JustDave Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 HELLOYEARS BACK WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER I HELPED AN OLD MAN WORK ON HIS 1911 PREMIERE,IM JUST WONDERING,RT HAND DRIVE LARGE VEHICLE 4 CYL ETC,IM SURE THERES A PREMIER SPECIALIST ON THE FORUM THAT COULD TELL FOR SUREGAS L;IGHTS WOULD ALSO TELL ME EARLY,POSSIBLY PEMIER 1910 1911, DAVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I don't think the traverse rear spring is after market , only because of the end clamps appear to have been cast together with the side rear springs. Could be wrong but it appears to have been cast as one unit. What do you think? I'm really new to all of this detective work but its sure fun Ha Ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Do we know the wheelbase? The only car that comes to mind with the odd front spindles is Middleby, and that had a 122 inch wheelbase on the 40 HP model . Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) Just to further confuse the issue - sometimes that transverse rear spring was an aftermarket add-on. I found a 1906 Buick that needed restoring, that had such a spring. It didn't come that way from the factory.Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJThe rear spring system isn't aftermarket in this one. With the cross member that holds the transverse spring appearing to be a factory riveted in piece, I would say that system is original. Edited December 1, 2012 by carlisle1926 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) I have to Agree that those front spindles are unusual, and a valuable give away clue. By the brake peddle, the photo of the bracket on the outside of the frame is the shiftgate and parking brake lever. The parking brake lever would have been to the outside and a ratchet plate would have been between the two bolt holes. This is what is refered to as an, "outboard shifter" The handles were most likely brass and taken for scrap. With most of these early cars, The Foot peddle operated the outer Brake bands, and the hand brake operated the inner brakes. When you are back there again, Measure the Clincher rim to get a rough tire size. This may be another clue. Dandy Dave! Edited December 1, 2012 by Dandy Dave (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 It may take some time to find a rust free nut or bolt, but when you do measure it to see if it is metric. This way you may find out if it is European or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 This one kind of reminds me of a 1909 Corbin made in Conn. I believe. They were high end back in the day. They had the friction shocks, three spring arrangement in the rear and a massive differential. The front fenders look different however. Just a thought.Good luck in your search! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Here is a link to the Corbin. corbin | Search Results | The Old Motor Fenders are wrong, exhaust is wrong. Front spindles look wrong also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan at larescorp Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Could it be a 1913 locomobile? Here is a pic from the web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The size car we are looking for is that size,,But no cigar,,Yes Loco used full floating axle,,,BUTdid not use the Platform Spring arrangement,,,always 3/4 eleptic Rolls used Platform spring in '07-08,,but was 6cylThe tie rod was behind the axle,not in front,,,this is a major thing that will help us identify this carThe BIG 4cyl Locos were chain drive until '10Packard [430cid] had the tranny on the rear axle,,1904-1914Most cars were rhd til around '14 Some cars had a choice in '13The " Reverse Eliot"" front end spindles were not rare I think,,Loco used them later on,,cant recall year,,Mercedes used them from early chain drive era,,Does anyone recall the features of '08-'11 MarmonTag,,youre IT,,,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) Wow. I really enjoy the detective work. Its really neat observing the observations and clues found. I noticed that the cross member holding the radiator on the locomobile is more angled compared to the curve on the unidentified chasis. There is no cross member between lights, front reverse eliot spindles appear different. the old chasis's also has a unique gap in them. Exhaust on loco does not extend past rear, and has two fender brackets on front fenders. Both use two traverse rods under rear end. I've also noticed the bracket for the hand crank has flanges for additional strength whereas a lot of cars are simply casted round. Good Hunting! Edited December 3, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Woodfiddler,No idea what make the car is but could mention that Rolls-Royce and Peerless both used a three-spring arrangement like that, circa 1912. My first thought when I saw the photos of this chassis was that it was a Chalmers, because of the transaxle, which rules out the Peerless.----Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Rolls does not seem to use tie rod in front of axle on pictures I looked at. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodfiddler Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The fender(s) are billed, right? Though just about rusted off the passenger side, and gone from the drivers side. The the headlamp mounting yokes are outside frame mounted. So.... more searching....Thanks Jeff for the insight.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 No idea what make the car is but could mention that Rolls-Royce and Peerless both used a three-spring arrangement like that, circa 1912. My first thought when I saw the photos of this chassis was that it was a Chalmers, because of the transaxle, which rules out the Peerless.