Registry woes in Mass.--(Enmass)!

[Pete K.]

I finally got the ole' girl running great. Still in big need of new tires, but had a couple of weeks left of clear roads and Fall driving up here North of Boston, Ma. I bought this 1925 Dodge brothers touring car last March, not running by a long shot. It had been sitting idle in a barn for many years since the owner died some time ago. The property was up for sale now by the family who was holding onto it until the market sort of recovered here. Everything needed to GO. I was at the right place/right time. I paid for the '25 Dodge in full, as my bill of sale states. (Notarized). The remaining son could not supply me with any past registrations or a title for the car. I contacted Grundy Insurance in PA. to have some insurance on it about 2 months ago. When I got to the registry to pay the sales tax and with my RMV 1 form all filled out properly to apply for a title, and with my bill of sale, I was told I didn't own the car. And my insurance was null & void. This was the manager telling me this. Registry said they have no record of the car in their computer. I told them the car had been off the road before computers. She wouldn't let me pay the sales tax on it. Now, it's over the 10 day limit and I'm being levied interest charges on the tax. To top this off, I can't even get the local cops to sign off the RMV form #TV-7, which is needed to verify the serial number. They said it's supposed to have a 15 digit VIN #, NOT my ORIGINAL tag with the 6 digit number. He ran my car's number and came back with zilch. I am not going to change the tag or numbers, ever. I am so angry, while my interest charges grow everyday.

[Machinist_Bill]

I had a Police officer tell me the same thing until I showed him original documents describing Dodge Brothers serial numbers and their locations. As far as the Manager giving you a hard time good luck with that. You might want to bring that same info to her complete with photos of the numbers. BE NICE! BE NICE! BE NICE! Go on a day that is not crowded and smile a lot! The Manager can contact the data entry person in your State and make any adjustments necessary to the Title form to fit your vehicle. (If they feel like it)

Did I mention to be NICE? Ask her for advice!

Our prayers are with you Pete........

[R.White]

Hi Pete. I share your feelings of despair with officialdom. Having to pay interest on sales tax when you have already paid for the car is very unfair. You would think they would have a resolution process for this sort of thing.

One of the stupid things that happened over here was that at some time in the past the Department of Transport ordered all the records of old cars not licensed at the time held by Local Authorities be destroyed. Fortunately, not all Local Councils were so short sighted and their records survive but where the directive was carried out it is virtually impossible to keep the original number.

Ray

[Pete K.]

Keeping my temper at the Registry is a very tough thing for me to do, but I do it. And I smile. At least up to now. Since the RMV has no records for this Dodge, they are asking me to provide a paper trail as to the seller being the legal body to sell the deceased one's car. The RMV will NOT recognize my notarized bill of sale. I was lucky to get hold of this man who graciously copied his parent's death certificates and wrote a cover letter stating he was the executor to their estate. None of this paper work is certified. RMV may not accept it. AS far as the sales tax goes, my 1925 Dodge is NOT LISTED in the NADA Giude for vintage auto's. Their list starts at 1926 and goes up. Anyone can check this out online. This is the guide RMV uses for tax value basis. This conundrum was found to be fact at the RMV's manager's desk. She, in turn called the Boston Dept. of Revenue. THEY told her the value of my Dodge from "A List" they seem to have for the '25 Dodge. Three times the amount I actually paid for the car. I asked "What lists?", since I am privy to only the NADA lists. She said "They have a list". Again I kindly, with my SMILE, asked "What list?" and she in turn just stared at me and then told me to politely "Leave". So, if I can prove to them I OWN this Dodge, my sales tax will be a minimum of $319.00 and now growing with interest daily, compared to $78.00 I actually should owe them from the sale of the Dodge. I am still trying to convince the Police that this car does not have a 15 digit VIN #. " Rod Serling Lives"

[JACK M]

Do you have other branch offices?

From me there is a DMV office about 15 miles in each direction north and south. If one doesnt work try the other.

[JayG]

When I registered my 25 in CT the woman questioned the VIN too. She started to say that it might have been an assigned number. I quickly stated that it was the actual number from the factory. I was also lucky enough to have the previous title in hand. I feel for your pain. DMV can be very difficult to deal with.

[Pete K.]

Yes, Jack there are other branches around, (two), within 15 - 20 miles. The employees all come from the same "School of ------"! (Fill in the blank).

