1923 Cardway has a new owner! Please help!

[Guest AlCapone]

As of Tuesday of this week I am the proud new owner of the 1923 Cardway ! Thank you Steve Gibbs, a true gentleman to deal with !

Now I need lots of help. Where do I get replacement parts, manuals, operating instructions, tuneup specifications and everything else ! If anyone has any suggestions or advice I would appreciate same. If you know of or see any Cardway parts or literature please contact me immediately ! Thanks already for those that replied to the other posts. My first job is to try to get this smile off my face ! Wayne

[wayne sheldon]

Congratulations! You can't get much more rare than that. And a good looking car also!

Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2

[Guest AlCapone]

Thanks Wayne, the right hand drive will be a challenge, I am sure !

Wayne

[ksparks]

Thanks Wayne, the right hand drive will be a challenge, I am sure !

Wayne

super, i saw it advertised not to long ago...maybe ebay....great, a rare car

Edited January 16, 2015 by kmstrade (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

You are embarking on an adventure, enjoy!

[Guest AlCapone]

You are embarking on an adventure, enjoy!

​I am going to need lots of help from people just like you that knows cars ! Wayne

[Guest Rp1967]

If I have the correct cardway listing in my Motorcars encyclopedia your RHD model is a one of a kind, with only 5 other LHD models produced.

[Guest AlCapone]

If I have the correct cardway listing in my Motorcars encyclopedia your RHD model is a one of a kind, with only 5 other LHD models produced.

Thanks that is true I am told. Does it say much more ?

Wayne

[Guest Rp1967]

That they use a continental engine.

that should make engine and tuneup specs easy, as several other makes used that basic engine.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Al, can you post pictures of your Cardway?

I've heard of many obscure cars, but I had never

heard of a Cardway until I looked it up in the

Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942.

My copy of that book, the 2nd edition, states,

"One of the Cardway cars remains extant, in a

collection in Canada." It also says that at least five,

and possiibly six, Cardways were built.

"Possiibly all Cardways had right-hand-drive,

because export seems to have been the aim from

the beginning," the reference also says.

I don't know if that text was updated in the later edition;

but you may have the only one known!

Edited January 16, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

Al, can you post pictures of your Cardway?

I've heard of many obscure cars, but I had never

heard of a Cardway until I looked it up in the

Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942.

My copy of that book, the 2nd edition, states,

"One of the Cardway cars remains extant, in a

collection in Canada." It also says that at least five,

and possiibly six, Cardways were built.

"Possiibly all Cardways had right-hand-drive,

because export seems to have been the aim from

the beginning," the reference also says.

I don't know if that text was updated in the later edition;

but you may have the only one known!

Thank you John The one I purchased was from the Canadian collection from Steve Gibbs from Ontario and I live in Ontario, Canada. It has an Australian decal / permit on the front window. It is of course right hand drive. When the snow clears I will get more pictures. The present pictures which are not great are of the Motometer radiator cap, Cardway hood ornament, dash, gas tank with gas gauge embedded on the rear of the car, side compartments on door panels which hold the original tools, jack and tools in compartment under rear seat.

Thanks again, Wayne.

[trimacar]

That's a neat car, followed it on Ebay, congrats on your purchase! Not many people own what could be a one of a kind, have fun with it!

[Guest Rp1967]

This is the entire paragraph from, The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars, edited by G.N.Georgano, printed 1970.

Cardway, U.S. built 1923-1925

Frederick Cardway , Newyork, N.Y.

This is an assembled car using a Continental 6 cylinder engine. A total of 6 cars all touring models were built by Colonel Cardway, of which one was fitted with Right hand drive and exported to Australia.

and thats it from a book of 637 pages.

[Guest AlCapone]

This is the entire paragraph from, The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars, edited by G.N.Georgano, printed 1970.

Cardway, U.S. built 1923-1925

Frederick Cardway , Newyork, N.Y.

This is an assembled car using a Continental 6 cylinder engine. A total of 6 cars all touring models were built by Colonel Cardway, of which one was fitted with Right hand drive and exported to Australia.

and thats it from a book of 637 pages.

Thankyou for the effort !

Wayne

[Guest AlCapone]

Hi folks. I wnt today to the storage area to get more pictures. Several people had asked about the distributor, The car I believe does not have a distributor but instead a magneto ( I obviously know nothing about this type of car ). The previous owner included a magneto in the deal that had been rebuilt. This is my only extra part.

