Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Front License plate holder. Reads The interchangable Neverout Patent Phila. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisle1926 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Brake rod mechanism, running board brackets. What is the rod in the second picture used for ? It attaches to the frame on both ends. It runs under the frame. I don't think it was to hang or support the splash apron since the fourth picture shows the apron sitting on top of the frame. I could be wrong though. I thought it was a control until I realized it attaches to the frame on both ends. the second picture shows the outside rear attachment to frame. The last picture is take from top of this attachment. Casted into it is the number M814.I'm not certain what you are referring to in the second picture. Here is what I see in The cast piece that is showing up in the second picture with two control arms sticking out of it has a small hole on top where a grease cup would have one been. The two rods sticking out of it operated the rear brakes. One would have been for the internal parking brake, and the other would have been for the external clinching service brake. There is a rod that runs below the frame that terminates back into the frame at both ends. Because of the long length of the frame, this rod is used as a truss system, in much the same way as a suspension bridge to keep the frame from bending in the middle. Is that the rod that you are referring to? There is also a similar rod that runs under the rear axle for extra support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozierman Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The rear spring set up is what was called "platform" springs. It was not a common arrangement except for some of the high end cars. Cadillac and Lozier both used this, but as has been previously stated this is not a Cadillac or a Lozier chassis.The front end is unusual and sould aid in identifying this chassis. I suggest you look at the front image of a Rainier shown recently on the Old Motor website. To me the Rainier looks like the same spindles used here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 MichaelThat seems to be a good guess, especially given the fact that the Rainier was built in New York, and (if I'm not mistaken) the chassis in question rests in New York. That said, most seem to think that this chassis is dated around 1911/12 (certainly no later), and the last Rainier built in New York was 1907, so my assertion of a New York relation may be moot. They moved production to Saginaw, Michigan. The fenders on the 1907 Rainier in "The Old Motor" website appear to be older than the ones on the chassis in question.(Thanks to David Greenlees at "TheOldMotor.com" for the use of the photo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Assuming that the car is a Rainier, I'm guessing that since the chassis in question has fenders, it's not the car that competed in the Brighton Beach 24 hour race held in 1907-08 time period. Although, it's quite possible fenders were put on afterward. (PHoto also courtesty of David Greenlees at "TheOldMotor.com", which shows the Rainier pit with Lou Disbrow’s car in for service. Photo from the Peter Helck Collection, courtesy of Racemaker Press.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Now I see what your talking about. Truss system explains it. It also attaches in the midle of the frame. I seem to remember the rear end ones being a little heavier but serving the same purpose. My Carraige house is built using this concept., except the second floor is hung from a bridge like bracket on the second floor. Thereby eliminating the need for any verticle supports under neath. Slightly different application but now understand the use on the frame. I updated some pictures and didn't realize they changed position on the thread each time. Thanks Carlisle 1926! Now off to check the Rainiers again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Also, maybe we need to check Garford, since they're the ones that built Rainier chassis up to and/or through 1907... and perhaps Studebaker????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Here's the best shot I could find of the Rainier front end. It is from the all-original 1908 car that went up for sale in 2009. The front end chassis looks identical to the salvage chassis. The fenders, of course, are not the same. Does anyone have any higher-res photos of that 1908 Rainier? Or know where it ended up. It is also believed that James Melton once owned a restored Rainier. Does anyone have any idea what happened to that car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Rainier's wheelbase is listed as being 119 inches in 1910, and 120 inches in 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 One last thing: Rainier was bought by General Motors Marquette-Buick Division during Durant's buying spree in 1912. The company was soon-afterward renamed to Peninsular Motor Company during Durant's demise. The Rainier was basically (or partially) rebadged into the Marquette, with the 119-inch wheelbase and 45hp T-head engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoman Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I have a friend who owns 2 Rainiers. I'll have him look at both of his cars and possibly take some pictures to see if that solves the mystery. Locoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I hope to take my friend Lou Iachino up to look at the frame first hand in the near future. He hopes getting a first hand look will help him try to identify it. I realize these pictures leave a lot to be desired. Little hard getting up to the chasis with work and the holidays. I've been searching and looking up every lead you guys have given me and I really appreciate it. Cant wait to hear the imput from the readers of the AACA magazine. Thanks again. RickIs there anyone around this area that does not know Lou? I guess I've know Lou for at least 30 years myself. If you need a trailor, and help to move this to your home, tell Lou to just get a hold of Dandy Dave and we will make a day of it and help you rescue this chassies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodfiddler Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 West - thank you for your time that you have devoted to this chassis id question. I found this link most interesting, tho I have no definitive input. Maybe the experienced folks will have an idea on whether to eliminate the Studebaker-Garford.Bob Johnstones Studebaker Resource Website (1910 Studebaker Garford catalog )I hope this helps as I am somewhat "sick-of" looking at this chassis/frame! (meant in a good way, no disrespect intended)Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Thanks ChuckI think we can rule out Marquette (and Peninsular), unless there's a possibility that they used a different steering knuckle for the two sizes of chassis they offered.Rainier looks to be the closest answer so far, and if its wheelbase is indeed exactly 120 inches, that would indicate 1911. 