[R.White]

Here we now have a law which means if you own a car which is not on the road you have to apply for a SORN (Statuary of road Notice). Failure to do so can result in a heavy fine. The only exemption is if the vehicle has been off the road since before 1996. This authoritarian regulation smacks of "big brother" to me. How much longer before they extend it to antiques and other valuables? At the moment SORN is free of charge but I expect there will be a handling fee before too long.

One more difficulty we have with the DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority) is that if a car was not re - installed on their records before they became automated in 1979, they will refuse most requests to retain the original number. One way around this used to be if you could produce period photographs showing the car with it's number - now even this evidence has been deemed inadmissable. The Authorities believe that what they call an "age related number" should suffice. Many people think that they are making too much money by selling old numbers on the open market; ironic, then that before "personalised" numbers became fashionable, they were demanding their destruction.

Ray.

[TonyAus]

Pete

I find the attitude of your police incredible given that the 15 digit VIN system was only introduced in the late 1980s. Surely someone in your State has a registered car made before then. Perhaps you my be able to Google up a little history on the subject which you may insert (gently) up their left nostrils!

Best of luck

Tony

[Pete K.]

Yes, It is really incredible. There is one officer on the "Mayberry" Force here that understands the older cars and their numbers. I found out he has switched his shift onto the night patrol. I must try to get him over here for the TV-7 form RMV wants. It is the Vehicle Identification form, in which the officer visually checks the I.D. numbers on a car, then signs the form with his badge #. This is still a "free" service here, but I'll bet it won't stay that way.

[Guest toybox99615]

Massachusetts did not even become a title state until well after 1963. So I'd be heading to the main registry office in Boston to play this game out. I remember this well as I lived in Mass until I moved to a title state with my Mass registered truck. Then the fun began with no title. Seriously. I'll be in the main office there some guru who specializes in all this kind of stuff. You might have to make a lot of calls to find who that is.

Edited November 7, 2012 by toybox99615 (see edit history)

[Pete K.]

Thanks for the help with ideas all. I plan to get back to the police station to talk with the Chief tomorrow. I can't re-visit my RMV until I get the visual serial # form signed off first.

[MikeC5]

Pete, I feel your pain and frustration... Perhaps you could look up a Model T club or equivalent in your area and ask people who have recently registered old vehicles in Mass. how they went about it. Maybe there is a MVD that is more experienced and worth a longer to drive.

[Bleach]

Does your AAA handle vehicle transfers? I used the services of the AAA in CA to take care of every registration transaction I needed. The CA DMV was staffed with nothing but block heads. It was a relief when I learned of the AAA being able to do everything without a single headache or frustration. I was impressed by my local office in their willingness to process even the most difficult transfer with a smile. If there was something needed in addition, they always had the answer and guided me in the right direction.

[Pete K.]

I don't have AAA and don't plan on getting it. I do appreciate your input and I'm sure AAA may be some kind of help with it's members but I feel this problem should not have to go way out of normal channels. Several years ago, I bought a '31 Ford out of state, (N.Y.), it had no title, I went through the normal channels and it went OK for applying for a Ma. title. The clear YOM plates were a different story though. I just don't understand why there seems to be a tilted playing field for antique car owners applying for title. Unfortunately, the RMV manager is a different person now and may not like old cars and their owners. I feel they make their own rules as they go along. It could be a "Revenue Enhancement" ploy also. It's almost impossible to get a hearing or talk with anyone higher than the branch manager. At least Dorothy was told to "Come back tomorrow, the Wizard isn't seeing anyone today". The Ma. Registry doesn't even want you to come back!

[jpage]

Fortunatly, here in PA we don't have to go to the DMV for registration. We just go to a notary that handles vehicle registrations and that makes it alot easier. Although ,PA can be tough if you don't have the original paperwork or numbers. They also get you with sales tax even for out of state sales unless the car you purchased was kept out of the state for 6 mos. after purchase. Good thing is they will accept the sale price on bills of sale unless the vehicle is late model then they go by the NADA book values for tax purposes.Always after your money!

