lift, and though I would like to have more space I know I would just fill it with more cars that I wouldn't have time to get to.

All in without having to do any concrete or foundation work it was about 35k in 2009 with me doing most of the work.

I wish I would have speced prefab trusses allowing attic storage though. 

Chuck

 

 

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, midman said:

 I would like to have more space I know I would just fill it with more cars that I wouldn't have time to get to.

 

This is the quandary right here!   Whatever size you build the garage to you will fill with stuff.  Every guy on this forum would do the same thing.  It begs the question of how much can you actually ever get to?  

 

I think in some ways you are lucky if you are boxed in by zoneing or property setbacks because it will keep things reasonable. 

 

Btw,  The big sink is a great idea and having the bathroom his huge plus.

[alsancle]

Oh yeah,  I love that Buick.

[auburnseeker]

My need for space also comes from my business.  I sell NOS parts so you have to buy what comes along and sort.  The goal is to try to move out the stuff you won't get to and only keep what you are going to actually market. I find less time to sort especially with the new house on the other end of town that needs alot of stuff to make it what we want.  I was at the grab and go point last year, where you grab your 10 listings for the night and then go.  I'm buying steady and get a few packages of parts lots in every week.  You have to buy when the stuff comes along not when you want to buy it. 

I also wanted enough space to store the tractor and excavator as well as keep my daily driver inside.  I have 4 "keepers" right now and always plan to have one or 2 cars coming through the door to enjoy for a year or so and then move on.  I've passed on mow than one car I thought was a deal and wasn't planning to keep forever because I didn't have space.  I'm not into buying the 2000-3000 needs everything car that I might get to some day,  so I have alot of money tied up in some of my cars (not crazy money) but enough you have to sell one to get the next.  That keeps the herd kind of culled. 

[29pickhupp]

A couple photos of my garage which I built 5 years ago. It is 26 x 42 . The lower level has a 10 foot ceiling  with a clear span.  The wood trussed I joists are 26' long. Upper floor is also a clear span and is about 11' to the highest part of ceiling and used for storage. There is a stairway to the upper floor and accessed by the man door on the left. 

The exterior is pine board and batten with a section done in a cordwood veneer. The interior is still mostly unfinished 

John

[midman]

Nice, I like the old barn look, and stone accents.

[Luv2Wrench]

All of these are great shops, the last barn is just awesome.  My shop is a little more humble but I love it just the same.  The previous owner of my house had built a giant structure to house his RV.  It was open on three sides and, very unfortunately, the giant 45'x20' flat wall faced the back of our house so that was the view and the Wife did not approve.  It also had a little shed attached to it that was pretty much falling down.  To make my shop I cut the roof right down the middle, hacked half of the big wall off, flipped over the rafters and converted it into a gable style roof.  I was able to reuse a lot of the sheathing and really only had to add the engineered beams and studs to finish the exterior walls.  I added a lot of windows for light and airflow.  It is finished off to look like a guest house and sits nicely with our main house.  I finished the inside and it is pretty well stocked at this point (like, I'm out of room already).  Total inside space is 45'x24' arranged as a 12'x24 room for the machine shop/storage/compressor/dust collection/etc/etc and the main room at 33'x24'.  A 9' ceiling height leave some room for storage in the attic though you need to watch your head up there.  Since the PO used this for parking his RV, the driveway leads right to it with a great turn around area and additional parking.  I will not have any room to store anything but the current project and that will probably become a problem down the road.  In hindsight 1080 sq ft was never going to be enough room but I didn't know that at the time and I wouldn't have had the money to do anything bigger anyway... so I'm happy with what I've got.

 

[auburnseeker]

Looks like one huge improvement over what you had and the wife must be alot happier.  Mine still thinks I'm building a Walmart super center in the back yard.  It's actually the side yard to the house and there is 170 foot between the house and the garage which is forest so I don't think you are really going to see it from the house other than a little filtered glimpse.  I'm thinking of Board and batton siding Stained dark brown with stone up 2 feet and eventually a covered porch style roof on the visible side that wraps around the front to help break up the big wall.  Once the shell is up there are alot of decorative options that equate to more labor than money.  Pine lumber around here is really cheap as you can tell from the photos of the future job site.  Rough cut is real reasonable as well for decorative exposed rafters. 

[Luv2Wrench]

I've yet to see a Walmart with Board and Batten siding, stone and/or a covered porch... so I think you'll be in the clear.  For me the improvement in the view out the back of the house was the big gain... the fact I got a shop out of it as well was a bonus.

[alsancle]

I don't have a bad situation but I don't have a great one.  I not complaining at all but have lusted after a real garage since I was 16.  I have a basement with a door that I can stuff 4 cars in to, maybe 5 if I don't need to get around them with an additional two car attached.  The problem is of course the extra stuff in there with the cars.

