Riviman Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 On a 1966 Riviera, where would the best place to look for the build sheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Henry,The only "confirmed" location I have heard of one being found on a 66 was tucked up under the left side of dash/instrument panel. Perhaps someone that actually found one will chime in. Apparently it was not standard practice for the line workers to put the build sheet in these cars and very few made it in. I personally have never found one in any 66 or 67 I've owned, parts cars included. I've only seen maybe 4 66/67 build sheets that others have found and all but one of those I ran across on for sale listings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 . . . same holds true for '68-'70, I've never seen, or found one for any of these years - they are a very scarce item !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I found that IBM type computer card under the back seat of my 67/ is that the build sheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The build sheet is a white piece of paper 81/2 by 11 with a series of boxes for the variousbuild codes on the car. I've never heard of someone finding a sixties GM car with a computer card init from the factory. What is printed on the card or is it just a bunch of holes on the card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The build sheet is a white piece of paper 81/2 by 11 with a series of boxes for the variousbuild codes on the car. I've never heard of someone finding a sixties GM car with a computer card init from the factory. What is printed on the card or is it just a bunch of holes on the card?The "IBM" card or glovebox card is basically a replication of the original wholesale order form. So, it doesnt have the UPC or build codes which the build sheet has but does have the sales codes used on the original order form...so it basically details the car as it was originally ordered and hopefully built. I have never heard an explanation of the card which makes complete sense to me but it was to be placed in the glovebox of the car before transport and used by the dealer which took delivery as a reference. Perhaps it was documentation as to exactly how the car was built/equipped and it was the dealer`s responsibility to check the vehicle build and confirm the original order? I know there were quality control personnel who performed this task at the factory but maybe this was an additional layer of quality control? Someone once told me it had something to do with warranty but no explanation as to why??I have seen many glovebox cards over the years including one which confirmed an original Super Wildcat only equipped `65 had at some point been converted into a Gran Sport. I suspect the owner was sorry he had asked me to review the card as he was not aware it so thoroughly documented his car. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdminc Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Tom if you have a copy of one of those IBM cards I may be able to shed some light on its Use/Reason to Be. If you have a copy can you send it to me via email. We used IBM cards in GM until the mid 80's for a variety of Data Processing and Production needs, while I was working in a variety of GM Assembly Plants. If I see it I may be able to help.Also, Tom do you think it may be a good time for me to provide a narrative of the Production Order and Scheduling Process used from the 60's until the early 90's. There were some minor variations by Motor Division and Plant, I was very familiar with the process.Rock Ongord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviman Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Thank you all for the input. Very informative! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Yes-on my 'unmolested' '66 as Jason indicates-actually tucked between steering column mount to dash before the bolts were tightened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95Cardinal Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 msdminc wrote: "Tom if you have a copy of one of those IBM cards I may be able to shed some light on its Use/Reason to Be. If you have a copy can you send it to me via email. We used IBM cards in GM until the mid 80's for a variety of Data Processing and Production needs, while I was working in a variety of GM Assembly Plants. If I see it I may be able to help."I agree; I remember those IBM cards in the "cushion room" or the seat assembly area. In several of the assembly plants, the cards were tucked into the springs under the seat cushion. Your IBM card might be the seat option/build card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Yes-on my 'unmolested' '66 as Jason indicates-actually tucked between steering column mount to dash before the bolts were tightenedHi Dan,Is your car Flint built?The build sheets were used in the component assembly areas as well as on the main assembly line. So, a build sheet was used to build the dash at its assembly point and left in the dash assembly when the dash was moved to the assembly line. The build sheets were not deliberately placed in the vehicles but were considered assembly line garbage which was to be removed from the car after assembly was complete. Sometimes the sheets were concealed from sight after car assembly and inadvertently left in the cars. Example locations might be in the dash, under carpeting, stuffed into the seat springs, on top of the gas tank or stuck to the