How Do I Pick the Best Repair Shop for a Prewar Car?

[TexRiv_63]

I have come to the point with my 34 Packard Eight where I need to find a shop to do selected mechanical repair. Depending on a whole lot of variables this may include a radiator repair / recore, engine cooling system cleanout, valve work, piston and ring replacement, brake power assist repair, etc. I would like this car to be a dependable driver able to do tours, but I am NOT looking to RESTORE the car. In the past I have done most of my own work and have considered doing that here but realism is setting in. I have no experience with this type of vehicle and I don't want to start anything I can't finish. The ideal situation would be a local shop with the experience to work on this type of vehicle, willing to work within my limitations and specifications, and possibly do the repairs in segments based on cost. Am I dreaming?

I know of a few possible candidates and I plan to contact local PAC members for any suggestions but have not talked to any shops yet. I have read a lot of horror stories on this and other forums so I am approaching this with concern. I would be interested in your experiences and any advice as to the best method to "audition" a prospective mechanic. Thanks in advance for your help.

[trimacar]

Shame you aren't up in Virginia, I know a great shop up here.....my only advice is talk to customers of shop you're considering and determine reputation....I'd also say that your list of things to do will be $10k to $12k plus before it's over, more if the engine needs serious rebuilding... Good luck, great car....

[West Peterson]

Tom Wilcox, near Austin, might be able to help you. Good friend, who owns an unrestored 1930 Packard, and a freshly restored 1934 coupe roadster, and a 1938 Packard. Does restoration and mechanical.

http://www.restorations120.com/

[TexRiv_63]

Thanks David, the cost of this is one of my concerns. I don't mind paying for the right level of experience but need some checks and balances. Is asking for references from a shop acceptable? Thanks West, I have bookmarked Tom's shop. I am hoping for something closer to home so I can observe progress firsthand but who knows...

I'm going to visit the first shop tomorrow in Dallas, we shall see.

[jackofalltrades70]

Be aware that with most reputable shops, you will not be able to pick and chose what happens, once into the engine components. They will want to do everything correctly and completely. That is how they came about getting their reputation. And, they will not want to warranty any work if not doing everything. Good luck in your search.

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[nickelroadster]

I think you should consider doing it yourself. Do some research and go slowly and it would be good if you could find someone to assist. Remember that only you will care that much about the results. Lot of horror stories out there. These old cars are not that complicated.

[TexRiv_63]

Be aware that with most reputable shops, you will not be able to pick and chose what happens, once into the engine components. They will want to do everything correctly and completely. That is how they came about getting their reputation. And, they will not want to warranty any work if not doing everything./QUOTE]

Ahh, the slippery slope. I would naturally want everything done correctly and completely but only what NEEDS to be done. And once the motor is spread out on the floor how does the owner know if their idea of "everything" is padded?

[TexRiv_63]

I think you should consider doing it yourself. Do some research and go slowly and it would be good if you could find someone to assist. Remember that only you will care that much about the results. Lot of horror stories out there. These old cars are not that complicated.

To be clear, doing it myself is not off the table. I just don't want to get in over my head and wind up with a piece of disassembled garage art.

[edinmass]

Don, the list of repairs you list are very extensive, costly, and take a fair amount of time. We NEVER repair radiators, we flush them or replace them. On any total restoration we don't even bother to check it, it gets a new one. A Packard eight rebuild will run at least 20 grand. Labor to pull the motor, pistons, valves, springs, bearings are just the start. You need to do the carb, starter, generator, distributor, fuel pump.......the list goes on and on. I work on lots of rebuilt engines that are done half ass. They run very poor, overheat, leak, and have a host of other problems. Most of the time we just end up doing the job over for the customer. Good shops are busy with pre war cars. Very good shops have a waiting list that can be very long. Restoration is getting much more expensive than just 10 years ago. The comment on the shop repairs to what they think is necessary is also very correct. We turned away a Packard 12 rebuild as the customer who had no idea of early cars was demanding we do it his way. The answer was for him to take it away. I can't imagine you can fix your car for anything less than 25 grand. Money just doesn't go far today when doing things correctly. I agree to use a shop that works mostly on pre war. Ask this question...... does the shop owner have a CCCA classic himself? Or does he have a 68 MGB. It will give you your answer on if you are in the right place. I'm a Pierce guy, my restorer has three of his own. We speak the same language. I had a car several years ago in a similar condition as yours. It was my favorite car, a sedan..... it was going to take 5 years and huge money to get it right again, no restore.... just repair. I decided to send it to a museum and only use it for a few hundred miles per year. Ended up selling it a short time later. It probably was for the best. Too many shops can do good work but have no passion or ability to deal with the small important details that the early cars require. I see lots of CCCA trailer queens that look great but run and drive like dirt. Good luck in your quest. Ed

[motoringicons]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this one. I am not a professional restorer nor am I in the restoration business, but I have worked on a lot of prewar cars ranging from brass era to large Full Classics, including Packard Eights. I have rebuilt more than a few engines myself, including Packard Eights, which I have toured with for 1000s of miles and they continued to run successfully after they left my ownership.