Today I purchased a set of monstrous sized Champion W20 spark plugs. So I take it that these means the car has no points, rotor and condenser is that correct ? Thanks again, Wayne

[Guest Rp1967]

One thing I can tell you about old magnitos is that you can reenergize them if they get weak by taking your high tension lead and touch it back to the body of the mag while spinning the mag with a drill motor.

we had to do this to the mag on my fathers Henderson KJ.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Rp1967 (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

One thing I can tell you about old magnitos is that you can reenergize them if they get weak by taking your high tension lead and touch it back to the body of the mag while spinning the mag with a drill motor.

we had to do this to the mag on my fathers Henderson KJ.

What exactly is a magneto, what is its purpose and are they a good thing or bad ? Wayne

[JV Puleo]

It has points and a condenser as well as a rotor. These are all parts of the magneto which you can think of as a permanent magnet generator that generates low tension current, converts it to high tension and distributes it to the spark plugs. Its a self-contained ignition system. What type of magneto is it? Generally, direction of rotation is critical although some mags are adjustable for either clockwise or counterclockwise rotation. Generally, mags are interchangeable if the direction of rotation is the same. i.e. you can run a Bosch mag on a car that had a Remy etc...

Mags were precision instruments. They went out of general use because they were much more expensive than the "Delco" system. There are good reasons why airplanes, racing cars and expensive cars (like Rolls-Royce) continue to use them long after they were replaced on common vehicles.

Edited January 19, 2015 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Pictures, we need pictures! I can tell you this...NEVER absentmindedly spin a magneto over while you are on the phone and the mag is resting in your lap.

[Guest AlCapone]

My wife and I are pretty much computer illiterate. When we get home this evening we will try once again to post pictures. Thanks JV And 32 ! Hopefully my antique car mechanic has some knowledge of these electrical beasts. Wayne

[Guest Rp1967]

They are basically an ignition system in one unit

they generate electrical power via magnets and an armature instead of using a battery excited coil , and they distribute spark with a cap and rotor much like a distributor.

I have a Dykes auto repair manual printed 1921 I think, There is probably a diagram of a mag that Continental would have used in it , if so I will post a pic of it.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Rp1967 (see edit history)

[mercer09]

restorer32

sounds like a Napoleon Dynamite moment......................................!

[JV Puleo]

When I was in my 20s I had a 1910 REO that needed a mag. The simple solution was to run over to Bill's Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI because Bill had a shelf full of them in the back. I picked one out and brought it to the counter. "How do I know if it works" I asked Bill. "Hold on to that wire" he said. I did and he spun it. It was two weeks before the ache in my left arm went away.

[Ivan Saxton]

Wayne, the best way for you to aquire a comprehensive understanding of magnetos is to buy a copy of Dyke's Automobile Encyclopedia . I found listings from $40 to four times that price. An Indian publisher has reprints of the 1911 edition for seventy -odd dollars, but you do not need an early one. You can get an e-book for $10, but without the illustrations this would metaphorically be like a dairy cow without an udder. 1943 editions abound, which also cover aero engines. Aero engines almost exclusively had magneto ignition for many decades, because the magneto is essentially a very well-made and reliable device for supplying very high voltage timed electrical impulses to the spark plugs, without need for a battery. Two magnetos and two spark plugs per cylinder were often used, not so much as insurance against engine failure. In large combustion chambers, twin ignition reduces the distance and the number od microseconds for travel of the flame front(s), which means more power, and better smoothness and fuel consumption. ( with John Hancox's 1924 6 cylinder Mercer, you can see and hear the improvement as the second set of sparkplugs are switched to fire.) Of course, reliable ignition is much more important for an aeroplane than a car, because if the ignition fails you are likely to perish due to gravity.

Most magnetos on cars have magnets of alloy composition that very seldom need re-charging. ( My friend Bill Orde trained and worked for an auto electrical specialist in Bendigo. Customers who brought their T Fords to have the flywheel magnets re-charged had to leave their car for a whole day, and the boss charged them for a day's work even though they used a trick method that took only a few minutes without dismantling anything.

That was Business, and the is little doubt there are people who could provide the same for you today).

The main problem with original magnetos that has in the past afflicted antique car owners on tours is due to perishing of the insulating varnish on the primary and secondary coil windings of the armature. Typical scenario is that the car runs perfectly till lunchtime. During lunch the soft melted varnish runs down and solidifies , locking the armature between the magnet pole-pieces. Then the engine will not turn. If you try to tow-start, you will break something difficult to repair in the magneto drive or the magneto. Your magneto has almost certainly been re-wound with enamelled wire, of which the coating has plasticity to conform to the machine-winding, but will not melt and run. That is in view of the car's history. (Unfortunately, with the mindless export of manufacturing industry to places like China, there have been problems with insulation quality of enamelled copper wire. I hope that is now corrected).

