Most Underrated Car's

[Dynaflash8]

The 1941 Buick Roadmaster 70 Series which had more horsepower than any standard equipped production car built in America in 1941. These cars came standard with dual two-barrell carburetors that worked like and pre-dated four barrell carburetors by years. They came standard equipped with a form of positive crankcase ventilation, pred-dating the industry by years. They came standard equipped with a form of ram air induction, again pre-dating the industry by years and years. They originally were delivered with a 10 to 1 compression ratio as well. They shared a body with Cadillac while outperforming Cadillac in horsepower by 15 and top speed as well as acceleration. This engine was used by race cars, cross country busses. Need I say more?

[Guest]

but can't understand why the dime-a-dozen muscle cars that followed are valued so much more, given that the performance of the big beasts was nothing to sneeze at.

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Those cars you mention were cheaper, had just as good quality, smaller, lighter,and........................FASTER than the larger cars. Because they were cheaper they could sometimes blow the doors off much more expensive cars way out of their price range, meaning exotics and sports cars. So after your new Buick GNX blows the doors off a XKE that the guy in the Jag. paid three times as much for, those memories of AFFORDABLE horsepower stay with us ( $299.00 dollar GTO option on a Pontiac LeMans). When we grow older and can afford extras such as a antique car we naturally return to what made us feel and look good. The people I just mentioned are at that stage of life these days.

[Guest Siegfried]

Hi Stock_Steve & Greg.

I have to agree on the 912 Porsche. I had one for awhile in the early 70tys until some dingbat stole it, and wrecked it. Quite a lose as I really loved that car, but not quite as much as Volkswagens. Which brings me to what I consider to be the ‘ULTIMATE’ Underrated Car (Stock_Steve you won’t be surprised!)?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Here goes. How about the Karmann Ghia? The Karmann Ghia is a true coach built car. It was designed by Ghia of Italy, built by Karmann of Germany, and sold by Volkswagen of Germany. In my opinion the Karmann Ghia is treated poorly because a lot of people simply call it 'Another VW' which it is not. Yes, the Karmann Ghia is built on a modified Beetle chassis. The engine, transmission, braking, and suspension are standard Volkswagen, but that is where the similarity's come to a screaming halt. The Karmann Ghia could just as easily been built on a modified Porsche chassis, and powered by Porsche components. Imagine that! I also seem to recall an article that appeared in 'Auto Weekly' several years hence. The title was 'Prettier Than Any Porsche, Just Not As Fast' (the title may be slightly off). The feature car was a Karmann Ghia coupe from the early 60tys.

Here are the approximate numbers for all three models of the Karmann Ghia series.<o:p></o:p>

Karmann Ghia Type 1 Coupe, 1956 to 1974, approximately 340,000. <o:p></o:p>

Karmann Ghia Type 1 Cabriolet, 1958 to 1973, approximately 82,000.<o:p></o:p>

Karmann Ghia Type 3 Coupe, 1962 to 1969, approximately 43,000.<o:p></o:p>

The Karmann Ghia Type 3 was not imported to the USA. It was built on a Volkswagen Type 3 chassis, and used Type 3 mechanical components. <o:p></o:p>

Fewer than half a million production over 18 years? I believe that should qualify the Karmann Ghia as a fairly rare model. Since most of the Karmann Ghia Production came to the USA the Karmann Ghia was familiar sight, and perhaps this helps make it Underrated and Un-appreciated. <o:p></o:p>

My other choice would be AMC's from the 70tys. Gremlins, Hornets, Pacers. All very much underrated.

[Matt Harwood]

As someone who looks at the market regularly, there are a few cars that I might identify as having potential, although I might be a heretic for several.

One, the Corvette ZR-1 from 1990-95. Prices are way down, and these are amazing, fast, competent, reliable cars. There's just no way they can't go up from here.

Two, the last generation of Toyota Supra turbos. Yes, a Japanese car that was produced 15 years ago. If you can find one that hasn't been modified, buy it. I can almost guarantee these will be $100,000 cars in 10 years. They've become iconic.

Three, the early Buick Rivieras, already mentioned, are a good bet. Buy now while they're affordable, because the day is fast approaching when the nice ones will be $50,000. Remember when you could buy all the Continental Mark IIs you wanted for $20,000? Good luck finding one today...

[Guest]

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I agree the Ghia is underrated, I mean this car is a coach built monocoque ! Yet still, as you say "complete VW running gear". There is nothing wrong with VW running gear and even in the very early 356 Porsche's used VW components, and so they should after all the Porsche design firm designed all of it anyway. Heck in the early cars the engines interchange very easily.