I can totally understand why a professional shop can and will charge in excess of 25K to rebuild one of these. It is very labor intensive. However, I'm going to throw the gauntlet down and say it isn't complicated to rebuild one of these yourself. (I'll get a lot of flack on this statement, to be sure!!!). Your car is running and driving now, so the odds of the engine being totally junk is extremely rare. My guess is the engine is really solid, but just needs the typical parts replaced that have been moving around for the last 80 years. Also, Packard Eights are super solid and bullet proof engines. There are a lot of them out there and a lot of them have been rebuilt by a lot of people, so there is NO mystery to them.

-Take the engine out of the car. Yes, this takes a lot of time and is dirty work, but its just nuts and bolts. Keep everything organized, label and take pictures. Don't disassemble the smaller accessories such as carb, starter, etc until you are ready to work on them.

-Take the engine apart and see what's going on in there. Bad pistons, rings, valves, lifters, oil pump, etc? All these parts are readily available new for Packards. Try the usual supply houses such as Egge, Jahns, etc. The cost to buy these parts isn't real expensive. IF the engine block is super cruddy, you can take it to any local engine builder or chemical cleaning shop to have boiled out. If the bearing needs to be replaced, replace them, etc. Crank or cam need to be reground? This can be done by most competent machine shops but they could be OK as well. (Learn to use a micrometer and other measuring tools. It's a handy skill to have for the future!) It is far cheaper to pay individual shops to do small, specialized jobs with you doing the grunt work than it is to pay a rebuilder or restoration shop 55-75.00 an hour to do the grunt work for you. Restoration shops spend a lot of time taking parts to and from specialty shops as well, and understandably must charge you for these time consuming services.

-Re-assemble the engine using the new parts. It takes a lot of time to make sure everything fits right, but it is just time, not rocket science. Check and double check is the secret to success.

-Rebuild the small accessory parts once the engine is done. Starters and generators typically should be sent out, carburetors and distributors for these cars are relatively simple assuming the main parts are in good condition.

-Ask a lot of questions. There is certainly a wealth of valuable and free knowledge here and on other websites. Maybe there is even someone local than has worked on early engines and can be your mentor?

-Putting the engine back in the car is just more labor and more nuts and bolts if you took it out in an organized manner.

If you have no time to do a job like this, it is best to send it out. However, restoration shops take a lot of time as well, and, many of them do not keep to their promised deadlines. If you have time on your hands, why not give it a try? The advantage of doing it yourself is knowing EXACTLY what was or wasn't done to the engine. I have seen a lot of "professionally rebuilt" engines fail because the rebuilder cut costs, hurried to assemble it due to other commitments, misled the client, or used old parts instead of the new parts that were supposed to be used. Unlike paint or upholstery work, you really can't inspect someone's engine rebuild.

The same logic applies to brakes and other parts as well....

You'll also become real intimate with the car and you'll be able to fix things a lot easier down the road, or on the road. The best part about doing it yourself is the sense of accomplishment and knowing that when someone else on this forum posts a question about Packard Eight problems, you'll be able to help them!

I've always admired your 1934 sedan. It is a great car and so well preserved, you are certainly fortunate to own such a neat car. Get it on the road and enjoy it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

You are glossing over a few minor details. What about removing and reattaching those pesky crankshaft counter weights so the crank can be ground ? How about those babbitt bearings? Who will you trust to do the align boring or the machine work if you choose to convert to inserts? Don't forget those riveted together roller cam followers. Is the harmonic balancer ok or does it need revulcanizing? Do you want it pretty? Sure, anyone with patience can learn to rebuild this engine but it isn't as simple as some would have you believe. Depending on where you are it might not cost $20k but you won't get it done for $5k even if you do all the "grunt" work and reassembly yourself.

