BearsFan315 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Lahti35 said: Can you jump it with some battery charging cables direct to the starter and frame to eliminate everything in between? If it were my car I'd try that to eliminate the starter itself as it sits installed. the starter is connected directly from battery positive to starter 00 new cable, then battery negative to frame rail 00 cable, starter is bolted to trans/engine housing which is connected directly to frame rail, bare metal connections. on motor mounts, no rubber, no paint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 hour ago, BearsFan315 said: the starter is connected directly from battery positive to starter 00 new cable, then battery negative to frame rail 00 cable, starter is bolted to trans/engine housing which is connected directly to frame rail, bare metal connections. on motor mounts, no rubber, no paint. So no switch in the circuit now? Good. A switch made of plastic that is capable of melting like that is not good enough, period. Also, the fact that it overheated indicates resistance that would have severely interfered with cranking even if the switch had been made of something that wouldn't melt. Are any other spots in the circuit getting really hot? One more test you could make is to measure the battery voltage while cranking, probes right on the posts, and then measure the voltage at the starter, also while cranking, probes on the case and the center of the positive lug of the starter. See how much difference there is between the two readings. Unfortunately it still wont tell you everything you need to know, but it's a start. It will be interesting to see how the load test on the battery comes out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share Posted April 5, 2022 took battery to get load tested, unfortunately no one locally can load test a 6v battery, everyone has the new auto testers that only do 12v. me and the guy played with the system and no where could you change it to 6v, so the battery would not load test because voltage was too low. did try the battery back in the car, still can NOT spin the engine with plugs in it. if i jump it with a 12v then it will kick and spin over. going to get a new 12v battery this week. and try again. was able to prime the fuel pump, but took several rounds of 10 cycling (6v battery ONLY and no plugs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 2 hours ago, BearsFan315 said: did try the battery back in the car, still can NOT spin the engine with plugs in it. if i jump it with a 12v then it will kick and spin over How fast did it spin on 12v with plugs installed? All of the old 6v cars I have done that to in the last 50 years spun extremely fast. I hope you have better luck than a younger local guy with his 29 chevy. He bought a lower mileage "formerly rebuilt" engine with no starter, the seller later let him borrow a starter that was said to be a very good one from another running 29-31 car he had, but it would not spin fast enough on 12v to start the engine. I just don't recall how the engine felt with a hand crank with plugs in. Then the seller told them to try shimming the starter every which way, that did help a lot, but still wouldn't quite spin fast enough to start with one good 12v battery jumped with booster cables to a running 12v car. Definitely sounded like starter was binding a lot. The starter got hot, too. Before shimming, the starter barely budged the engine on 12v with plugs in. They then wondered if there was some difference in starter drive gear sizes. They gave up and it's all sitting out in the woods at my place, rotting away for 5 years. I only wrote this because you already burned up the battery shut off switch, and also you bought a repro starter gear unit. Either the engine is far too tight, or the starter is not meshing correctly? Didn't you own another Chevy that you could try swapping starters with? Maybe I'm thinking of somebody else on here with 2 chevys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Any bolts that may be contacting the flywheel or any other moving parts that may interfere? Any drive line parts that bolt up to the flywheel that may be binding? Just throwing that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 With no plugs in it, put your hand crank in it and try turning it over to see how tight it is. You should be able to turn it over with just a moderate amount of drag with a new motor. If the engine shop used plasti-gauge to set the bearings, there’s a good chance it’s too tight. The Babbitt is too soft to use Plasti-gauge and it crushes into the Babbitt rather than flattening out the PG to be correctly measured. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 tinkered with the car some last night, mainly on spinning the engine over. note that the 1930 is NOT home currently, it is actually out in Texas on Display at a Trade Show. It is being used for a NEWly formed Company as part of a promotion campaign, it will be featured on the company's NEW t-shirts to promote the company on to the 1929 remember all is relative, and relative in to how I perceive it had the battery load tested and it passed, but said it was in last quarter of its life. battery code date is 07/14 (Optima Red Top 3 Year) spinning it by hand with plugs in it is a little harder than spinning the 1930 with 1000 miles on it, you know when you hit a compression stroke on any cylinder, especially if spinning slowly. took the starter OFF tore it apart, made sure everything moved freely, was lubed up, and brushes seated and were free to move with armature spun up starter on bench with (1) 6v battery, it spins up steadily, not an instant torque and spin. (2)12v battery, spins up fast and hard, way faster on torque end installed starter back on car with plugs installed and attempted to spin up (1) 6v will spin engine till it hits compression stroke, which is not even a quarter or so turn, can NOT spin it past a compression stroke (2) 12v will attempt to spin engine but bendix gets stuck out and stops, tried various shim thicknesses and the same results. have to loosen starter to get bendix back in to try again. strange thing is that with the plugs removed the 6v battery can spin over engine slowly, and bendix never gets stuck ?! maybe it is not kicking it out hard enough ? as noted i was able to slowly prime the fuel pump and carb via this method. took about 4-5 cycles of 10 seconds each to get the fuel pump full of fuel. remember New fuel line so has to pump from tank through line to bowl Ordering a NEW Optima 6v Red Top today, should be here tomorrow. NO ONE Locally within 25 miles says they have one in stock, called everyone around. 