Is paper Buick Membership Roster book a waste of resources?

[PVRed90]

I just received the 2011 Membership Roster book with my August issue of the Bugle. Even in this era of elctronic media I really like the Bugle but I think it is a waste of resources to print and mail a paper copy of the Membership Roster, production year data, bylaws and rules. I think it would be more efficient and useful to post a searchable copy on a website. It would be the green thing to do and probably save BCA some money. What does everyone else think?

[raleets]

Certainly no disrespect intended here......BUT if you're comfortable with a computer like yourself and myself it's a great idea.....HOWEVER, a huge number of BCA members don't have, and don't want, a computer. I realize this is difficult to believe, but it's the stark truth!

Therefore, having a hard copy BCA roster is a nice touch and very beneficial to those folks. Many BCA travelers take it along with them on trips to BCA events, etc., as a "comfort blanket" in case of breakdown so they could possibly contact another BCA member if needed.

Yep, computers are great, but they still haven't replaced a good old-fashioned book!

Just my humble opinion.

Bob

[padgett]

I read several hard cover books a week (library is close). Also have more than enough computers (five and three monitors in front of me right now) Think there is a place for both but for someone today not to have a computer just must not need many parts.

(Have a netbook for travel with multiple service manuals and parts books onnit. Tablets are close but not ready for prime time.)

[Barney Eaton]

While I was on the Board, there were several (long) discussion about this issue.

I remember some of the issues being.... in no order.... the concern of putting all the members name, address, etc on line. Without using a security/password system, anyone could use them and in that format, they can be downloaded into a mass mailing file and possibly distributed by unauthorized people. Many members do not own or use a computer.

There was talk about putting the info on DVD. All of the above was covered along with the fact that the hard copy is expensive.

Put together a good argument and send it to the Board members. I do not know what plans they have for the future as my term ended July 2010

[Booreatta]

The day might come when the roster is available on line but the club is not there yet. I think the complaints about putting all the information on line is really unfounded. Anyone good on a computer can find almost anything on line. The biggest argument is for the travler. I carry the roster in the car and when I travel I have the information with me. I say keep in the book form, it has not been published for the past several years anyway.

Chuck

[KDirk]

I think Barney raises a very valid point about security of information. Granted, no one has to provide full information to be published in the directory. I see a fair number of listings with no phone number or no email address so clearly some members opted to withhold those pieces of information.

If an online version is published, it needs to be suitably access controlled. Of course, nothing online is ever completely secure, and there are varying degrees of effectiveness for user authentication systems. In any case, a fully open directory would be a prime target for bots to cull names, addresses, phone numbers and email addresses. Heck, I don't put my email or phone number in public posts here for that very reason. Those who do are taking a risk of much aggravation IMO.

One possible solution is to have members specify (perhaps via the BCA website) whether they want a print edition or electronic (cd/dvd) based edition sent. I imagine this would reduce the number of paper copies a fair amount. That said, for something like the membership directory, I prefer a hard copy. Reading information off the screen for something like that just doesn't do it for me. If done in PDF format, prints could be made of selected pages or the whole book.

I don't know what process is utilized to publish the paper directory, but if it originates in electronic form (done on computer then sent electronically to offset press) it would be rather easy to just take the digital pre-press data and output it as PDF and voila, a digital version of the directory is done and ready to burn to disc.

Just some thoughts.

KDirk

[Guest dpannell]

Another thought....someone here in this country grows the trees, someone makes the paper, someone prints the books..... = JOBS

[padgett]

Just an observation but if it were a scanned .pdf like the FSMs, it could be read or printed but not extracted electronically without an OCR which are never completely accurate (and there are ways to block OCRs).

[NYBobP]

I'm not sure what an FSM or OCR is, but know for a fact that many BCA members (believe it or not) still don't have a computer, including the President of the CNY chapter. It's going to be tough to have just a electronic version when some members only means of communication is a rotary dial phone.

[Ronnie]

I suggest having boxes on the registration and renewal form that could be checked to specify how members would like to receive the lists and other items.