[Turnaround007]

The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) regulations are found in the Federal Code of Federal Regulations (49 CFR Part 565) It was originally Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 115, which carried responsibity for non compliance by a motor vehicle manufacturer to "recall and remedy" an incorrect VIN. Within a short period, the manufacturers bullied the US DOT into loosening FMVSS No 115 into a Federal Safety Regulation. There is no recall and remedy provision for safety regulations. The Federal VIN regulation required 17 character VINs for the last several months of motor vehicles produced in 1980 (as 1981 model years) to the present time. Before that date there was no Federal requirement for any particular format VIN. The US DOT/NHTSA had and continues to have authority over motor vehicle VINs. The civilian outfit that co-ordinates with the state DMVs, is the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB). These guys carry guns and arrest people. The NICB maintains the location and VIN formats for most U.S. motor vehicles. They (and the NHTSA) usually will accept information from a knowledgable motor vehicle association (such as the Dodge Brothers club) about obscure VINs such as this feller's problem vehicle. (1) Try calling the Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance (NHTSA) in Washington , DC, and requesting to talk to the engineer currently in charge of 49 CFR 565 about what and when the Federal government drafted particular VIN regs. (2) Call your state's Federal Senator and your State's Federal Member of the House for their assistance. Supply them with as much VIN law information as I earlier talked about. (3) Call your State Senator and your State's House of representative or assembly man or whatever they call them in your state. All these politicals have 20 - 30 staff members that handle problems such as this for their citizens. A State Senator or House member has life and death power over an agency such as the State DMV (the politicals write the budget, and the governor enforces the laws the politcals draft. No DMV employee is a match for the big guns at the congressional or gubnatorial level. If required, the NHTSA's Administrator will sign a letter detailing the Federal law and how it applies to your situation. Such a letter is called an "interpretation" and is drafted by a Federal lawyer experienced in pertinent regualtions. You can search for interpretations at the NHTSA web site. There most likely is an applicable letter already stored at: Search NHTSA Interpretation Files And lastly, the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) contains most of the state DMVs as contributing members. It definitely is worth touching base with all the above folks, but be advised that the more references to the law that you supply them, the better they can educate themselves (on the spot) to be able to help you. Do some work on your own and let them make the heavy weight decisions that will open the doors for you.

[Pete K.]

Thank you "Turn", I've had a lot of great help on this subject, I may be calling my Senator's office soon if I run into anymore stone walls with the Serial # verification. I couldn't get to it ( the Police station) today since we had a small blizzard over night and slowed down the whole work day for me. Unfortunately. moving the Dodge to another state or country is out of my realm. I'll keep you all posted as soon as I receive results, one way or another. Thanks again all.

[Pete K.]

One hurdle accomplished after work this Friday as I visited my police department again. After explaining to the new dispatcher-ess I need a visual inspection done on an antique car, she started with the inquiry about numbers in some database, they have none for auto's that have been off the road as long as my Dodge has been. I had to stop her and tell her about last week and the overly flustered patrolman needing to see an 18 digit VIN # and leaving my garage grumbling. I told her this is not a case for Lt. Columbo and a long lost stolen '25 Dodge, just an on-site verification of a short string of numbers on my car. She seemed to now understand as she and two other detectives had a short pow-wow on the subject. Within an hour, another patrolman came to my garage whereas I had the Dodge out in the Fall sun, running like a champ. He had NO problem signing off the TV-7 form I'll need for the RMV. ---Friday afternoon now, 2 hours left for my RMV to stay open before the weekend, I drove my modern to the branch office at a very large and congested mall, only to find a hand scribbled note on their steel drop-gate saying they're closed due to computer failures and to go to another branch office. All the other mall stores were open. I must be such a pessimist since I immediately uttered out loud,"All their computers??" No one was in the dark office there fixing them. I could not get to another branch today.

[1936 D2]

Probably a network issue. All their data comes from a central office I would guess. Maybe from the State capitol. There may have been outages at other RMV branch offices too then. (Either that or they just wanted a Friday afternoon off!)

At least you got the TV-7 form filled out. I would think you are more than half way home!

[Pete K.]

