I'd like your thoughts on oil analysis

[West Peterson]

Does anyone ever have their oil analyzed for metal particles (collector car or otherwise)?

If you've had it done, what is gained in knowing?

Is this something that only owner's of high-end cars with impossible to replace engines would find beneficial?

Would it need to be done regularly, so as to monitor a change?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Guest straight shooter]

I have never had it done but the reason that it is done is to know how long you can go without an oil change. Many times changing the oil every 3k to 5k is a waste. It really depends on your driving conditions and geographical area. I know of people that have had their oil analyzed at 5k mile and it was found to still be good. It is also done on a lot of diesel engines, especially marine, as part of the pre-purchase inspection. It supposedly reveals a lot about how the engine was maintained.

[Bhigdog]

We did it routinely on our aircraft engines. The value comes from comparative analysis against the engines ongoing base line numbers. What you are looking for isn't so much the presence of metal but a change or large increase. For example if a certain metal's signature spikes it shows not only abnormal wear but what is likely wearing. For a multi-million dollar jet engine you are depending on the cost is well worth while. For a car not so much...........bob

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Oil analysis is typically done with fleets, or really big engines, such as marine and rail-road locomotives, where crankcase capacity is measured in gallons and using the oil until it is "worn-out" is a more feasible economic model than it would be for someone running an automobile with a crankcase capacity between one and three gallons.

(They do change the filters on a regular schedule...)

In addition to checking for particles, they also are checking for depletion of additives (anti-wear, anti-corrosion), water content, diminished lubricating qualities.

I can appreciate the point of view of protecting a rare or irreplaceable engine (say a Marmon 16), but the expense of testing might exceed that of oil & filter changes... ?

I wonder if Jay Leno has explored this issue...

[Guest]

We did it routinely on our aircraft engines. The value comes from comparative analysis against the engines ongoing base line numbers. What you are looking for isn't so much the presence of metal but a change or large increase. For example if a certain metal's signature spikes it shows not only abnormal wear but what is likely wearing. For a multi-million dollar jet engine you are depending on the cost is well worth while. For a car not so much...........bob

________________________________________________________________________

X2 on that Bob, We did that in the Navy too. In addition our engines were equipped with chip lights. Samples of fuel and oil always done every seven day calendar inspections.

Don

[Guest Dick Whittington]

Having been involved in fleet maintenance during the first half of my working career, I am a firm believer in doing it. Every oil change, no, unless you saw something suspicious in the prior sampling. Depending on the mileage driven, once a year at the most, most collector cars every few years would be adequate. Most companies that do it will send you a very detailed report showing what and where each item on it pertains to your engine.

Personally, I drive my truck about 30k a year. I do one sample a year normally. Last sample showed excess fuel in the oil. Found two leaking fuel injectors.

You can get a sampling kit from any Wix jobber, Carquest, NAPA, or O'Reilley dealer. The Wix # is 24078. I alternately use Wix and Blackstone Labs Blackstone Labs

[NTX5467]

Oil analysis can be good to do for general principles, sometimes . . . just to know what you've got. As mentioned, many high-mileage fleets (think trucks and delivery vehicles) do it as a matter of course to find when the oil's "TBN" (total base number) gets down to about "2", of almost ready to become acidic.

The other reason is to see what additive package the particular oil has when new, and then when it's been in the engine for a while. For massive amounts of this information, see . . .

- Bob is the Oil Guy Once in "Forums", click on "Virgin Oil Analysis", along with "Used OIl Analysis". Many forum members have posted oil analysis reports from (for that forum) Blackstone Labs, but you can probably take your oil to any Catepillar dealer and they can get it done for you there . . . not sure what the price is, though. LOTS of information in those oil analysis postings!!!

Motor oil analysis is more in the fleet/off-road machinery realm of things than in "street cars". But, it can also detect things before they can become "issues", like coolant leaks inside the motor. If done with some frequency, you can also look for "wear metals" increasing with mileage. Not all engines "beat up" the additives and deplete them at similar rates. It was noted that the 10K oil change interval for the GM/Isuzu Duramax was just fine, even on normal motor oil, as the TBN and such were still good and useable with 10K on the oil change.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest Siegfried]

Thanks to all for the information. This is something I never knew about. Probably because all I've been involved with are family cars.