How do you want to receive membership lists, etc.?

<label for="qr_quickreply"><input disabled="disabled" name="quickreply" value="1" id="qr_quickreply" accesskey="w" tabindex="4" type="checkbox"> E-mail .pdf format</label>

<label for="qr_quickreply"><input disabled="disabled" name="quickreply" value="1" id="qr_quickreply" accesskey="w" tabindex="4" type="checkbox"> US Mail paper format.</label>

[padgett]

Surface Mail - slight additional charge

[Guest reatta1991]

IMHO the printed roster is NOT a waste of time or resources. I personally carry the paper version when away from my neighborhood at a show or on a tour. Just in case! And, while I do use a computer, I really don't want to fill up my scarce hard drive space with a roster or use up two ink cartridges and a ream of paper to print it myself.

Plus, the roster itself has been/presumably still is a member benefit, paid for by our dues. Charging extra for a paper copy of something already provided for by our dues just doesn't sound "quite right." Why penalize the members who are not into computers?

If the electronic roster is the option selected, thus cutting expenses, will our membership dues be reduced accordingly?

One suggestion made in another post was to give members the option of how they want to receive the roster. It could be sent by CD/DVD to those who want it electronic, and mailed to those who prefer that format. Costs should be reduced somewhat, as there are some who carry laptops/netbooks and find electronic format to be more convenient.

If the issues above can be resolved, and the Board decides to completely do away with the paper version, I would suggest an "opt-out" box to check on the renewal form, to allow any member with privacy concerns to simply delete his/her name from it. That would end the issue for them. (Just make sure that all opt-outs are scrupulously honored...)

Just my $.02 worth...probably only worth $.02!!!!

[padgett]

Heck I have the service manuals on a MicroSD card I swap between machines. Is even usable on a 7" Android tablet.

[Barney Eaton]

I also failed to mention a related issue. One of the last things I did while on the board was make a motion that we (the BCA) do a trial electronic Bugle to foreign members.

That passed and went into affect sometime last year but I have not heard the results.

We have a fair number of BCA members in Europe, Canada, and Australia. It takes the hard copy 4-8 weeks to get to these members and especially if they are looking for parts, they are probably sold by the time they got a hard copy.

The plan was to do the trial, then with input from the foreign members, the BCA Board would make a decision on the next step......... which has either not been made or nothing has been reported.

I could forsee three possible membership (cost) levels. Standard as it is today with the member receiving the Bugle via mail (the total Bugle cost is 70% of the BCA budget)

A second level would be both a hard copy of the Bugle and electronic access.

the last level would be an electronic only Bugle. The Board has had over a year to look at the cost and possible charges to the membership, so maybe someday something will be published in the Bugle about the options.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I agree with 1991. Any way, looks like it is only printed about every three years. My last one is '08

Ben

[wws944]

If the BCA wishes to attract more "younger" members, e.g., those under age 60, adaption to electronic means is essential. Believe it or not, the local BCA chapter here, in Silicon Valley no less, does not even have a web site. This is an essential and low cost way to attracting new members! (And yes, I should probably join the local chapter and volunteer to help them out with it. But still...)

[NCReatta]

I, being one of the youngest BCA members, like the idea of an online membership roster. Though, I also like the print version (good bed-time reading). As we speak, I'm building a website for our local BCA chapter (99% of the members in my chapter have access to a computer). The thing I found interesting in bringing up the idea of a website to our chapter is this:

Everyone was in favor of it, and thought it was a fantastic idea, but had just never thought of it before.

This leads me to think that if given the choice on the registration form, more people may choose a digital copy. They've just never been given that option before.

I like Ronnie's idea of the two boxes, but I think there should be a third box that you can check to have both online and print.

Another reason I like the print roster.. I take it with me whenever I go on a trip somewhere. And sometimes, if I have a few extra hours on my hands, I'll call up someone near by who has Reattas (or any other type of Buick I'm interested in.. Yes.. I do have other loves. ), and stop by. Quite handy when you're not at a compooter...