[rusty12]

So if the outsourced parts and labor total 8K, or even 10K that is still a lot cheaper than 20K in my books. Also, once you take the car apart, you might luck out and find that it does not need as much as you might think, which, considering it is running and driving now, could likely be the case.

If time is of essence and money is no object, I would send the car to a professional restorer/rebuilder. If money is a consideration and you have the time, patience, and willingness to learn, why not give it a try? You're not going to hurt anything and you might learn a lot in the process. I've fixed a lot of things on my cars that I did not know anything about.

I say "go for it"!!!

Edited February 21, 2014 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

One more thing to remember. These simple flat head engines never get used or driven hard.......it's just an old car. Just assemble the motor. It will be fine. I forgot..... of the last 5 engines in the shop, three were do overs from other professional shops that blew up in less than 100 miles. Yup they would have got you on and off the show field, but they won't run down the road for 500 miles in one day. Thats why all the best engine builders have more work than they can handle. If you want a Pierce motor done at the shop I work with, the wait is more than two years..... if you can get in. One of the most talanted brass engine shops I know of only works for a few select customers.... he will never run out of work. There ARE many talanted people out there, but most of them are VERY busy. Todays machine shops just don't understand pre war engines. Workmanship is so poor in most machine shops today we just keep buying our own equipment so we arn't dependant on anothers work. Lots of the repro part suppliers sell junk... poor quaility parts. Pistons that fail, valves that are too soft, springs that are not the right rate......the problems are endless. A "famous" engine builder from another state bid a engine to a customer then found out that the motor has babbit bearings and the cam bearings were also poured. He cut corners to try and get the job done. When the motor arrived at the shop doing the coachwork they refused to install it. The stories are endless. Take your time, do it right, and it will turn out fine. It's just going to coas a lot more than you think it should. I wish you the best of luck with your project. Ed

[TexRiv_63]

I visited my first shop today, a small place in Dallas. I have actually known the owner and only mechanic since he helped me with advice on the 32 Cadillac I used to have. He specializes in Rolls Royces but has longtime prewar car experience including Pebble Beach restorations. It was an interesting conversation and touched on some of the comments in this thread. He made it clear that handing the car to an experienced restoration shop would result in ridiculous cost because they will not just do small repairs that may result in harm to their reputation, as Matt and Ed have touched on. Also, realistically, they do not want to take time away from high dollar clients to do a low-buck repair job. He could not recommend any shop in the area that could do the type of piecework I need.

But as we continued to talk he asked why I didn't want to work on it myself. I told him I was a little scared of it because of my lack of hands-on experience. He laughed and said while the Packard engine was well engineered, it's a very simple design and easy to work on, similar to Nickleroadster, Motoringicons and Rusty12.

Maybe I haven't made my car's condition clear. The most immediate problem is one cylinder with no compression, its running on 7. I recently realized it has been running on 7 since I bought it but because the straight 8 runs so smoothly neither I nor a number of car guys I have taken for rides noticed. I find it hard to believe this engine would need a 20K rebuild.

[edinmass]

Don, I would take another path to fixing the car. Much less expensive, much less time, and a process you can do yourself. I rather not post it here, give me a call, I'm in the PAS and CCCA directory. Use the 413-530-xxxx number any time eastern from 8 am to 10 pm. I'm sure I can help you get the car to where you would like it and not bust the budget. Ed.

[Johan Boltendal]

My first action would be finding out why the compression is low, do a leak test and there you are. Most likely a burnt or carbon fouled valve only, head off repair and done.

A holed piston, broken rings or the like, would burn gallons of oil and smoke the neighborhoud

Why talk off engines out, complete overhaul Multi dollar undertaking if it's most likely only a valve issue. Perhaps you consider how your car stayed in the condition it is Today

most likely nort by taking it completely apart when ever a small issue surfaced. Botom line: address the problem (any problem btw) accuratly before taking off on massive rebuilds.

You can be sure if you take it apart everything will be needed, it's 80years old isn't it. Please make the right decision, for your sake and the cars, Johan

[edinmass]

Johan is correct. Figure out what is wrong, then make a plan to fix it. My offer still stands.... give me a call. Ed

[TexRiv_63]

Don, I would take another path to fixing the car. Much less expensive, much less time, and a process you can do yourself. I rather not post it here, give me a call, I'm in the PAS and CCCA directory. Use the 413-530-xxxx number any time eastern from 8 am to 10 pm. I'm sure I can help you get the car to where you would like it and not bust the budget. Ed.