[Jim Bollman]

I have used Blackstone Labs for 4 or 5 years. I get my diesel truck done every other oil change and the wife's gas car every year to 18 months. They give a very detailed report on what they find and explain it. They also compare it to other similar engines if they have enough data to use. I highly recommend it to find out what is going on inside the engine. Costs around $25, they will send you the kits for free.

[Guest Dick Whittington]

Many forum members have posted oil analysis reports from (for that forum) Blackstone Labs, but you can probably take your oil to any Catepillar dealer and they can get it done for you there . . . not sure what the price is, though. LOTS of information in those oil analysis postings!!!

NTX5467

More than likely the "Clatterpillar" lab of choice will not have comparable vehicles, in their database, of the type most of us have, and will not be able to give a normal range.

[Guest Al Brass]

I used to run a Caterpillar oil sampling laboratory and I agree with BhigDog. What is looked for is a spike in readings and beyond that is best done by comparing similar engines in similar applications. With Cat, it is ideal as they have a huge history of every engine in every application so you can pick up an engine that is reading above average quite easily. It is then up to the skill of the technician to establish where or what the contamination is coming from. With a one-off engine, like your car West, it would take quite some time and mileage to develop a "library of information" and I don't think you'll ever do enough miles to get a huge benefit from it. However, it can't do any harm, if you have the money !

Regards

Al

[Guest T-Head]

I have used Blackstone Labs for 4 or 5 years. I get my diesel truck done every other oil change and the wife's gas car every year to 18 months. They give a very detailed report on what they find and explain it. They also compare it to other similar engines if they have enough data to use. I highly recommend it to find out what is going on inside the engine. Costs around $25, they will send you the kits for free.

I also use Blackstone for cars that I maintain for clients and highly recommend them.

[Restorer32]

It can be useful to monitor the condition of babbitted bearings over time.

[Guest prs519]

Used to tAKE samples on Cat and other equipment, including army tanks. the analysis is so accurate that, as mentioned, any bearing material showing prematurewear can be accurately pinpointed due to alloy composition. The presence of some substances can cause a preventive maintenance action that will make the cost of the sampling near meaningless. The analysis not only will show bearing wear, but can tell the difference if it is a turbocharger bearing or a main, if antifreeze is present...or if somehow dirt (silicon) is being introduced. I did not think, back in my time, that the analysis was done to adjust oil change intervals which is usually done according to manufacturer's recommendations, anyway. I will say my examples are far from comprehensive...that oil reads your engine like a history book if you know how to interpret it. If I had a rare vintage engine that I liked to run, I would do this on occasion, depending on circumstances.

Perry

Perry

[Bill Harmatuk]

I was once an oiler in a pulp mill that ran 24-7.

I was the one that collected the oil samples from critical machinery such as the turbine generator, (8-10 million to replace), boiler feed water pumps, (if they quit the power boiler blows, killing everybody.),.. and many other pumps and gear boxes, as big as your house.

We usually looked for water, oxygen, and metal particles in order to tell the "health" of the machine's internals, and the oil in order to schedule planned shut downs.

We would analyze our personal car and truck's oil but we never saw anything that would really be of use except for someone's automatic transmission that was already failing.

I never said I was a Tribologist.

Bill H

[wmsue]

Great information. Thanks.

Would it be beneficial to have a reading on a car with high mileage? Not having a base line or previous reading would having an oil analysis help you with when to trade the old daily driver in and look for another? I drive about 100 miles a day on an 05 Kia. Change oil every 3.5K. use 5W-30 and never have to add between changes. Car runs great and other than tires, filters, fluids, and fuel I haven't done too much. Got 145K on it and wanted to keep it till fall 2012. My wifes car will be paid for then and I don't want to join the 'book of the month' club till then.

Any thoughts?

thanks

[Bhigdog]

Your engine is only part of the equation. I wanted to keep my 132,000 mile Durango another year or two. It didn't use any oil between changes. Last inspection it needed new pads and rotors all around, new emergency brake shoes, ball joints would maybe go one more inspection, the rear was getting noisy, I suspect a pinion bearing, and trans was getting kind of shifty, if you know what mean, and it had an exterior water leak that nobody could find.