Just my 2 cents on the subject too..

EDIT: I also just thought of another thing on the side of a print copy.. It's very easy to flip though the pages, and to dog-ear them for future reference. While this is all possible in PDF format, it would take a little more effort.

Edited August 11, 2011 by NCReatta (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

I'm not a member of the clubs so I don't have a horse in this race but... I will state for the record that I think membership lists being distributed is a bad thing. They always seem to fall into the wrong hands and end up being a list for spammers and scammers. If I were a parts vendor I would be chomping at the bits to get my hands on that list so I could spam every email on it to push the sale of my parts.

I have 300+ users registered on ReattaOwner.com, including their email addresses. Some of the folks on this forum might be on that list. I would never consider posting that list or giving out any of the users email addresses. I really don't understand why any club would want to give out a similar list that could be copied and redistributed.

My suggestion for the club would be to put the list on a password protected page available to members only and mail out lists to members without computers for free upon request. Just my 2¢.

[padgett]

Agree with Ronnie with the caveat that a list can be posted electronically such that it can be read by a human and sections printed but not extracted easily by a machine. The techniques are fairly simple.

For that matter the printed roster could easily be scanned and passed through an OCR designed to extract text if someone really wanted the BCA e-mail list.

So lets put aside those arguments please. The fact is that the world is going electronic and the distinction between devices is blurring (my big TV is also internet and telephone aware, when a call comes in it displays on the screen allong with CallerID, a geat boon to the hearing impared.

I can also do all of the standard stuff including keeping service manuals handy and posting here with a $139 (free shipping) Android tablet that fits in my pocket. It also displays on my TV. It can play movies from the same chip (about the size of my little finger nail) that has albums that play in my car. With a dongle it can interact with a cell phone but I generally use a MiFi device.

That MiFi device can support five PCs, has coverage everywhere in the US I have been including places that have no cell phone coverage with 10x the bandwith that the whole UN building in NY had in 1994 and is the size of a credit card. For that matter, the average cell phone today has more computing power than the typical PC did at the Millenium.

All of this is converging at an accellerated rate and is built into nearly every device so to say that some BCA members do not have computers means they probably just do not know they do.

[wws944]

...All of this is converging at an accellerated rate and is built into nearly every device so to say that some BCA members do not have computers means they probably just do not know they do.

Methinks the "some of our older members don't have/want computers" remark is just silly excuse-speak for "no one has bothered to do it yet". Maybe a small sample, but it seems like many in my parents generation, now in their '70s and '80s, are quite comfortable with computers. Many are even on facebook!

Two other related observations: While the BCA web site is a great start, and one can join/renew online, there should be a connection to allow you to join a SIG like the Reatta Division at the same time. Silly to have mail a separate paper check these days. The extra effort probably keeps some people from joining the SIG. Likewise, some clubs (for example, the Porsche Club of America) also include a membership to the local chapter/region as part of the regular dues. Am sure a BCA policy like this would greatly help the local chapters - where the grassroots really start...

[Bill Stoneberg]

While the BCA web site is a great start, and one can join/renew online, there should be a connection to allow you to join a SIG like the Reatta Division at the same time.

Good Idea here... Does the Reatta Division have the ability to handle electronic payments ??

[Guest reatta1991]

My thoughts on the roster book are stated above, so I'll say no more on that. However now it seems we've moved into the topic of electronic payments for BCA and SIG memberships.

Executive Position Summary: I'm no fan of electronic payments, period.

My credit card numbers (NOT the cards themselves) have been stolen a couple of times in the past three or four years (totaling about $3,000). Nobody was able to "prove" exactly where the thefts occurred, but the bank thought it was online related. (FYI all sites I've ordered from were secure sites, with the "https" and little lock showing.)

As a result of this, I now do as little as possible electronically, regardless of whether it's PayPal or just doing a credit card purchase directly with a vendor. Too many chances for another stolen credit card number.