backside of interior panels or exterior sheetmetal like the front fenders. I have found build sheets in all of these locations in `60`s GM cars but have never found a build sheet in a first gen Riv (they do exist). I was told by an individual very involved in the first gen assembly line that extra attention was payed to the first gen cars to remove assembly line garbage from the cars as this was Buick`s flagship model. He was involved specifically with the Riviera model assembly and told me the attention to removing build sheets, etc was much less for the `66 and later models. TomPS I have found two build sheets in `85 models between the headliner and roof. There are quite a few build sheets in the ROA library for `79 thru `85 cars and because they all need headliners at some point I`m sure it is common to find the build sheets in this location.PSS I have dismantled quite a few `66 Wildcat cars and have found from my own experience and others that it is common to find a build sheet on the backside of the lower armrest panel on Kansas City assembled cars. For what it`s worth.... Edited December 31, 2014 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Tom if you have a copy of one of those IBM cards I may be able to shed some light on its Use/Reason to Be. If you have a copy can you send it to me via email. We used IBM cards in GM until the mid 80's for a variety of Data Processing and Production needs, while I was working in a variety of GM Assembly Plants. If I see it I may be able to help.Also, Tom do you think it may be a good time for me to provide a narrative of the Production Order and Scheduling Process used from the 60's until the early 90's. There were some minor variations by Motor Division and Plant, I was very familiar with the process.Rock OngordHi Gordon, I`m sure I have a poor quality copy but not sure if it will scan and post well? Perhaps Rocky can post his and we can play with it. The Camaro guys have already posted a thorough narrative on the subject of assembly. Check out the Camaro research group (?) What years were you involved with GM? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 This is my "IBM" card, from my 67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It says "glove box copy"/ I thought I found it under the back seat, but I could be wrong. I have the Protecto Plate too if anyone's interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdminc Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hi Gordon,What years were you involved with GM? TomThanks for posting the card, I am going to take a look at that IBM 5081 card in more detail. It looks very similar with most of the same data as was used through the mid to late 80's. I was with GM and EDS (a GM Subsidiary) from 77-08 and worked in 3 different GM Assembly Plants from 1977-1993, as a Manufacturing Engineer and Director of IT. Many of the processes and computer programs we used were from the early 60's and were converted to the new IBM technologies as they came along - using build sheets or manifests, and the IBM 5081 cards until they were eliminated in the late 80's. I then worked in GM Powertrain HQ from 93-95. I went to General Motors Institute, starting at 18 right out of high school in the summer of 1977.Incidentally, my father was an engineer for GM Truck and Coach and my grandfather was also an engineer for GM.I will try to find the Camaro narrative. Thank you.Rock Ongord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Here are some more Buick IBM punch cards from 1947-1974, not specific to the Riviera though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Impressive!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Howdy all and Tom-you mean I've been thinking that these Rivs were only built in Flint all these years and you're gonna tell me different?!?!? I think what we call the 'build sheet' was titled like 'production order' sheet and was more like 8 1/2"x 5 1/2". Mine was folded in half and as I said 'trapped' in the left dash. Hay, GM must of early had a bazillion 'IBM' cards made as I see that Steve has an example from a '69 that still had the zone number in Flint-I think we went to zips in about '63. Tom-tomorrow is a new year-January-time to put the scooter away for awhile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Howdy all and Tom-you mean I've been thinking that these Rivs were only built in Flint all these years and you're gonna tell me different?!?!? I think what we call the 'build sheet' was titled like 'production order' sheet and was more like 8 1/2"x 5 1/2". Mine was folded in half and as I said 'trapped' in the left dash. Hay, GM must of early had a bazillion 'IBM' cards made as I see that Steve has an example from a '69 that still had the zone number in Flint-I think we went to zips in about '63. Tom-tomorrow is a new year-January-time to put the scooter away for awhile!Hi Dan, Sorry, when you referred to your `66 I was thinking Wildcat. I was not aware you also own a `66 Riv. I was hoping to establish a trend of build sheets being left in dash assemblies in Flint built cars across model lines. Correct, I believe in `66 they are titled "production order" sheets but most folks know them as build sheets. They are also often called "manifests" as Gordon has described above. I believe the zone numbers are a reference to GM dealer zone numbers, not postal codes, but I honestly never made the connection and have not attempted to connect dealer zone numbers with postal codes. Spent my afternoon off today putting upper control arm bushings in a `66 Wildcat I`m massaging to use for a driver next summer. It was a little nippy at 12-17 above but the sun was shining so I decided to do the job in the driveway. Tomorrow will be a balmy 32 above, good day for a bike ride as long as it stays dry. I wouldnt be able to do that if I lived in your neighborhood! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thanks for posting the card, I am going to take a look at that IBM 5081 card in more detail. It looks very similar with most of the same data as was used through the mid to late 80's. I was with GM and EDS (a GM Subsidiary) from 77-08 and worked in 3 different GM Assembly Plants from 1977-1993, as a Manufacturing Engineer and Director of IT. Many of the processes and computer programs we used were from the early 60's and were converted to the new IBM technologies as they came along - using build sheets or manifests, and the IBM 5081 cards until they were eliminated in the late 80's. I then worked in GM Powertrain HQ from 93-95. I went to General Motors Institute, starting at 18 right out of high school in the summer of 1977.Incidentally, my father was an engineer for GM Truck and Coach and my grandfather was also an engineer for GM.I will try to find the Camaro narrative. Thank you.Rock OngordHi Gordon, Surprised GM was still using punch cards into the `80`s??? I remember using them in a computer programming course about 1978 but I`m sure they were considered obsolete at that time. If you cant find the Camaro info send me a PM. I printed it many years ago but would need to find the copy. I suspect it is still on line somewhere. Happy New Year! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Enjoy....this website contains some fascinating info for anyone curious about GM production processeshttp://camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtmlTom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 This is a quote from the above article which describes the build or "broadcast sheets" as to why they were present at car build and what should have happened to them by the time the car assembly was complete. If you find a build sheet in your car someone didnt clean up after themselves...thank goodness for negligence "By the time the car got to the Final Line there were Broadcast Copies all over it, under it, and inside it, as all the various feeder lines used them too. Each installation point for conveyor-delivered components had a trash barrel to pitch the copy that came taped to the subassembly, and there were several at the end of the Final Line"Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgewood64 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Can anyone tell me what this is? I thought it was a build sheet, but I guess not. I found it behind the rear seat in my 64.hope it's not too smallnick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 From the build sheets that I've seen, this looks to have the same kind of info on it. I'd say it's what's left of one.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Certainly looks like the remnants of some sort of a broadcast or build sheet.I recall getting all excited about finding a build sheet for a mid '70s Pontiac Parisienne I owned, tucked into the springs under the lower rear seat.The excitement ended abruptly, as further investigation revealed a different VIN number on the sheet, but it was a build sheet, albeit for a different Pontiac Parisienne.. . . it was very similar to the remnant Nick posted !! Edited January 8, 2015 by 68RIVGS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Can anyone tell me what this is? I thought it was a build sheet, but I guess not. I found it behind the rear seat in my 64.Production order sheet, if it was complete, it would look like this: Edited January 8, 2015 by sean1997 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgewood64 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Humm... I'm thinking that this was behind the back part of the seat (i.e., where you rest your back), not in the springs of the seat seat. If it were in fact from below the seat, I'd be in yr boat, because I have an armrest back seat that was imported into the car. But I'm pretty sure it was behind the back of the seat. Anyway. I can't make much headway with the numbers etc. Haven't really tried. No VIN on it. The overall dimensions are smaller than the 8.5 x 10 i think s.o. mentioned. more like 3 x 5--for what's left of it...n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 That is what is left of your first gen build sheet, very unusual to find in a first gen car. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgewood64 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Production order sheet, if it was complete, it would look like this:oh, i see. well, then there are no remnants of my VIN on this sheet, only the last couple of digits from the "key number". I guess I'll never know. That's neat. Thanks Sean, I saw this after my other post.nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Don't advertise your key number; a new key can be made from that info. If someone knows where you keep your car, then ?????????Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgewood64 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 interesting, thanks ed. Didn't know it meant that key! Only half the digits on my scrap, anyway. n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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