Don

[Guest greg walsh]

I agree about the Ghia. My son and I restored a 69, it's really a nice car. I just wish he hadn't talked me into doing an air ride suspention. It looks cool when lowered but kinda crooked when raised up a bit, still not bad. Before the air ride, he got into an accident going to a car show with a late model Mercedes that almost totaled his Ghia. Luckily a friend had a Ghia and we used his frame. The Mercedes guys insurance gave us about 10,000 to get his Ghia restored again.he was just lucky he wasn't hit in the driver's door!

[stock_steve]

Jim, Don, Greg--I have to agree--the VW KG is a great & under-appreciated classic!

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I know where there's a rusty Karmann Ghia convertible in a Philly junkyard. Next time I'm there I'll get a picture for some of you underraters.

[Guest]

I have a factory body manual for the Karmann Ghia. One picture shows all the welded seams with measurements so you would know where you cut to put in a patch panel. The seams are depicted as zig-zag lines. The car body picture looks like Frankenstein's monsters body part sutures. Amazing, all this is covered with lead and blended seamless. Great coachwork at such a modest price.

Don

[stock_steve]

I know where there's a rusty Karmann Ghia convertible in a Philly junkyard. Next time I'm there I'll get a picture for some of you underraters.

Do we detect a little sarcasm there, Dave? Ha ha! Yes, when KGs rusted, they didn't fool around! Touche'!

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Some of my posts have had sarcasm but I actually do know of a Karmann convertible rustbucket,stay tuned. How's that 400% connecticut collector tax coming,Steve(that's a little sarcastic)

[stock_steve]

Some of my posts have had sarcasm but I actually do know of a Karmann convertible rustbucket,stay tuned. How's that 400% connecticut collector tax coming,Steve(that's a little sarcastic)

Not a problem Dave--I was just having some good-natured fun there. And there certainly is no question the Karmann Ghias liked to rust.

I haven't heard much about our wonderful anti-old car hobby legislative assault lately--though I am sure it's on its way. Want to trade governors? Ours never met a tax he didn't like, unfortunately...

[Guest Siegfried]

Hi Guys, Thanks for responding on my Karmannn Ghia comments. Yes, I agree on the rust issue. Most of the cars built by Karmann had major rust out problems. Remember the 914 Porsche? Body by Karmann, designed by Audi, engine by Volkswagen, and sold by Porsche. How about the Volkswagen Scirocco? When was the last time you saw one of these? Truly a performance Volkswagen, and I believe it preceeded the Rabbit GTI.

Karmann Ghia's are really gorgeous (in my opinion). This is a car you either love, or hate as there never seems to be a middle ground for most people. Much like a 356 series Porsche. For me the Karmann Ghia will always be one of my favorites. I imagine that is why as second owner of my 1963 coupe I have willed my car to my family, and I know one of them will someday be its caretaker. Sure hope it eventually is my granson.

Thanks for the responses.

[Guest greg walsh]

How about a 60 Renault Daulphine? I had one in high school that my dad paid $50 for. The guy he bought it from had traded a shotgun for it. My first foreign car. I found out a guy at school had a 59 that wanted to race me, I should have taken him up on that.

[Mahoning63]

Any 1970's Lincoln or Imperial/New Yorker. These are even more underappreciated than the 1960's luxury cars.

Agree completely!! Some specific years for these and a few others:

- 1972 Lincoln Continental sedan and coupe (remove the appliques on the headlight doors!)

- 1968, '74-75 Imperial sedan

- 1968, 69 Buick Wildcat 4 dr hardtop

- 1969, 70 Olds Delta 88 4 dr hardtop

- 1969 Eldorado

- 1957 Olds Ninety Eight 4 dr hardtop (blank in the backlight quarter windows)

- 1970 Riviera (if customized on the front)

- 1971 Mustang convertible

[Guest Siegfried]

Here's a thought. Almost all foreign cars are underrated, and put down, or ignored by domestic car guys. The exceptions are usually the high dollar machines, the exotics, British sports cars, and a very few average cars that were popular over here. If you get overseas you'll probably discover that they really love our domestic's as much as they love their own country's product. I guess some of us are just more open minded, and accepting of what we don't own, or collect. Just my obsevation over the years.

[Guest]

Here's a thought. Almost all foreign cars are underrated, and put down, or ignored by domestic car guys. The exceptions are usually the high dollar machines, the exotics, British sports cars, and a very few average cars that were popular over here. If you get overseas you'll probably discover that they really love our domestic's as much as they love their own country's product. I guess some of us are just more open minded, and accepting of what we don't own, or collect. Just my obsevation over the years.

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I find your statement depends on where you live in the U.S.A.