----JeffJeffAre you speaking of the three spring arrangement in the back? If so, Lozier and Cadillac (as previously shown in a photo), used that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) Hey Guys, quick update on dimensions. Rims appear to be 28.5 inches outside curved edge to outside curved edge. Rear drum behind spokes approximately 16 inches. width of rear chasis frame 34 inches. wheelbase from center to center of axels is 120 inches. Nut on front wheel is 1 inch and 7/8 th. outside of rear hub to outside of rear hub is 65 inches. yoke for gas lights is 12 3/4 inches across. yoke is off center with 4 inches inside center and 6 inches on out side top of frame is 2.5 inches at widest point down to 1.5 inches near front. top to bottom of the side of frame changes from 4.5 inches down to 2 inches. I beleive its american. Edited December 4, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 It looks to me the chassis is a high end of the middle price range scale. It doesn't look like Loco, Peerless, or Packard too me. Much more like Cadillac or National price range. Still no listing as to wheel base? There is a new HCCA era book coming out, By fellow AACA member Robert Dluhy, with tech listings on 4100 cars from 1906 to 1914. While the book won't be published till early next year, if we get an accurate wheel base we can compare it to the charts in the new book. My guess is a high end assembled car, low production, and maybe no known examples still with us. Maybe the photos should be posted in the national mag as many members do not use the on line site. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) I think we need to all get the transaxle thing straight. I'm fairly certain that this car had an engine with a divorced transmission mounted just behind the engine on those cross members, and that was linked to a torque tube or open drive shaft, but NOT a transaxle. If the car had a transaxle, that would mean the entire transmission would have been free floating on the rear axle and going up and down with ever bump in the road making the linkage system get a real work out and there would be a ton of weight on the front of the differential constantly pulling it downwards. Most transaxle systems are chain drive with the differential solidly mounted to the frame right? I'm fairly certain someone removed the torque tube or pulled of the front of the differential and that is why the ring gear is exposed. I'm skeptical of the transaxle theory. With that being said, did any of the previously mentioned makes use a floating transaxle or open drive shaft drive? That might be the key to narrowing the possibilities down. The ladder bar on the left side of the rear axle suggests to me that it had an open drive shaft. Edited December 3, 2012 by carlisle1926 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I agree with Carlisle1926 that it is NOT a transaxle car. It looks to me that it had a torque tube. I think mid priced and assembled car. The front end looks like it's light compared to the rear. 120 inch wheel base puts it in the Cadillac price range. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The more I think about the ladder bar coming off of the axle, I'm leaning more towards this car having had an open drive shaft. If it had once had a torque tube, then it would not have had the bars on the side of the axle that keep the axle from torquing upwards when under load, correct? I know the early Cadillacs had a ladder bar, open drive shaft, and the same style of rear suspension. REO also used a ladder bar, open drive shaft and divorced tranmission, but they used a different spring set up, so that rules out REO. Google REO chassis and there are several photos of the early REO drive line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) Man this is driving me crazy not being able to solve this mystery. So far the only car that I can find with those weird front spindles is an ALCO. The Vanderbuilt Cup Alco racer has the same spindles. I tried searching for other cars built by ALCO and yes they all had that style of front axle, but none of them had that rear suspension. I wonder if it is possible that this chassis is made of several different cars, even though that is unlikely. But who knows. Someone suggested early on that the rear suspension might be an aftermarket piece and I was quick to judge that was unlikely, but who is to say that it wasn't an aftermarket piece that was well made and riveted in place. The 1923 Dodge chassis that I have has such an aftermarket kit installed. Maybe the chassis in question is an ALCO with an aftermarket rear kit. Is your head about to pop like mine? Edited December 3, 2012 by carlisle1926 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 When was the last 4 cyl Alco ?? Chain drive or shaft??,,,Cheers,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 When was the last 4 cyl Alco ?? Chain drive or shaft??,,,Cheers,,BenOK OK I"M wrong. It would have been chain drive and a six cylinder if it was an ALCO. Pierce-Arrow used a similar front axle in around 1913, but I can't confirm that it is exactly the same as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Pierce used 3/4 eliptic,,neverr used Platform,,,Drop of front axle was, I think, a longer radius Rear end was a different shape I think,,Pierce did hold the patent on the " Torque Arm "" from the earlier days,,1902 I thinkIt was relative to the motorette,,along with an ELECTRIC 2 SPEED SHIFT,,!!All for now,,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 According to Georgiano, Alco introduced shaft drive in 07 on a a 16HP 4 sold primarily as a taxi cab chassis. A 120" wheel base is probably too long for a taxi. They made 24 & 40 HP fours and appear to have been offering the 4's as late as 1911. They introduced their 60HP six in 1908 and, as far as I know, there are only 2 of them extant... one is the Vanderbilt Cup racer and the other is the ex-George Waterman touring car that belongs to Manny Souza. By 1912 even the sixes were shaft