119 would indicate 1910. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) Wow !! , What a find! I have a copy of the Bulb Horn for Jan-Mar. 1984 that has a 7 page article on Rainier. On page 26 there is a photo of the factory assy. line in 1909. The photo clearly shows features identical to those on the mystery find. The muffler detail and hanger bracket, the distinctive rear crossmember , and the middle crossmember are all spot on. The mystery chassis is probably a few years newer than 1909, but no doubt a lot of the "heavy metal" {forgings, castings, etc.} of the chassis was used for more than a year or two. I hope there are enough bits and pieces of Rainier in existence with other collectors to make a restoration possible. I find it amazing that the remains of a car of this quality and rareity are still out there to be discovered. Greg in Canada where something old in the forest is a teens Ford T or Durant Edited December 18, 2012 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I just got off the phone with the Editor of the Bulb Horn. He found the article and scanning it for me as I write this. I'll post my findings as soon as I can. Thanks Gregg !!! If this pans out then it will create a new quest ha ha. The amount of interest and knowledge that has been generated here is simply remarkable. It really has been interesting to read everyones input. Now lets see where this takes us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Hey Woodfiddler, Hold onto your fiddle and roslyn up you bow !Cause I think Gregg, West, Lozier, Loco and Dave,are all on an awesome roll with the Rainier you know!There are certainly identical parts in the Ranier 1909 pictures that Gregg refered to.Rear end can be seen in both pictures with the unique slant. muffler, running board supports etc. Reading the documentation could lead us to another progression vehicle because of the changes inRainier, Marquette, and influences of Garford. All very interesting and I will leave the desiphering to you guys since I am just a rookie watching the masters at work. I am going to try and post the entire document for you guys to read. Edited December 19, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Did you notice in that article that at the time it was written, there were NO Rainiers known to exist? Based on what has come to light in this thread, there may be as many as four. Unless the two owned by Locoman's friend are the James Melton car, and the one-family-owned car that came up for sale on eBay a couple of years ago. Then we're down to 2, plus the chassis in the woods. I vote for making a replica Brighton Beach Speedster/race car out of it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Copy of the Ranier Story in the 1984 Jan Mar issue of the Bulb Horn Magazine. Coutesy of Denis Holland Editor. Veterans Motor Club of America. Edited December 19, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Didn't Glenn Gould of the Wells Maine car museum have a Ranier,, back say 15-20 years ago,,It was at the house,,not the museum,,It had those funney doors in the hood,,He said it was a rare car,,,Glenn was a senior AACA judge also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If anyone has a problem blowing up article or pictures let me know and I will send them to you via email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The Melton Ranier was a 1906 Town Car, my guess it is the same car in Maine since Steven Paine had a lot of Melton cars. I'd post a photo but am no longer able to do that on this Forum. I'll try to mail iy to Wast in the hope that he can let you all see it. It is the book Bright Wheels Turning, by James Meltyon and Ken Purdy, nice history of his collection in the 1950's, a copy is on eBay right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I'll be happy to post it. I agree that it's more of a pain to post photos now than it used to be. Usually new software makes things easier, but not so much this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The Melton Rainier town car courtesy of Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Rainier from 1907and Garford from 1909-1911Thank you to Matt Hocker at the AACA Library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) I really appreciate all the input everyone has given this thread. A lot of you have really made the hunt interesting. Ha Ha. I hope no one takes offense if their name wasn't included in the jingle. I just threw something together quickly for the fun of it. I've enjoyed reading everyones input. West, although the chasis pics from Rainier and Garford dont match exactly, they could have been for one of the other cars Garford produced for. I'm going to go through and look up the other cars mentioned in the first paragraph of page 9 of the 1984 article. When Garford started producing Sudebakers exclusivly who made chasis for Rainiers? I wonder if they start producing their own chasis emmediately? Did the suspension support rods get added to the frame earlier or later I wonder? I did notice that the article stated that all Rainiers in 1912 used electric lights.Not a reverse eliot type since tie rod is behind axle on the Garford. Edited December 19, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The way I understand it, when Garford exclusively started building for Studebaker in 1907(?), that's when they moved Rainier production to Michigan, and basically built the same car Garford was building for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Just realized that car I recall at Glenn Goulds house was, I think, a Premier,,,not a Ranier,,Tho the hood was similar,,So that ones out,,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I am still wondering how many other Rainier's survive? There is the x Melton town car, and the marvelous survivor touring that changed hands a couple of years ago [Ebay and HCCA site}. Any others ? As much as I have my favorites from all era's; these circa 1906- 12 high quality cars, regardless of manufacturer are in a class by themselves. {Lozier, Sterns, Locomobile, Peerless, etc.}. It's a pity they exist in handful numbers here in the Pacific N.W. , of course only a handful were sold here origionally. And the climate here, {rain, rain, and more rain} destroys even 50 year old relics. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoman Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 I made contact with my friend with the 2 Rainiers today. As far as he is concerned, there are only 2 remaining cars. He owns the Melton town car and the 1908 model D touring car. The Melton car is a 1906-07 model C. He has agreed to take some detail shots of the front axle area,rear-end assembly, and the rear springs to try and help identify the mystery chassis. Stay tuned. Locoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foggy norm Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Am I correct with what I'am seeing, 10 spokes in front and 12 spoke's in the rear? Could a hub cap fit on that rear axle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcarfudd Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Ten spokes in front and twelve in back wasn't uncommon. It was standard on early four-cylinder Cadillacs, for example.Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 I had no luck with finding chasis for Cleveland, meteor, Berg, or Bay State yet. The rounded rear frame appears to be unusual. Wonder if this may indicate a rounded back of a speedster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) If you look at the "assembly line" photo from the Bulb Horn article you can see a rear crossmember that has the identical curved shape to your chassies. Look at the second frame in and you get a clear view of the end of the frame. I would think that given the style of rear spring that this curved crossmember is a feature of all Rainiers of this vintage , and not to suit a particular body style. The front fenders suggest your frame probably carried a touring car body. The town cars seem to use the short early style fenders , and the pony toneau had fenders that swept back further along the frame. Also Roadster, Speedster , Pony Toneau bodies would have most likely had only 2 running board hangers per side. Greg in Canada Edited December 20, 2012 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) I agree Gregg, must have been one of those late night reviews. Definitely the same frame contour. Now the horizontalcontrol lever found in picture #100- 1607 that Carlisle1926 and I were talking about seems to be slightly different. The portion inside of the frame with the funny shape does not yet seem to have been attached to it or was not being used at that time. (The peice that covers the the control arms. One of the two. I have to look at that closer when I can to see how its attached.Not sure if it is applied to or if shaft went through the piece. The article mentioned that the front fender were changed in 1910 from having flared fenders to using splash aprons between Fender and chasis. The mystery chasis uses the first (flared fender). The factory photo does appear to have a tie rod in back of axle but this could be the steering arm. Edited December 20, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) UPDATE TO WHEEL BASE. Wheelbase is not 120 inches as originally thought !! I noticed the front axle is 3/4 inch out of square. I now beleive the true wheel base is 119 inches !!I just discovered a car body in rough condition about 150 yards from the original chasis. I thought it was from another car, but it may belong to this one. I have to return and study it further as all parts were on the ground. May be too good to be true. Owner did not even know that it was there. He is going to check with the son of the original owner to see if the motor and transmission may have been used somewhere else on the farm. The body is probally a long shot but I'll let you know what I find. Edited December 23, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Also ask the oldtimers if there was a sawmill in the area,,That BIG engine would be ideal as a power plantCheers,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 UPDATE TO WHEEL BASE. Wheelbase is not 120 inches as originally thought !! I noticed the front axle is 3/4 inch out of square. I now beleive the true wheel base is 119 inches !!That would date it to 1910, from what I can tell. Can't wait to see photos of the body you found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Catskill123 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) The old farm was a lot bigger years ago. They sold a bunch of it lots off for homes and buisnesses. I've been trying to catch up with the man who gave me the chasis to see if I could bring Lou up but wasn't having much luck. So on my way Christmas shopping yesterday I took a slite detour and stopped by. Luckly he was there and I started pumping him for some more information. At first he didn't know of anything around. I started walking around a bit and discovered this well covered pile of metal. I started picking up peices under the leaves and started finding an old body. I had already known about and an old Ford Model A body closer to my mystery chasis. But had never even seen this pile until I walked over to it. Found an old steering wheel and body parts. At first glance I found a newer front fender from the 20's and automaticly assumed it had to be a newer body. I didn't have a rake and camera so I didn't dive much deeper because I saw a small a few nickle peices scattered here and there and figured it most likely was a newer body. I had to get Christmas shopping and figured I'd be back in a few days to look somemore. The more I thought about it the more I think the rear sectioned belonged to the mystery chasis. Someone could have easily thrown a newer peice from one of the other cars on top of it. I did pick up a metal item that had Automatic Air written on it. Which i again figured was something else. I was reviewing Ranier, Marquette and Buick bodystyles last night in the Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805 to 1942. And was surprised to find a car company named Automatic Air listed around 1899 from Albany NY 30 miles north of us. I'll get a picture of this strange item when I go back too! So the suspense continues Ha ha!Mean while my friend is checking with the original farm owners son to see if he knows anything about a saw mill, pump station or some other use for a large motor. He was aware that a pumping station was on the farm at one time. Where that building was was destroyed by a tornado that struck the area 8 - 10 years ago. Amazingly my friend had lived on the property for some thirty years and did not even know that the vehicle pile I found was even there. And it was only 150 yards away from the mystery chasis and 75 yards from the Model A body. So I can't wait tosee what else we might find. Edited December 23, 2012 by Catskill123 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 You need to invest in a metal detector! That engine may be buried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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