I'm now driving a new Grand Cherokee. I like it a lot so far..........Bob

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Your engine is only part of the equation. I wanted to keep my 132,000 mile Durango another year or two. It didn't use any oil between changes. Last inspection it needed new pads and rotors all around, new emergency brake shoes, ball joints would maybe go one more inspection, the rear was getting noisy, I suspect a pinion bearing, and trans was getting kind of shifty, if you know what mean, and it had an exterior water leak that nobody could find.

I'm now driving a new Grand Cherokee. I like it a lot so far..........Bob

I'd be seriously worrying about any engine that didn't use around a cup to a pint of oil between changes.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I've had gasoline engines in cars that made it over 300,000 miles without ever having an oil analysis done. Probably unnecessary if one frequently pulls the dip stick and changes oil regularly within original manufacturers recommendations.

Logic: looking at the oil and the dipstick will quickly tell one if there is a problem with moisture in the crankcase or if the oil is full of crap from some source. What it won't tell one is now much acid has built up, though I have seen terrible milky crud on a dipstick that would tend to indicate water and acid together combined with other impurities.

Acids are probably one of the worst enemies of an engine and if you've ever torn down an engine to find the piston skirts look like a beaver has been chewing on them you know what I'm talking about.

[wmsue]

I forgot about all the brake pads, rotors I've had to put on. I guess I'm looking for the crystal ball that will tell me when the engine has had enough. When I worked in a machine shop during high school and college we did alot of valve jobs and some engine rebuilding. I've seen the crud your talking about.

The underside of the oil fill cap doesn't show any evidence of water in the crankcase, nor does the dip stick.

Sometimes maybe it better NOT to know on a car that has this many miles on it. I'll save the testing for my BUICK.

thanks and Happy Holidays to all.

[Bhigdog]

I'd be seriously worrying about any engine that didn't use around a cup to a pint of oil between changes.

Let me rephrase my statement. It would be more correct to say I didn't have to add oil between changes.............Bob

[Joe Block]

Good Question,

Many of the Dodge, Cumming Ram pickup Turbo Diesel guys do it, especially when running synthetic engine oils. where an oil change 40-60 dollars doing yourself, saying that I run synthetic and change it every 10,000 miles, I hear guys going 20,000 and more and still getting oil "ok" reports back front the $20 service charge people.

I love the Packard but would not put synthetic in it, to hard on the seals. Maybe consider after I retire and start driving it more.

[MikeC5]

I can see it maybe being worthwhile for a rare, high end car where major engine parts would have to be reverse engineered (and manufactured) if a replacement were needed. This assumes you could develop a meaningful baseline over a series of oil changes and then look for signs of major change which might indicate impending failure. Catching a bad rod bearing before the rod lets go could save an engine block...

[Guest Dick Whittington]

I can see it maybe being worthwhile for a rare, high end car where major engine parts would have to be reverse engineered (and manufactured) if a replacement were needed. This assumes you could develop a meaningful baseline over a series of oil changes and then look for signs of major change which might indicate impending failure. Catching a bad rod bearing before the rod lets go could save an engine block...

Major labs will have a worthwhile base line on engine type, maybe not the marque though.

[Trulyvintage]

Save your money & buy Auto RX @ Auto-Rx Internal Engine Cleaner

This product is engineered - developed - marketed by an owner/operator

It is not 'snake oil' - it works ....

I have used it with positive results on diesel engines

Jim

[Guest Dick Whittington]

If the engine has been properly maintained there is NO reason for those additives. I was assistant Director of Maintenance for an over 2,500 vehicle fleet, and we NEVER saw any benefit with any of the oil additives.

[NTX5467]

The reason I mentioned "Cat" was that those are some of the more high-profile service centers to that you can walk in to an probably get an oil analysis kit from, for the common person . . . plus having some instant credibility of sorts. There are other private labs that can do the same work, locally, either as regular oil analysis labs or contractors for other labs. For example, there's a Cat dealer 20 minutes from me, but there's also a private lab in a much more rural setting that can do the same thing. As you generally state what the oil is being tested, there is some data somewhere against what to compare it against . . . which is where the Bobistheoilguy website comes in handy, with both Virgin oil analysis and Used oil analysis reports in the many postings there.