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

Here's a thought. Almost all foreign cars are underrated, and put down, or ignored by domestic car guys. The exceptions are usually the high dollar machines, the exotics, British sports cars, and a very few average cars that were popular over here. If you get overseas you'll probably discover that they really love our domestic's as much as they love their own country's product. I guess some of us are just more open minded, and accepting of what we don't own, or collect. Just my obsevation over the years.

Part of that perception maybe the fact that (at least with the Japanese cars), the Japanese don't make / haven't made many "collectible" cars. On the other hand, you see LOTS of Japanese "Daily Driver" cars on road everyday.

[Guest]

Hi Guys, Thanks for responding on my Karmannn Ghia comments. Yes, I agree on the rust issue. Most of the cars built by Karmann had major rust out problems. Remember the 914 Porsche? Body by Karmann, designed by Audi, engine by Volkswagen, and sold by Porsche. How about the Volkswagen Scirocco? When was the last time you saw one of these? Truly a performance Volkswagen, and I believe it preceeded the Rabbit GTI.

Karmann Ghia's are really gorgeous (in my opinion). This is a car you either love, or hate as there never seems to be a middle ground for most people. Much like a 356 series Porsche. For me the Karmann Ghia will always be one of my favorites. I imagine that is why as second owner of my 1963 coupe I have willed my car to my family, and I know one of them will someday be its caretaker. Sure hope it eventually is my granson.

Thanks for the responses.

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Here is another car with VW running gear/platform with the same recognition problem as the Karmann Ghia .--1956 Rometch--

http://www.centralcoastvwclub.com/images/stories/eric56.jpg

Edited May 20, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[stock_steve]

At least one Karmann Ghia at Stowe yesterday, per Bill Clark's photos (link to his collection of photos is in the Stowe thread in the "Meets & Tours" section):

http://rustyrestorations.org/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=img&id=201

Oops--and another:

http://rustyrestorations.org/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=img&id=193

Edited May 22, 2011 by stock_steve (see edit history)

[padgett]

I generally stay with what I have parts for. At one point that was almost all Pontiac 400s (now just have one car but two spare engines). Now it is Buick 3800s. Do feel that cars in their twenties are generally the "best buys" because they have little "cred". Yet. Are enough "beaters" on the market to keep the prices of nice ones down. Keep in mind that at one point you could buy a real Duesy for under $1,000 because of the expense to maintain.

Must admit an attraction to very low production cars & prefer upscale with a manual transmission which eventually becomes "rare" add in a requirement for a/c (everything in the sig has a/c) & numbers go way down.

Guess in some ways I am still looking for the '59 XK-150S I paid $1500 for & got me through college but 3800s come close.

Right now am vacillating about an Allante (talk about undervalued...). These are the good old days.

[tbirdman]

I like the 30s Auburn and was considering buying one, but they are just too small for me. Great styling though. And you can get a Packard 120 convertible for ~$60K which seems very reasonable. Also the 32 Packard light eight seems to be quite a bargain at <$100K.

[Guest Gman1023]

This is a fun thread, I might as well throw my hat into this ring. I agree with the comments that luxury and near luxury cars are often the most undervalued. Luxury cars are always undervalued when compared to muscle cars of the same era, especially when you consider that the luxury cars often got bigger engines than the smaller lighter Mustangs, Cudas, Chevelles etc did. Cadillacs have developed a strong following though, leaving the rest, particularly the near-luxury prestige brands holding the bag. Full-size Buicks and Oldses of almost any era are undervalued, IMO, but here are some specifics:

-1940's era Buicks, not including convertibles. Often very nice, well preserved original drivers can be had at or near $10,000.

-1959-60 Olds and Buicks, again convertibles notwithstanding. Sure, they may not be the most beautiful or iconic of cars from the period, but those are some beautiful and unique designs.

-1964 and later Imperials. The 50's and early 60's Imperial have at least some following, but the square Imperials often seem to go wanting at five grand. The 60's Imperials have a reputation as some of the safest and most reliable cars of the time too, not to mention the fact that Imperials always sold in smaller numbers than Cadillacs or Lincolns.

-I think someone already mentioned this, but 1977-79 Lincoln Town Cars and Town Coupes. Original, well-optioned examples with very low miles can be had for well under ten grand.

-1977-90 B/D-body GM cars, particularly the Buicks and Oldses. Sure, they were all the same, but they are reliable and generally well-made for the time. Supply is likely a factor as to why prices haven't risen, but as time goes on I can especially see the earlier (ie: 1977-79) examples becoming collectible, since those were the years with the bigger engines available. The HT-4100 Cadillacs here notwithstanding.