I made my way back to the RMV today. Their computers were up and working OK. I was lucky to get a very nice young lady, a manager, who took her time to inform me I still didn't own my Dodge. Apparently, the paperwork I got from the seller did not prove a thing. Copies of Death Certificates and a copy of his notarized "Power of Attorney" to liquidate tangible items of the deceased is not going to do it. I was now instructed to secure a notarized affidavit from seller & myself, how the entire story unfolded, from his father's ownership, why and when the Dodge was taken off the road, how he became the seller and how I became the buyer. I also need copies of his paperwork from the Probate Court, stating verification of his executor-ship of his dad's estate (the '25 Dodge). The bill of sale and the completed RMV form TV-7 and my RMV 1 form with my phone number, all to be mailed to the Registry of Motor vehicles, Title Division, 25 Newport Extension,4th floor, Quincy, Ma. The Title Dept. evaluates the info & runs a check on the vehicle, the Dept. "decides whether a title can be issued to you". ----Anyway, I hope this helps some folks down the road when they put their old car on the road if a title is not available. Meanwhile, my sales tax fee is multiplying daily with interest now, as before, since I'm past the 10 day limit to pay the fee.

[Guest 1930]

I made my way back to the RMV today. Their computers were up and working OK. I was lucky to get a very nice young lady, a manager, who took her time to inform me I still didn't own my Dodge. Apparently, the paperwork I got from the seller did not prove a thing. Copies of Death Certificates and a copy of his notarized "Power of Attorney" to liquidate tangible items of the deceased is not going to do it. I was now instructed to secure a notarized affidavit from seller & myself, how the entire story unfolded, from his father's ownership, why and when the Dodge was taken off the road, how he became the seller and how I became the buyer. I also need copies of his paperwork from the Probate Court, stating verification of his executor-ship of his dad's estate (the '25 Dodge). The bill of sale and the completed RMV form TV-7 and my RMV 1 form with my phone number, all to be mailed to the Registry of Motor vehicles, Title Division, 25 Newport Extension,4th floor, Quincy, Ma. The Title Dept. evaluates the info & runs a check on the vehicle, the Dept. "decides whether a title can be issued to you". ----Anyway, I hope this helps some folks down the road when they put their old car on the road if a title is not available. Meanwhile, my sales tax fee is multiplying daily with interest now, as before, since I'm past the 10 day limit to pay the fee.

Welcome to New England

[1936 D2]

You don't yet own the vehicle according to them, so you can't be liable for the tax yet. The taxation on you as owner starts when you are declared the owner and issued the title.

If they try to claim that you owe back taxes you can make issue with the fact that it is THEIR system of requirements that is causing the delays. They can't push up a tax because of delays created by them.

[72caddy]

It should also work in the opposite direction. If they state you owe interest on the tax, then the state is basically inferring you are the owner and responsible for the fee. They can't recognize you as the owner but state you are not the owner at the same time, something has to give.

[Grimy]

This is incredibly frustrating, as I know all too well from experience. I'm in The Pipples Republik of Calleeforneeya, where I'd almost rather have a root canal than attempt a problematic registration, especially a transfer, at a DMV field office.

A stellar example: A year ago, I attempted to re-register my 1939 Cadillac 75 which had been unregistered since 1981. After I retired, I got it running again and was prepared to enjoy it. I took my 1968 title, showed my drivers license, offered a completed certificate of non-operation. No luck--I must bring the vehicle in for inspection of the VIN. I paid my fees and got a 60-day temporary registration. No problem. The DMV inspector, a female about 25 yrs old, matched the stamped number in the frame to the number on the 1968 title and the 1981 registration, and asked, "Where's the second number?" They didn't have those in 1939. Then I was told I must take the car to a CHP (Hwy Patrol) verifiier who has the list of secret locations for the second number. I called for an appointment, the earliest being 8 weeks out. The CHP officer, also young from his voice, assured me that most certainly there was a secret second number, which I knew to be untrue. So I said, "So we don't waste eight weeks, could you please check your book and tell me now that your book does indeed list a confidential second number? I'm not asking where it is. If not, what's Plan B?" He refused to do that and said, "We'll look in the book in eight weeks."

At that point, I contacted a DMV expediter who charges $80-150 in addition to DMV fees for the service ($80 for this one, due to no change of ownership), which was WELL WORTH IT! What's your time worth? I kept my black plates and had the title and registration within 3 weeks. I used this same service again for a muddled title acquisition, and will do so in the future for a transposed serial number issue.

I used Professional Registration Service in California--which probably only operates within this state. No website, sole owner-operator, has a great reputation in the car collecting community. Her name is Donna Leek and her email is pro.reg.service[at]gmail.com In your area, check for advertising in LOCAL collector car media.

We can rail all we want about the inadequacies of official DMV offices nationwide, but the bottom line is getting it done with a minimum of expense and stress and our own time. In California, DMV people (at their field offices) are ill-trained to handle anything out of their customary range of knowledge, and seem unwilling to admit or even consider that there have not always been 17-digit serial numbers.