drive though, again, we don't know when the change was made though I would guess around 1909 or 1910. After that, chain drive was pretty obsolete. Were it an Alco, I'd say one of the 40HP fours but its a long shot. The platform suspension only tells us its an upper medium to high end car. It was very common and there are so few surviving examples its hard to find anything to compare it to. The problem is that there is very little to go on and there were literally dozens of small manufacturers. Many were assembling proprietary components so even if we could identify a major part like the rear axle, it would not necessarily tell us what car it was. As has already been said, it could easily be an example of an assembled car that literally no other example exists to compare it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Maybe the photos should be posted in the national mag as many members do not use the on line site. EdIt has been my intention to do just that, whether it gets identified before the next issue or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 The fender(s) are billed, right? Though just about rusted off the passenger side, and gone from the drivers side. The the headlamp mounting yokes are outside frame mounted. So.... more searching....Thanks Jeff for the insight.ChuckThe front fenders were billed. The left one was bent down at some time causing the line. Bill is just hanging there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 1913 Cadilac had a 120 inch Wheel Base, Demountable rims, wheel size 27 inch, 4 cyl, I measured the rim on the widest outside curved edge, One side slides into other. Should measurement be taken where inside edge of tire would touch bottom of rim where rims slides in together? Not sure if I measured them correctly. Could chasis (rear spring) be beefed up for heavier body hearse, padi wagon or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 This is a 13 Cadillac that I used to own. There are more pix if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yes, measure the rim where the tire meets the bottom. Just hold the ruler on the inside and allow a little for rim thickness. The rim diameter where the tire rides will be in full inches. 25,26,27. Ect. Also measure the inside width of the rim. Will be like 3, 3 and 1/2, 4, 4 and 1/2, ect, In the early days tires were measured by the total height. So a 34 X 4 for instance would fit a 26 inch rim. Multiply the 4 times 2 and subtract from the height number for rim size. 4 X 2 = 8 - 34 = 26. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 This is a 13 Cadillac that I used to own. There are more pix if needed.The cadilac is definitely diferent rear frame, rear end, front end and radiator cross member. Thanks.will remeasure the wheels. Anyother measurements? Length of frame, size of opening for drive shaft? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 If there is trouble measuring the rim dia because it is out of round,,,Measure its circumference, and divide by 3,14,,,,If tape is not handy,,,use string and measure later,,,Cheers,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodfiddler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) 1910 Model 30 Cadillac - 1. spindles are not exact - maybe picture too new2. lamp yokes - identical?3. tie rod - very close4. speedo gear correct5. crank support - not sure if there or not6. billed fenders - identical?running low on resourcesChuck Edited December 6, 2012 by Woodfiddler oversight on layout (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 1910 Model 30 Cadillac - 1. spindles are not exact - maybe picture too new2. lamp yokes - identical?3. tie rod - very close4. speedo gear correct5. crank support - not sure if there or not6. billed fenders - identical?running low on resourcesChuckbilled fenders but only 1'2 inch sides, spindles are really different. I took some more pictures and measurements. I also found writing on the license plate bracket. The rims are 26 inches tire tread was 4 inches wide at surface. the inside was 3 1/4 inches if I remember right. had 1/2 inch of white walls. wooden fallow slid inside of a round ring approx 3 inches wide that slid into the two clincher rims. I will post pictures tomorrow when I get back.Dave thanks for the Dec 7 thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I have tried to group some like pictures to aid in viewing.fenders Edited December 17, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Front axle Edited December 17, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Brake rod mechanism and running board brackets. What is the small rod in the first, fourth, 5-fifth and sixth picture used for ? It attaches to the side frame on both ends. It runs under the frame. I don't think it was to hang or support the splash apron since the fourth picture shows the apron sitting on top of the frame. I could be wrong though. I thought it was a control until I realized it attaches to the frame on both ends and in the middle. The second picture of the casting is taken from the top and has the number M814 on it.. Edited December 17, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) rear springs Edited December 17, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) rear end Edited December 17, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I hope to take my friend Lou Iachino up to look at the frame first hand in the near future. He hopes getting a first hand look will help him try to identify it. I realize these pictures leave a lot to be desired. Little hard getting up to the chasis with work and the holidays. I've been searching and looking up every lead you guys have given me and I really appreciate it. Cant wait to hear the imput from the readers of the AACA magazine. Thanks again. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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