Almost everybody on the - Bob is the Oil Guy website/forum use Blackstone Labs, for what it's worth.

It would be the acidity of the oil which can attack internals, which is why oil is changed in the first place, in addition to the additive package being degraded due to engine designs and such. With a 3K oil change interval for normal driving, the higher TBN of modern oils tends to make this a little soon, which is where the "Used Oil Analysis" comes in. One fleet maint operator mentioned that with the new "SN" oils, they generally start with a lower TBN than the priior "SM" oils did, which shortened the oil change mileage in their trucks from 25K miles to about 22.5K miles. Their orientation is to change the oil before the acidity level (the decrease in the Total Base Number, TBN) got to its last 2% level. For some, that might be cutting things a little thin, so others might desire to change it sooner.

As for oil consumption . . . in the 1970s, "Excessive Oil Consumption" (as defined in several GM service bulletins on such) was 600 miles/quart, as I recall, maybe 1000 miles/qt. In a Perfect Circle magazine I found, the article noted that if "one drop" of oil was used for every revolution of the engine, it would equate to 1 qt every 300 miles. This was in a time when oil consumption of 1qt/3000 miles was considered very good.

In more modern times, emission controls and such now rely upon oil control which is much tighter than anything known in the past. Even as the oil viscosity has generally decreased, too. And even as the tension of the piston's rings has been decreased to decrease internal friction for emissions/fuel economy issues!

My company vehicle is a 2010 Chev G-3500 with the 6.0L V-8 and 6-speed automatic. With its gearing and tire size, it "loafs" (as they used to say) at 1700rpm at 70mph. It took about 12K miles before the engine fully loosened-up, or the performance increase hit it's "normal" plateau, of sorts. I requested an oil change at about 4K miles, initially, but have run it to "10% oil life remaining", typically, which is about 10K miles. Last year, at this time of the year, it was approaching the 10% level, but I suspected management would desire a delay of a week or so, for general principles, so I ended up (at my judgment call) getting it done at a 15K interval. Even at that elevated level, the oil level was still at the "Full" mark.

The key thing in "oil control" is to have tolerances at a particular level which can make oil control easier for the various seals (i.e., valve seals, rear main seal). The effectiveness of the oil scraper ring is a key player, too, as oil consumption during particular operational modes in Corvettes with manual transmissions proved about 10 years ago. This results in adequate lubrication plus keeping oil out of the combustion chamber, returning it to the sump, very efficiently . . . which is an on-going situation.

Many earlier engine designs had lots of friction in them due to parts rubbing together. As each valve openned, the valve lifter rubbed against the camshaft lobe, working against spring pressure, to move the pushrod, which rotated the rocker arm (against a "ball" or a "shaft"), which pushed the valve open as the end of the rocker arm rubbed against the top of the valve stem, which put side loades on the valve guide by the valve stem as it moved between open and closed. LOTS of things deisgned to rub against each other!

As the piston moved up and down, after combustion, it would put more side loads on the cylinder walls, too, which could also be affected by the engine's stroke-to-rod length (or swing angle of the connecting rod) ratio. One reason which some felt that V-configuration engines would have cylinder walls which had more wear on their thrust sides than their inner sides, thereby keeping vertical inline engine styles in production a good deal longer, I suspect, or at least until that theory was disproven.

In earlier times, there might have been reason for many good motor oil additives, but many were also termed "mouse milk". In cases where certain operating conditions might need higher detergency levels, an additive might successfully address that. Or in cases where more extreme pressure additives might be needed, certain additives could address that, too. With time, though, motor oils generally addressed these things with incremental improvements in base stocks used, better chemistry in the additive package, or combinations thereof.

In some cases, using synthetic oils in vintage vehicles can be problematic. The synthetic's chemistry can degrade the rubber in some of the older seals, but this seems to be a highly variable situation, depending upon just "how" synthetic the oil might be, for example. There's a thread in the BCA General Forum (or the Post-War Forum) from about 2003, when several members drove their Buicks to Flint for the national meet that year, many with synthetic oil in them. Key thing is that any seal issues will not generally show up immediately, but after the oil's been being used for "a while".