Calif DMV also has a Public Inquiries Office in Sacramento, whose staff are **usually** very helpful by phone. That office is the liaison to the Association of California Car Clubs. However, they hew to the Party Line, as one would expect.

For what it's worth....and GOOD LUCK!

[Guest toybox99615]

Just how much is the amount of Sales Tax you owed when this fiasco began?

[Pete K.]

I paid $1200. for the car. Non running condition. Part of the deal was for me to trade my services for a month to seller also, (approx. $2500.+ value). Got bill of sale for Dodge @$1200. RMV will NOT recognize a bill of sale. RMV says I owe 6.25 percent sales tax on $4900. The NADA book for vintage auto's does not list the '25 Dodge values. It starts at 1926. RMV "made a call" and came up with this figure that I now owe on. I feel this is a "value tax", not a sales tax. All car owners in this state pay an excise tax, annually, based on their car's value. Antiques included. RMV uses the NADA book for their value assessments. I plan to file a CA-6 Mass. DOR form, for an abatement if I can ever get that far. Was told that the chance for an abatement is slim to none. I don't know what kind of interest they're charging me--I don't really want to know now, but I can't pay a tax on a car "I don't own", so says the RMV.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Pete K. (see edit history)

[R.White]

You are really caught between a rock and a hard place, Pete. I hope you get it sorted out soon. Surely they have made an error somewhere? Do other offices take the same hard line?

[Pete K.]

Sometimes it feels like I'm under the rock Ray. It seems like a gamble when you go into a branch office, what info the one employee tells you, differs or omits important directives for one to achieve. The time spent to "learn" their ways takes up valuable time, which I have very little of. Other folks on this forum have been very helpful with my plight, but all ideas will in turn take up much time too, so I'm pounding this out at the branch where it started, since they know me by sight now and may well be getting tired of seeing me. I do understand they have rules and regs, which I'm set to comply with. It's just a matter of getting my ducks in a row. I need more paperwork from the seller to prove the car was legally sold to me by the estate I got it from.

[1936 D2]

Picture doing this transfer in a State where the law required a verification of VIN at a local State Patrol Office. You bring the car there and have to leave it until "someone" gets the time to look for the frame number. Supposedly this trained "someone" who is looking for the number, can't find it anywhere (???), so the vehicle is impounded! You then need to show "receipts" for ALL parts of the car showing you own the whole car (???). You can't come up with receipts for "everything" and the "bill-of-sale" you got from the prior owner (from another State) is not being accepted by the State Patrol Officer. So the car sits there for almost 9 months and you get a mailing that if you don't get the required paperwork to them within "x" number of days they will crush the car for scrap!!!

I had a friend dealing with that scenario in OHIO. So I guess, it can always be worse - somewhere! :mad:

It is well worth your time to look up your State's Statutes pertaining to antique, collector, hobbyist, reconstructed, remanufactured or salvage laws BEFORE you try to process the paperwork. Be aware for yourself! You MAY have to (politely) tell them how to do their own jobs!

(BTW: My friend ended up getting a lawyer because he got charged, eventually, with possession of stolen property (???) which cost him over $5000.00. He also had to contact his State Senator to try and straighten out the mess. No person should have to go through stuff like that!!! All because of the fault of the State's Agents being ah... too stupid to know how their own laws work!)

[Pete K.]

Yes, there are worse scenarios than mine. Far worse. I'm now in the process of getting the seller to prepare a letter stating the time line of the Dodge up to my buying it. It will be notarized. He claims there is no Probate Court paperwork naming him as executor, as he stated it is mentioned in his mother's Will, whereas a Will in place cancels out Probate hearings and settlements.----I don't know---I'm not a lawyer and I sure as Hell can't afford one for this car deal either. This is my HOBBY only. The sales tax money that I'm going to have to come up with,was slated to buy new tires for the Dodge, since the old tires are not really considered tires anymore. I am on a very fixed income. Maybe instead of fooling with antique cars, I should be collecting door knobs.

[1936 D2]

HeHe. They are smaller to store at least!

[JACK M]

Just dont tell anybody about them or they will tax you and make you show where you got them. Be sure that you name the person that you bequieth (sp) them to in your will.

Lots of families turn ugly when the rich uncle dies.