If you can turn the engine over freely with the "armstrong starter", the magneto is likely to be fine. Very rarely the capacitor which is sealed into the armature with the coil may give trouble, and significant work and care will be needed to replace it with a modern substitute, which will be better quality and more compact, and totally reliable. A lot of magneto trouble can be spanner trouble, so it is prudent to get yourself a copy of Dyke's book and learn what you want to do. Nevertheless some of the most knowledgeable antique car people may have difficulty re-mounting a magneto properly timed to the engine, so it is no shame to have that difficulty if you recognise it. Two of Harrah's cars came to Australia for the 1970 Sydney to Melbourne International Veteran and Vintage Car Tour. Bud and Bernice Catlett drove the 1913 66hp Pierce Arrow, and Ray and Sylvia Jesch drove the big cream-coloured Thomas Flyer. ( It was planned that Mr and Mrs Harrah would also tour in the cars, but we were told that they had just suffered an unfortunate interpersonal relationship malfunction, so they did not come. ) Now it seems that the magneto was improperly timed on the Pierce Arrow, and bud had to drive it from Sydney to Canberra on the auxiliary trembler coil ignition. My 1918 Mercer was parked close to it where the cars were parked around the perimeter of Northbourne Oval in Canberra, and I was chatting to him as he was trying to time the magneto properly. Now you can converse while you are working on an antique car, but I gathered that bud was a little unsure of what he was doing. I asked him respectfully if he would like me to help, and he immediately passed the job to me. You always start from first principles, so I set the crankshaft on Top Dead Centre number 1 cylinder by the valves, and explained what I was doing, and why. When I finished he started the Pierce on the trembler coil, and it ran perfectly when he switched to magneto. I was much younger than he was, and I suspect now that bud was just trying to find out what I did and didn't know.

Well, when they drove Harrah's cars back to Sydney to be shipped back home to USA, they planned to take the Prince's Highway, which largely follows the coast. So it was arranged that they should have lunch at my parents' home at Drouin, after looking at my cars and those of my friends. Bud said to me that he was embarrassed that there were three extra people, a lad from Sydney in the Thomas as passenger, and a couple from Santa Rosa, California with their car. They were planning to lunch separately in town ; but I told Bud there would be plenty for everyone, and we would manage perfectly well. There were nine of us in all, including Stuart Middlehurst. There was a big roast leg of lamb perfectly cooked in an oven of the slow combustion stove, and I put extra vegetables in the steamer. Serving up was super-quick and easy, because Bernice, Sylvia, and Martha Helwig did that. When we sat down to eat, little more than half an hour after we stepped in the door, the food had to cool enough to eat. And they seemed surprised that I had been with them all morning, I was the only one home, and I was the cook. Of course, cooking is much as Henry Leland explained to the English when they asked him how it was possible to manufacture automobiles with available spare parts of perfect fit, when Cadillac first won the Dewar Trophy. He said it was "really a very simple process. First you have to decide what you want to do, and how you are going to do it. Then you do it the way you decided".

I hope that helps you Wayne. Do drive, and tour, and show, and enjoy your new outlaw car. But please don't try to outrun a police Model L V8 Lincoln. They are a much more expensive car, and far too quick.

[Guest 32stude]

Seems to me I think about 15 million model t fords had a magneto system

[Guest Rp1967]

Ivan is correct you need to pick up a Dykes manual

was going to try and post some mag info from my 12th edition but there is probably more than 40 pages of it all on different types

and the bonus is it has a large section on continental engines which may help you.

[Guest AlCapone]

Wayne, the best way for you to aquire a comprehensive understanding of magnetos is to buy a copy of Dyke's Automobile Encyclopedia . I found listings from $40 to four times that price. An Indian publisher has reprints of the 1911 edition for seventy -odd dollars, but you do not need an early one. You can get an e-book for $10, but without the illustrations this would metaphorically be like a dairy cow without an udder. 1943 editions abound, which also cover aero engines. Aero engines almost exclusively had magneto ignition for many decades, because the magneto is essentially a very well-made and reliable device for supplying very high voltage timed electrical impulses to the spark plugs, without need for a battery. Two magnetos and two spark plugs per cylinder were often used, not so much as insurance against engine failure. In large combustion chambers, twin ignition reduces the distance and the number od microseconds for travel of the flame front(s), which means more power, and better smoothness and fuel consumption. ( with John Hancox's 1924 6 cylinder Mercer, you can see and hear the improvement as the second set of sparkplugs are switched to fire.) Of course, reliable ignition is much more important for an aeroplane than a car, because if the ignition fails you are likely to perish due to gravity.