Happy Holidays!

NTX5467

[MikeC5]

All good points NTX though I suspect most antique car owner are not trying to stretch their oil change intervals. I would even hazard a guess that few put more than 1 or 2 thousand miles on the oil before it gets changed. Relative to the cost of parts, restoration, etc., oil changes are peanuts. So why test the oil? I can only see it being useful as a warning; sudden increases in lead or tin, for example, might indicate it's time to re-babbit (before major damage is done). If you test the oil at each change, you can get an idea what normal readings are. I guess if you have a good ear you can hear the warning signs before all hell breaks loose....

[tcslr]

Oil analysis is a powerful, important and necessary tool for diagnostic assessment of emerging trends and PdMA (predictive maintenance assesment). As in any good maintenace program, continuity of data is valuable to identify emerging trends - it is optimized with other maintenance data/programs - PM, vibration analysis, CBM, operating conditions/trending, etc.

That said, spot analysis can sometimes provide valuable indications of developing issues.

Prior to oil analysis, a rigorous program of solid and good PM ( routine oil changes and careful observaton of the used oil and equipment conditions) worked well for industry. For system that are required to operate at peak performance and whose failure results in unacceptable risks i.e. loss of life due to say multiple aircraft engine failure, loss of pumps in electrical generation with associated loss of revenue, etc., oil analysis provides the next incremental disgnostic system to further refine 'prefect' maintenance that being 100% proactive maintenance rather than any reactive maintenance.

That's really what you are asking - to paraphase-- ' How to I get to pure preventative maintenance?'

So, if you have the resources, there is some cost benefit. What's the net present value of the incremental cost for this? Your model and those assumptions will determine the 'value' of this.

Tom

[Guest Rami]

What is the meaning of the experts here regarding these Do-it yourself tests

Evaluation - motorcheckup-uks jimdo page!

Ruedi Mueller, Switzerland

[Guest Lubehead]

Hello, this is my first post to your forum. While doing some research for a proposal I am working on I found this thread. I am meeting with a fleet operations manager responsible for over 150 pieces of rolling stock on Wednesday. The company he came to be employed with recently hired an outside consultant who advised them that "there is no value in using oil analysis on trucks". As a veteran lubrication professional, I know this to be hogwash and thought it would be nice to have additonal documentation from other sources. I found a couple of good articles from Waste Age and Commercial Car Journal and of course documentation I have acquired in the 35 yrs l have been in business.

Anyway, as an avid automobile enthusiast with a couple of oldies, I thought I'd share my thoughts on this topic. Bhigdog, Dick Whittington, NTX5467 and others have provided excellent information. I would only add that while I do not think analysis has a real value with a common personal vehicle,( unless there is an issue that should be investigated) I do think it has value with any vehicle that would be considered a collectible or have enthusiast interest, regardless of any "rarity". The average cost of an oil sample, depending on whether or not TBN is required will vary from $12-20 depending on the lab. This is less than the cost of a tank of fuel. Even if one only samples oil on an annual basis, say before the vehicle is put up for the winter ( I'm from the Norheast US) . It is a great tool that can provide valuable information.

Overfueling as seen in the form of fuel dilution may be able to be addressed, if one is aware of it. A coolant contamination issue could be staved off saving considerable damage. One may also be able to see any significant trends (as has already been mentioned) in terms of non linear wear as an example. You would also be able to see if there was any significant deviation in viscosity from an unused oil baseline. Finally, having a series of analyses comprising a history ( possible only if you stay with the same lab) is a great selling feature as anyone puchasing a vehicle would be impressed (and thankful) to see the oil analysis history.

I try to analyze my engines at least annually. My company vehicles are analyzed at every oil change (that is the goal anyway). I've attached analysis results on a couple of vehicles that are fairly common for all to see; a Honda V6, and a Chevy V8.

There is no commercial message here and I abhor those that use these types of forums to further their agenda. My message is posted in the spirit of sharing with other automobile enthusiasts.

Honda.pdf

Chev Z71.pdf

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lubehead (see edit history)