[alsancle]

These guys are in Mass and have some interesting stick built car barns.  http://circleb.com/garages-storage/

 

This one is 30' x 40' x 14' but doesn't look to be clear span.  They have some larger clear span barns.

[Amphicar BUYER]

On 9/2/2016 at 5:43 PM, Gary_Ash said:

I also should have paid a few extra bucks to the concrete floor guys to have them come back the next day and saw slots in the floor every 6-8 ft so that it didn't crack randomly.  

 

It should have been done while the concrete was wet with a trowel at $0 as part of a professional job). It shouldn't need be cut into cured concrete after the fact.

[Gary_Ash]

Can you do that with a trowel in 4" of concrete with wire mesh in it?

[Amphicar BUYER]

Yes, The joint is not meant to go through the entire thickness, it is just like the lines on a chocolate bar, it give a controlled place for the crack to go.

[trimacar]

I've been involved in a lot of pours, here in Virginia and in Sacramento when I spent a lot of time there remodeling a dairy processing facility.  We always poured the concrete, let it cure until you could get on it without damage, then cut the stress relief lines with a concrete saw.  To be effective, the cut needs to be about halfway through the slab thickness, and spaced according to slab thickness and a factor of 3, converted to feet (for example, a 6 inch slab would be 6 x 3 = 18 feet).  Cuts are in a square pattern.

 

The science of concrete and slab working are much more complex than a lot of people think, the concrete has to have the correct mix, the correct slump, not be too wet or dry, and must be worked properly.  On thicker slabs you have to use the machinery to vibrate and eliminate air pockets and bubbles.  Proper reinforcement is critical, and must be placed correctly in the slab.

 

Like any trade, there's a lot more too it than meets the eye.  Some slabs are great, but I've also seen poor work result in a mess, with flaking concrete and nasty cracking.

 

If you really want to get technical, investigate "super flat" concrete floors, as used in many robotic palletizing installations.  Those floors have to be accurate to within 1/8" in ten feet, and they're amazing.  You can pour a little water on such a floor, and it goes in every direction, with just a thin coating remaining.  I can assure you that none of your garage floors are anywhere close to that specification!!

[auburnseeker]

"If you really want to get technical, investigate "super flat" concrete floors, as used in many robotic palletizing installations.  Those floors have to be accurate to within 1/8" in ten feet, and they're amazing.  You can pour a little water on such a floor, and it goes in every direction, with just a thin coating remaining.  I can assure you that none of your garage floors are anywhere close to that specification!! "

 

 

I don't know my old shop floor is pretty close.  It's 20 feet wide and with the Cord parked in the middle and the rear tire on one side completely flat with the tube hanging out of the side wall it sits pretty level.

[trimacar]

Nice!  A whole new definition of "super flat"!!  At least when you drop something round, you know where to look for it.....

 

The tires on my '37 Cord were about 50 years old, and you could just about see the air in them.  Some people didn't like the fact that I replaced them with blackwalls, but with the patina of a 1950's used car lot car, it looks appropriate to me! The picture is at Auburn a few years ago, I forgot to tell them car was unrestored and it was placed among the shiny paint cars, but that's another story entirely......

[Gary_Ash]

It's not a good idea to have the floors flat and level.  A gasoline leak should run towards the door, not pool under the car.  Minimum slope is 1/8" per foot, 1/4" per foot might be better.  Here's a typical building code requirement:

R309.3 Floor surface.
Garage floor surfaces shall be of approved noncombustible material.
The area of floor used for parking of automobiles or other vehicles shall be sloped to facilitate the movement of liquids to a drain or toward the main vehicle entry doorway.

 

A floor that is smooth and level side-to-side is a good thing. 

 

And speaking of concrete floors, what is a good finish for concrete?  Clear sealer, paint, epoxy, vinyl flooring, outrageously expensive garage mats?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Guest]

Another good reason to not have level floors in a garage.  If your floor that slopes slightly towards the door it is easier to get a car out in case of fire.  I know a lot of people that leave the brakes off and the cars out of gear (just a wedge block under the tires nearest the door).   Some people even have a rope with a decent handle on the blocks so a simple jerk will allow the car to roll out of the garage.

[auburnseeker]

I had a friend stop by and was discussing my project with him.  He suggested 2 x 8 walls instead of 2 x 6's.  The more I thought about it and priced things out,  it makes alot of sense.  2 inches of more insulation space,  no step to the 8 foot frost wall.  The cost is not quite a third more than 2x6.  In the grand scope of things and then probably padding the 2 x6 wall out later for more insulation,  I think I'm going with 2x8.  They usually are a little better than 2x6 because they have to cut them from wider better lumber.  I think the cost will be around an extra 1000.00 or less. On a total 100G project that's only 1 percent.  Probably well worth it.