While it's true that I've suffered no monetary loss for the thefts, only having to file the proper paperwork each time (which resulted in chargebacks to the vendors), it seems that I've been blacklisted by one of them, who shall remain nameless. I've tried to place 2 additional on line orders with them (at separate times), and both orders were summarily cancelled for no reason, with no response to my emails about the order status. Coincidence? Repeated email failure? Or, retribution for the chargeback? Don't know, don't care. They obviously don't need my business, and I certainly can find (and have found) the products elsewhere.

But rest assured, I'm now very reluctant to use credit cards for any online purchases. I order as little as possible on line, to minimize my exposure to another theft, and will continue to mail checks for memberships in my various clubs, including all the ones in my automatic signature below.

Hopefully none of them will ever refuse to accept my checks by mail!

Have a great weekend...

[NCReatta]

Good Idea here... Does the Reatta Division have the ability to handle electronic payments ??

At the moment, the Reatta Division does not accept electronic payments. However, I would highly recommend it. I would use it as it would be much more convenient for me. Paypal is about as secure as you can get.

[padgett]

Just an aside but the member does not need to have PayPal to use it, it can be entered directly either through a URL or an e-mail invoice. There is a service chage assessed to the merchant, I think it is 3%.

[PVRed90]

Thanks everyone for the good discussion. I like the idea of having the option to get paper mailed or .pdf emailed. I personally don't mind if I was subsidzing those who receive the paper copy, if I decided to get it emailed. The cost savings may allow the club to keep dues where they are for a while as the cost of the Bugle and other things goes up. I think those people who think by keeping it only in paper form that it provides more security and confidentiality are fooling themselves. The existance of a copy in any form opens it up for misuse by those who are motivated to do so.

FYI. For those who would like to take a copy with them on trips, the .pdf version could be downloaded to your smart phone and you would have that capability. The world is changing. If this club is going to live as long as the Buick will be collected, we need to think about what younger members want from the club.

[bhclark]

Every time I'm reminded by a division, chapter, etc that my dues are overdue, I remind them that if they offered electronic payment, I would have paid early. If they are going to force me to write a check, it will have to wait until I get around to it. I think my Reatta membership is up for this reason alone. My local chapter kept bugging me about dues...I think I sent them several years worth.

It's 2011 for pete's sake. I should never have to write a check or mail a letter!

I still can't believe the number of people who are so afraid to open a paypal account or use a credit card online. How many of these people have a PO box because they are afraid of mailbox theft and burn their trash so no one can put the pieces back together from the shredder?

Paypal costs 3%? Who cares? Your money is available instantly for use at other vendors or next day by withdrawal directly to your bank account. Checks aren't free and neither are money orders. I still accept checks and money orders but am tempted to add a $5 charge since I have to go to the bank to get my money. Luckily, I have a credit union that doesn't charge a fee for talking to a teller like many banks do these days.

This paranoia over electronic media is so 1990s.

As far as the Roster...I understand the concern over the mailing list getting out. Rest assured, I already get plenty as a result of being treasurer of the '59 Division. I'm assuming it comes from the contact info posted in the Bugle or on buickclub.org. Luckily Gmail is 99% effective in screening this stuff out. If you are still using hotmail, yahoo mail or some other 1980s email program, then your spam filter may not be as accurate.

I would suggest the roster be made available by request only. No need to mail 8000 copies out if 5000 of them are immediately tossed in the trash. If there are ways to encode the roster on DVD so that it can't be easily extracted by bots, then the cost of that would be minuscule compared to the printed roster and should be sent annually to all members that request it. (per the optional check boxes listed above)

If we are serious about attracting younger members, then we need to offer electronic solutions across the board.

Edited August 15, 2011 by bhclark (see edit history)

[Guest Double M]

Yes, it is a waste of time. That comes from someone that makes printed pieces for a living.

To those defending those without a computer...

Remember in the 50's when the phone was something new? Back then this may have seemed like a novelty and a luxury by some, but...