Ed, thanks for your time and a good discussion about old car realities. I am definitely a believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[TexRiv_63]

My first action would be finding out why the compression is low, do a leak test and there you are. Most likely a burnt or carbon fouled valve only, head off repair and done.

A holed piston, broken rings or the like, would burn gallons of oil and smoke the neighborhoud

Why talk off engines out, complete overhaul Multi dollar undertaking if it's most likely only a valve issue. Perhaps you consider how your car stayed in the condition it is Today

most likely nort by taking it completely apart when ever a small issue surfaced. Botom line: address the problem (any problem btw) accuratly before taking off on massive rebuilds.

You can be sure if you take it apart everything will be needed, it's 80years old isn't it. Please make the right decision, for your sake and the cars, Johan

Johan, it is good to hear from you again and I totally agree. There will be no massive rebuild here unless much bigger problems are uncovered. I will be pulling the head myself and hoping for a simple fix then we'll see about other issues down the road. Did you ever finish your Cadillac?

[Johan Boltendal]

Good to read your reply, curious what you will find in the end.

Ready and driven regularly, what a difference this is , between my '30 and this '32. So much improvement overall, this '32 . Amazing,

greetings Johan

[Restorer32]

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" or as my Son says "if it ain't broke fix it 'til it is". Always interesting to open up an engine and see what you find. Hopefully it's as simple as a stuck valve or broken valve spring.

[Marty Roth]

Don,

If you want a trustworthy shop to work with you, and to do a first-rate job on only what needs to be done, I can personally recommend Greg Cunningham at the Honest Charlie Garage - part of Coker Tire in Chattanooga, TN. Greg is Corky's son-in-law, and personally oversaw the work on my '30 Packard after the Glidden last fall. I was delighted with everything about the experience -

Great folks to work with, and very fair prices!!

Edited March 1, 2014 by Marty Roth
spelling (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Thanks Marty, what kind of work did they do to your car?

[Rusty_OToole]

Red Green says "If it ain't broke, you're not trying" lol motto of the amateur restorer.

[Trulyvintage]

In Pennsylvania ...

Last Chance Garage in Unionville, PA

I did a story on Lou about a year ago ....

@ http://forums.aaca.org/f169/1936-oldsmobile-ir-n-e-du-347732.html

Jim

[Marty Roth]

Thanks Marty, what kind of work did they do to your car?

Hi Don,

Wednesday morning of the Glidden they did a proper adjustment on my Packard's brakes (all 4 wheels and handbrake).

On the last day of the Glidden, My engine fan hub broke and sent a blade flying, but no damage to radiator or hood. I left the car and returned with a spare from home. They removed the headlights and headlight bar, then the radiator to replace the fan (not enough space to pull bolts without this removal), then adjusted the timing advance to correct specs.

Next they balanced all six wheels/tires after determining work involved to true the spoke wheels.

Next step was to remove the dash and to re-do the WOOD GRAIN, and to re-install the dash -- ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL AND CORRECT WORK !!

Greg Cunningham runs the shop at Honest Charlie Garage, and Corky Coker also touched base with me during the work./..

I could not be happier with the quality and their pricing - first rate people and first rate quality !!!

What work do you need done?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[Guest Brando & Joanne]

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[Guest Brando & Joanne]

Brando Pistorius in Tampa, FL specializes in pre-war cars. Excellent word and attention to detail, and is happy to do as much or as little as you want to do. 813-917-9205

[herm111]

Ship your engine to J and M Machine, in Southborough, Ma.

They re build every kind of engine you can think of.

If you are looking for cheap, don't bother.

But if you want it right, and a fair price, for all that they do, give them a call.

It's Mike, and John at 508-460-0733.

Ask a bunch of Questions!

There web site is J & M Machine, that will get you there. You can see all the machines, pistures, and videos.

If they weren't the best, I wouldn't , I wouldn't put my name on them.

[R Walling]

  I have rebuilt a few 50 and 60's engines but I am not an expert.

 

 All that I have to offer is that when I first started going to junk yards there were pistons and valves (even head gaskets) all round on the shelves. Not complete sets mind you, but only what was left over after Mr. Neighbor (not a rocket scientist) went in and bought what he needed to get his car running.

 

 The repairs usually kept the cars running at a time when new parts were not available.

 

 Of course, they drove them carefully , usually at speeds under 50 mph. Your driving habits will determine what you need to do in order to obtain your desires. (ie, if you only replace one piston that has a hole in it, it will run much better than it did!)