Most magnetos on cars have magnets of alloy composition that very seldom need re-charging. ( My friend Bill Orde trained and worked for an auto electrical specialist in Bendigo. Customers who brought their T Fords to have the flywheel magnets re-charged had to leave their car for a whole day, and the boss charged them for a day's work even though they used a trick method that took only a few minutes without dismantling anything.

That was Business, and the is little doubt there are people who could provide the same for you today).

The main problem with original magnetos that has in the past afflicted antique car owners on tours is due to perishing of the insulating varnish on the primary and secondary coil windings of the armature. Typical scenario is that the car runs perfectly till lunchtime. During lunch the soft melted varnish runs down and solidifies , locking the armature between the magnet pole-pieces. Then the engine will not turn. If you try to tow-start, you will break something difficult to repair in the magneto drive or the magneto. Your magneto has almost certainly been re-wound with enamelled wire, of which the coating has plasticity to conform to the machine-winding, but will not melt and run. That is in view of the car's history. (Unfortunately, with the mindless export of manufacturing industry to places like China, there have been problems with insulation quality of enamelled copper wire. I hope that is now corrected).

If you can turn the engine over freely with the "armstrong starter", the magneto is likely to be fine. Very rarely the capacitor which is sealed into the armature with the coil may give trouble, and significant work and care will be needed to replace it with a modern substitute, which will be better quality and more compact, and totally reliable. A lot of magneto trouble can be spanner trouble, so it is prudent to get yourself a copy of Dyke's book and learn what you want to do. Nevertheless some of the most knowledgeable antique car people may have difficulty re-mounting a magneto properly timed to the engine, so it is no shame to have that difficulty if you recognise it. Two of Harrah's cars came to Australia for the 1970 Sydney to Melbourne International Veteran and Vintage Car Tour. Bud and Bernice Catlett drove the 1913 66hp Pierce Arrow, and Ray and Sylvia Jesch drove the big cream-coloured Thomas Flyer. ( It was planned that Mr and Mrs Harrah would also tour in the cars, but we were told that they had just suffered an unfortunate interpersonal relationship malfunction, so they did not come. ) Now it seems that the magneto was improperly timed on the Pierce Arrow, and bud had to drive it from Sydney to Canberra on the auxiliary trembler coil ignition. My 1918 Mercer was parked close to it where the cars were parked around the perimeter of Northbourne Oval in Canberra, and I was chatting to him as he was trying to time the magneto properly. Now you can converse while you are working on an antique car, but I gathered that bud was a little unsure of what he was doing. I asked him respectfully if he would like me to help, and he immediately passed the job to me. You always start from first principles, so I set the crankshaft on Top Dead Centre number 1 cylinder by the valves, and explained what I was doing, and why. When I finished he started the Pierce on the trembler coil, and it ran perfectly when he switched to magneto. I was much younger than he was, and I suspect now that bud was just trying to find out what I did and didn't know.

Well, when they drove Harrah's cars back to Sydney to be shipped back home to USA, they planned to take the Prince's Highway, which largely follows the coast. So it was arranged that they should have lunch at my parents' home at Drouin, after looking at my cars and those of my friends. Bud said to me that he was embarrassed that there were three extra people, a lad from Sydney in the Thomas as passenger, and a couple from Santa Rosa, California with their car. They were planning to lunch separately in town ; but I told Bud there would be plenty for everyone, and we would manage perfectly well. There were nine of us in all, including Stuart Middlehurst. There was a big roast leg of lamb perfectly cooked in an oven of the slow combustion stove, and I put extra vegetables in the steamer. Serving up was super-quick and easy, because Bernice, Sylvia, and Martha Helwig did that. When we sat down to eat, little more than half an hour after we stepped in the door, the food had to cool enough to eat. And they seemed surprised that I had been with them all morning, I was the only one home, and I was the cook. Of course, cooking is much as Henry Leland explained to the English when they asked him how it was possible to manufacture automobiles with available spare parts of perfect fit, when Cadillac first won the Dewar Trophy. He said it was "really a very simple process. First you have to decide what you want to do, and how you are going to do it. Then you do it the way you decided".