Everyone has a phone now. If you dont have a computer today then it is the same as not having a phone back then... and you are not really part of society and as a result will not benefit from being connected to rest of the world, or the rest of The Buick Club.

Dont shoot me, I'm only the messenger!

[padgett]

Actually protection from bots is trivial, just see the FSMs on Reatta.net. Major issue of this simplicity is that it becomes unsearchable.

Of course if you use LZ compression, you could seperate the dictionary from the pointers and create a read-only application...

[Ronnie]

For membership lists, text pages scanned to images and posted in a password protected directory would be good enough to stop bots and spammers from easily accessing the data. Pages scanned to images could still be printed off if needed but it would not be easy for spammers to copy and paste the data without using OCR software on the pages. Don't think spammers would not go to that much trouble.

Lack of search would not be a problem if names were in alphabetical order in the list.

[Guest 39cent]

AHHHH ---- things sure different in the cyber era

[ol' yeller]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

[Barney Eaton]

WOW.... ghost do come back.

I ask at this years Buick meet if it was known the number of BCA members that chose the electronic version of the Bugle and was told that it was less than 200 out of 7500 members.... that is under 3%. At least now BCA members have a choice and as we get more young electronic savy members the number may go up.

Don't even joke about taking the hard copy Bugle away from BCA members.

[padgett]

Just as a point, in 2013 8" tablets running full Windows 8.1 are a reality and the service manual for my '12 heep is only available on CD. I now have over 300 albums, all 14 episodes of Firely, and the movie serenity on one microSD chip the size of my little finger nail.

I just bought a Chrysler Crossfire Coupe with a 6 speed (was looking for another Fiero GT but got sidetracked) & a good part of the decision was the availability online of owner's manuals, parts books, TSBs, and FSMs all in searchable .pdf format (not scans like ours).

Sometimes I despair of friends who are technologically inept (and seem to make a virtue of it).

[Guest my3buicks]

I am about as tech savvy as they come, and have 4 different devices I access the internet from, but I still want my hard copy of the Bugle and roster.

[Guest billys]

My thoughts on the roster book are stated above, so I'll say no more on that. However now it seems we've moved into the topic of electronic payments for BCA and SIG memberships.

Executive Position Summary: I'm no fan of electronic payments, period.

My credit card numbers (NOT the cards themselves) have been stolen a couple of times in the past three or four years (totaling about $3,000). Nobody was able to "prove" exactly where the thefts occurred, but the bank thought it was online related. (FYI all sites I've ordered from were secure sites, with the "https" and little lock showing.)

As a result of this, I now do as little as possible electronically, regardless of whether it's PayPal or just doing a credit card purchase directly with a vendor. Too many chances for another stolen credit card number.

While it's true that I've suffered no monetary loss for the thefts, only having to file the proper paperwork each time (which resulted in chargebacks to the vendors), it seems that I've been blacklisted by one of them, who shall remain nameless. I've tried to place 2 additional on line orders with them (at separate times), and both orders were summarily cancelled for no reason, with no response to my emails about the order status. Coincidence? Repeated email failure? Or, retribution for the chargeback? Don't know, don't care. They obviously don't need my business, and I certainly can find (and have found) the products elsewhere.

But rest assured, I'm now very reluctant to use credit cards for any online purchases. I order as little as possible on line, to minimize my exposure to another theft, and will continue to mail checks for memberships in my various clubs, including all the ones in my automatic signature below.

Hopefully none of them will ever refuse to accept my checks by mail!

Have a great weekend...

well said

[Barney Eaton]

Brian made a good point about using Paypal.... the 3% is charged to the receiver, but as a sender, the Reatta Div $10 dues would amount to 30 cents. Sending a check cost the price of an envelope, plus the 47 cents for a stamp, and time. If you could send the Reatta Div (BCA and others) Pay pal, just add the 3% and you are still ahead.

[farnelle]

Good Idea here... Does the Reatta Division have the ability to handle electronic payments ??

Bill, the Reatta Division can handle electronic payments as long as it is Pay Pal.