2 Local Parts store can have one to me next day. rest say approx 5-7 days, probably drop shipping from manufacturer. either way i will check the Production Date to validate when it was made. Easy to do on an Optima ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 On 4/5/2022 at 8:32 PM, chistech said: With no plugs in it, put your hand crank in it and try turning it over to see how tight it is. You should be able to turn it over with just a moderate amount of drag with a new motor. If the engine shop used plasti-gauge to set the bearings, there’s a good chance it’s too tight. The Babbitt is too soft to use Plasti-gauge and it crushes into the Babbitt rather than flattening out the PG to be correctly measured. With out plugs i can spin it up, it does get harder when you hit compression on any cylinder, but i expect that. they shop that did hte work, has done a ton of older engines, and pretty familiar with these older Chevrolet straight 6. Seemed to know what he was talking about and doing. I Hope, but we all KNOW !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 You can spin it with a crank or the starter? A starter has a lot of torque. Your hand crank will let you feel the tightness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 26 minutes ago, chistech said: You can spin it with a crank or the starter? A starter has a lot of torque. Your hand crank will let you feel the tightness. It seems like he used the hand crank because he said "it gets harder when you hit compression" Trying to explain just how free, or how tight an engine feels over the internet is frustrating. Then it's more complicated when trying to use a hand crank with new engine rebuild, new rings, etc. They would feel a lot stiffer than a well-used engine. With a used engine, you could feel the engine try to move backwards as you came up on compression and then let the handcrank back off. On a new engine, you likely won't feel that backwards movement. I sure don't understand why his starter was stuck to the flywheel on just 12v, but not on 6v. Makes no sense? However, it seems like the gears are not meshing correctly with the 2 clues; 1: the engine won't spin correctly, and 2: the gear got stuck? This might be a tough one to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 3 hours ago, chistech said: You can spin it with a crank or the starter? A starter has a lot of torque. Your hand crank will let you feel the tightness. both without spark plugs only by hand with spark plugs (starter on 12v) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 I did compare the old to new bendix, same mesh pattern, same teeth number, etc.. same od, id, length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Jerry, did this engine get new mains and line bored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 8, 2022 Author Share Posted April 8, 2022 21 hours ago, chistech said: Jerry, did this engine get new mains and line bored? yes, all new main babbitt & rod babbitt done by Paul's Rod & Bearing. The engine shop did the line bore and scraping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 The reason I ask is I hope they got the line boring correct and not to high in the upper mains. That would cause the starter to bind. The motor my 31’ originally came with was supposed to be all redone. I found the rear main had .008 instead the 2-3 it’s supposed to have. When I pulled the shims, the motor would no longer turn over almost at all and the bendix would stick to the ring gear. I hope they got it right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 13, 2022 Author Share Posted April 13, 2022 messed with the car a bit this weekend... got in the NEW optima 6v, did a test and same issue on the car as the other. went through and double checked the timing and settings, reset the valves cold. did a few test Chipper recommended, i have a strong snappy spark, easily jumps and snaps 1/4" + gap with a strong blue flame. **POP** also pulled plugs and spun over engine to validate plugs were firing and sparking. so know i have FUEL to Carb, FIRE at the Plugs, and Air all around. installed the battery and would kick the engine about a quarter turn and stop at a compression. so i set up the riding mower 12v 525CA battery with some jumper cables and ran it in parallel with the 6v, only connected it when i hit the starter and disconnected as soon as i stopped. engine would spin over and rotated with plugs, etc... so made sure had fuel in carb, timing rough set and tried to fire it up, nothing. tinkered for a few hours, no avail. went out monday evening and tuesday evening tinkered around, same ordeal. about an hour or two each time. this morning went out and went over everything one more time, and then connected batteries, and after about half hour, the engine actually kicked and sputtered for a brief second. waiting a few seconds then hit it again, and tried to fire, once more and it started up, ran for about 10-15 seconds then died off. unfortunately had to pack it in and head to work. so i know it will now fire and everything is really close. figure if i can get it to fire and run, let it run for a short time and warm up and set in. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 keep updating, for those of us wondering why the starter is unable to turn it over on 6v. Maybe it will get better if you can keep running it, we hope. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 14, 2022 Author Share Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) unfortunately did not have any time to work on the car last night, had an update meeting for hte upcoming AACA Grand Nationals... trying to get all the ducks in a row as the meet is about 30 days out !! did have some time this morning to go out and tinker. i put in the 6v battery (was on tender all night), turned the key, hit the accelerator pedal a few times, and then hit hte starter switch. it turned about a quarter turn and stopped (compression). grabbed the 12v off the tender, jumped it over to the 6v, hit the starter and fired right up. rand for a minute or two, died when i tried to accelerate the then engine slowly. know timing and all is NOT perfect. hit hte starter and fired right back up. let it idle for a few minutes and get up to temp. smell the paint, oil, and lube burning off and out the engine. short video of this here: wondering if my rebuilt oil pump is working: Edited April 14, 2022 by BearsFan315 embedded YouTube videos (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 14, 2022 Author Share Posted April 14, 2022 after warmup went in and adjusted the valves, tried the 6v alone but it can not spin through a compression stroke, jumped the 12v and fired right up. If i have time tonight will fire it back up and tweak the tuning some, get it in a happy place. timing was rough set per VCCA info: Points: .018" Spark Plug Gap: .040" Timing: 18 DEG BTDC Float Level: .75" I will also hook it up to my old school meter, and see what the RPM and Dwell are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 18 minutes ago, BearsFan315 said: Timing: 18 DEG BTDC Is that "static timing"??? "Static timed" meaning that if you used a test light on the dist side of coil, then slowly come up on number one compression stroke with hand crank while watching the timing mark, then the light comes on when the points trigger the coil to fire. I've never seen any engine static timed that high. It would kick like a mule especially warmed up. I'd try pulling the coil wire out after it's been warmed up, then see if it still stops turning when it hits the compression stroke. (or static time it to barely past TDC) . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary W Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 If I'm reading your post correctly, it seems like the timing is too advanced when you are attempting to start it. Retard it a bit and crank the engine again. It should move through that compression stroke. 18 degrees BTC sounds good when fully advanced and running, but not when trying to start. Your spark is firing while the piston is still on the way up. The starter motor will never win that battle. I had my timing too advanced in my Buick and was experiencing the same issue. Following along! Good Luck and keep up the great work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 Jerry, use the original timing specs with a new motor which is 12d btdc. Then when you pull the retard cable you be much closer to TDC which will be easier to start. I still don’t run my newly rebuilt motor at 18 because my motor won’t turn over even when retarded. Forget the recommended settings on bill barkers site until the motor has at least 2000 miles on it. Every motor I’ve redone for customers have been unwilling to start or even run well on the 18d btdc. I always have to bring them back closer to original specs to run and start well. I cannot get a fresh motor to perform well on the updated specs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Perkins / Mn Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 4 hours ago, Gary W said: If I'm reading your post correctly, it seems like the timing is too advanced when you are attempting to start it. Exactly my issue with starting my 1913 Model T after taking up the rod and main shims. I cleaned all connections (again), added an extra ground strap from motor to frame AND retarded the timing. Bingo, the car spins right over (6v) and started right up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 23 hours ago, F&J said: Is that "static timing"??? "Static timed" meaning that if you used a test light on the dist side of coil, then slowly come up on number one compression stroke with hand crank while watching the timing mark, then the light comes on when the points trigger the coil to fire. I've never seen any engine static timed that high. It would kick like a mule especially warmed up. I'd try pulling the coil wire out after it's been warmed up, then see if it still stops turning when it hits the compression stroke. (or static time it to barely past TDC) . This is how i have set several of these 194 inline 6 set the point in the window so that the U|C mark on the flywheel it lined up, when number one is at compression stroke, set the distributor to point to number one plug (screw on the distributor housing for reference) line up oil pump to distributor, and seat distributor fully, rotate distributor to points fully open, set points to .018", then install cap, sires, plugs, etc... rotate distributor slightly counterclockwise so that the Grease Cup is about 1/2" - 3/4" or so from the engine block. works like a charm every time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 decided i was going to do a test... last night i dropped in the NEW 6v Optima and hit the accelerator a few times, and hit the starter button, car spun over and fired up, slow idle then settled in once warmed up. went out this morning, and decided to try the OLD 6v Optima, it spun quarter turn and stopped, i hit it again and spun around slowly, then car fired off and was running. let the car idle and warm up a bit. then adjusted the idle down and settled in around 350 RPM or so per my meter. still ahs a slight hesitation if you hit the accelerator, but will work that out when i have time to tinker more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 tinkered with the idle and got it around 350ish slight hesitation on rev up there is a whining, sounds like the water pump or maybe the generator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 2, 2022 Author Share Posted May 2, 2022 got some free time this weekend, and