I hope that helps you Wayne. Do drive, and tour, and show, and enjoy your new outlaw car. But please don't try to outrun a police Model L V8 Lincoln. They are a much more expensive car, and far too quick.

You are obviously a very intelligent and well versed individual. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences.

Wayne

[Guest AlCapone]

Ivan is correct you need to pick up a Dykes manual

was going to try and post some mag info from my 12th edition but there is probably more than 40 pages of it all on different types

and the bonus is it has a large section on continental engines which may help you.[/QUOT

what year is the 12 edition please ? Wayne

[Guest Rp1967]

The last date listed on the title page is 1921

[keiser31]

Here is the Cardway....

[Guest AlCapone]

Here is the Cardway....

Thankyou for the assistance, that was very kind of you.

Wayne

[keiser31]

That is a beautiful car!

[Rusty_OToole]

Ford had a flywheel magneto like a lawn mower or old Villiers 2 stroke motorcycle. Not quite the same thing.

[Guest AlCapone]

That is a beautiful car![/QUO

Thank you for posting the pictures for me and your kind comments. I have had 3 offers to purchase ( 2 from Australia ) since I purchased it a week ago. Each of the cars in my collection are special but this one seems extra special. Besides that my wife loves it also. Wayne

[JACK M]

Shoot, How many out board motors or lawn mowers run on a magneto. They are simple.

[JV Puleo]

A Bosch magneto. They are very well made but, as Ivan pointed out, they can freeze up if the varnish on the armature winding melts. I'm mildly skeptical that your "rebuilt" example is actually rebuilt. That would require a new armature and a new condenser. Very often they've simply been cleaned up. If you go to "The Old Motor" and search on "Magneto" you'll find David Greenlees' excellent article on rebuilding a Bosch dual ignition mag which should give you a good idea what is involved in doing it right. The potential problem is that they often work perfectly until they fail. You can get a good idea of how reliable they are from the fact that most of those in use today are not rebuilt.

[JV Puleo]

Shoot, How many out board motors or lawn mowers run on a magneto. They are simple.

In principal, but Bosch magnetos are hardly simple. In fact, I wrecked an incomplete example to find out how it was put together so I could then make the tools to disassemble them.

[Guest AlCapone]

Is Bosch good or not so good? When do you know if it needs service ? Wayne

[JV Puleo]

They were probably the best. I'd certainly say none were better. As to when they need to be serviced, the only symptom you are likely to encounter is hard starting, which can mean the magnets need to be recharged. But, they also have points that need to be adjusted properly (just like a conventional "points & rotor" system). If the condenser fails they have to be completely dismantled because its buried inside the mechanism. The potential failing that we are cautioning you about is that, if the varnish that insulates the armature melts, it will be working one minute and stuck solid 30 minutes later and that if this happens you can easily damage something much more expensive to repair by forcing it.

I prefer mags to more conventional ignition systems and would always use one if possible. For my own car (1910 Mitchell) I need a generator because I intend to use electric lights. This was a problem because there is no reasonable place to mount one anywhere on the engine or chassis so I made this:

Its a combination generator & distributor with the distributor parts made from a seized Bosch DU4 magneto. These are of much higher quality than the usual distributor parts.

Edited January 21, 2015 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Craig Gillingham]

A lot of American made cars that were sent to Australia in the late 1910's and 1920's were fitted with a magneto. Just about all the Dodge 4's, Chevs, Buicks, Harley-Davidsons, etc that were typically sold in the US with a battery, coil and distributor, were sold in Australia with a magneto conversion. The reason being that garages were few and far between, often very long distances between towns, and vast distances through the outback, to where a battery could be serviced. I think this would be the reason this Cardway was fitted with a magneto, especially if it was sold new in Australia. In 1923, there would have been very few cars, or motorcycles sold in Australia that used a battery ignition.

Looking at the photo of the Cardway magneto, I can tell it's a normal American Bosch DU6 magneto (might be a Liberty, basically the same). They aren't that rare, and complete magnetos and parts pop up for sale regularly. The biggest problem (as far as I can tell), with Bosch magnetos, is that the condenser is mounted within the armature. The armature is made of three parts. If you can get Bosch DU6 magnetos, or parts, they would certainly be handy.

The other thing worth pointing out about magnetos is, that they are really a high precision scientific instrument, originally made to high tolerances. And over time, they slowly deteriorate, windings, magnet magnetism, brushes, etc.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Craig Gillingham (see edit history)