went through and reset & adjusted the brake system ensured everything was secure and decided to take it out for initial drive around the block. drive went well, rode fine, accelerated and braked nicely. One thing i noticed was as the engine revved up there was air in the coolant. hoping it was an air pocket, but it never went away. only drove about a 1/2 mile or so around the block. when i got home check gauges and used my temp gun, everything was in range. i shot a small video of the issue, at idle seems to be fine, but when revved up or running you can clearly see the air bubbles !! and at higher revs ay 1200 - 1500 looks like carbonated water !! also the whine is easily heard and increases with the revs of hte engine. used my stethoscope and seems like it is coming from the water pump, this is a Brand New out of the Box water pump, bearing type. i went back over the engine, tightened all the hose clamps, retorqued the head, it has been through several dozen heat cycles. and still issue persist. i plan to remove the drive belt and see if the whine goes away. wondering IF they air could be sneaking in past the water pump shaft/seal ? there are no visible traces of coolant leaking anywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 Jerry, my olds will do the same thing. I found when the radiator is at its proper operating level, the water pump will pull more than the radiator can flow and will allow the tops of the tubes to open to air causing air to be sucked down the tubes and through the engine. It’s that process you’re seeing. If you have a legit compression leak it would show air at idle or even just over. The big bubbles are because all of a sudden the top of the core gets exposed causing a big gulp of air and the big bubble. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 3, 2022 Author Share Posted May 3, 2022 10 hours ago, chistech said: Jerry, my olds will do the same thing. I found when the radiator is at its proper operating level, the water pump will pull more than the radiator can flow and will allow the tops of the tubes to open to air causing air to be sucked down the tubes and through the engine. It’s that process you’re seeing. If you have a legit compression leak it would show air at idle or even just over. The big bubbles are because all of a sudden the top of the core gets exposed causing a big gulp of air and the big bubble. Tubes ?? are you referring to tubes in the radiator ?? Chevrolet honeycomb does not have tubes in it ? outside the overflow tube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted May 4, 2022 Share Posted May 4, 2022 13 hours ago, BearsFan315 said: Tubes ?? are you referring to tubes in the radiator ?? Chevrolet honeycomb does not have tubes in it ? outside the overflow tube Okay, sorry for the technical snafu, 😁, the core gets exposed and sucks a little air and it gets pulled through the motor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 4, 2022 Author Share Posted May 4, 2022 went out and removed the generator and drive belt and ran the engine for a few minutes. the whine is there, so it is NOT the water pump NOR the generator. sounds like it is coming from the front end, trying to track it down with my mechoscope (mechanics stethoscope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted May 4, 2022 Share Posted May 4, 2022 Could it be whine from the timing gears? Didn't you put in a new gear? Maybe it needs to break in? I'm sure you will get it figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 6, 2022 Author Share Posted May 6, 2022 On 5/4/2022 at 3:21 PM, Laughing Coyote said: Could it be whine from the timing gears? Didn't you put in a new gear? Maybe it needs to break in? I'm sure you will get it figured out. that seems to be the consensus, new timing gear whine. plus it is a NEW Aluminum gear vs a NEW Crank Gear. so they need to hang out and work a little together 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 finally had some time this weekend to get back to putting my 1929 together. I have been engulfed with the AACA Grand Nationals our Region recently hosted. Was a superb show !! working on closing that out and getting focused back on other things. started to put together the front end. stanchions, headlamp bar, headlamps, etc... basically have to put it all together loosely then line everything up and tighten them down. slow and tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) next up was the front bumper and my turn signals bolting everything together and lining it all up then go back to tighten the bumper bolts down. the left side would jump skip and spin when i tried to torque it, then it hit me, the frame threads were stripped when i got it. so i ended up getting a thread insert (helicoil style) kit. drilled out he threads, screwed in insert, broke off tab, put on bumper, threaded in bolt, and bam like a charm !! worked great, was able to torque it down and not issues. tested out my signals and they both are working and function correctly. wired up the headlamps and tested those out. everything seems to work and look correctly now. Edited May 31, 2022 by BearsFan315 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 fired up the engine, as it has been sitting for a while, pumped hte accelerator a few times, a little choke, and fired up after a few tries... warmed up and idled nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 decided to tinker with the tail light & stop light, I have an original style on the car 2 bulbs, but also built and LED version using the Lambert LED kit. So i decided to run a few test on various bulbs, Incandescent & LED to see how they work and how bright they are in my garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 Incandescent Bulb #63 Tail Lamp (Parking) #87 Brake Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 LED #78845 Tail Lamp (Park ON) 1-2 #84776 Brake Light 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 LED #687985 Tail Lamp (Park ON) 1-2 #978696 Brake Light 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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