-Lastly, I'd like to second the Lincoln Mark VII. They are great, reliable cars with style, class and a lot of features for their time. Plus, they don't have a lot of the problems that the later Mark VIII's did.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Gman1023
Clarification (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

Not the rear wheel drive Buick and Olds from 1980 to whenever the front drive cars took over and got rid of that awful lockup torque converter. I had a 1981 Olds 98 Regency Coupe that was a beautiful car, very low mileage and well styled but I couldn't stand the lockup torque converter. Somehow I forgot the awful 1980 Buick Century I bought new. Wayne Burgess has the Olds now and loves it. I have a high mileage 1969 Buick Electra convertible now without a lock up torque converter and I'd rather pay for the gas.

[Larry Schramm]

There were (maybe still are) available new memory calibration program read only memory (PROM) chips available that would minimize the converter lock up "chuggle"

[Guest]

Not the rear wheel drive Buick and Olds from 1980 to whenever the front drive cars took over and got rid of that awful lockup torque converter. I had a 1981 Olds 98 Regency Coupe that was a beautiful car, very low mileage and well styled but I couldn't stand the lockup torque converter. Somehow I forgot the awful 1980 Buick Century I bought new. Wayne Burgess has the Olds now and loves it. I have a high mileage 1969 Buick Electra convertible now without a lock up torque converter and I'd rather pay for the gas.

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Those lock up converters were great for mileage, but on hills they were always hunting going in and out of lock up wearing the clutch out. The converters would hunt back and forth and most people just drove them without concern until failure. On the first and every one I've had since all I would do is get to the A/T harness and put a switch in to control when it would lock up. After that little operation they would last as long as any A/T.

[R W Burgess]

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Those lock up converters were great for mileage, but on hills they were always hunting going in and out of lock up wearing the clutch out. The converters would hunt back and forth and most people just drove them without concern until failure. On the first and every one I've had since all I would do is get to the A/T harness and put a switch in to control when it would lock up. After that little operation they would last as long as any A/T.

I had a serious lock up converter on an 80 Caprice that I put a switch on. I've been used to shifting gears all my life, so I just knock the automatics in 3rd gear now when going through towns.:confused:

My youngest son did that last year while driving a friend's car. Freaked the owner out. He had never seen anyone shift an automatic before.

"You sure you're not going to tear the tranny out of my old car????":o

Wayne

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So I ran though a good portion of this thread and can't believe this is not here, (I must have missed this one but I swear I thought it!)

Closed Full Classics. Like this Packard Super 8 that is for sale right on the forum:

http://forums.aaca.org/f119/1937-packard-super-8-sale-304552.html

This is one of many examples of closed cars that are Full Classics you can aqcuire and enjoy for under $25K.

BTW Wayne, thanks for posting that picture - should help Misako sell the car because a picture is worth a thousand words for sure...

[R W Burgess]

....................Closed Full Classics. Like this Packard Super 8 that is for sale right on the forum:

http://forums.aaca.org/f119/1937-packard-super-8-sale-304552.html

This is one of many examples of closed cars that are Full Classics you can aqcuire and enjoy for under $25K.

BTW Wayne, thanks for posting that picture - should help Misako sell the car because a picture is worth a thousand words for sure...

Thanks Steve. I'm afraid it will get lost in the rush, but it would not be fair to other posters to pin it.

Wayne

[poci1957]

Good point from Steve, it is certainly possible to get a full Classic sedan at a relative bargan price.

I guess Classic or postwar we could say as a group all four doors are underrated. I have always said the guy with a $5000 four door can go participate in the same car show as the guy with the $50,000 convertible and have just as much fun for 10% of the price. The convertible guy may never even put his top down either. Todd

[Guest InkedGhandi]

I feel I have to throw in my opinion here. I am only 22 so I am not as knowledgable as some of you other members. But in my personal opinion I think the later years of the classic GTO is underrated. When I had to sell mine I had to try to sell the guy because his wife wanted a classic mustang. My dog wants a classic mustang. The GTO is just in a class of its own.

[Guest Siegfried]

Helfen, You are correct. The Rometch is a beautiful true coach build with VW running gear. I accessed the web address attached to your earlier comment. Thanks.

Bob Shaill, England resident, published a book awhile back that described VW running gear based coach builts. A superb book. Bob is a very knowledgeable Volkswagen historian. At one time he published a bi-monthly magazine that dealt primarily with Volkswagens from the 30tys through the 50tys. The 60tys era was there once in awhile, but never the 70tys as I recall.

[Guest]

Helfen, You are correct. The Rometch is a beautiful true coach build with VW running gear. I accessed the web address attached to your earlier comment. Thanks.

Bob Shaill, England resident, published a book awhile back that described VW running gear based coach builts. A superb book. Bob is a very knowledgeable Volkswagen historian. At one time he published a bi-monthly magazine that dealt primarily with Volkswagens from the 30tys through the 50tys. The 60tys era was there once in awhile, but never the 70tys as I recall.

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Jim, I know the guy in the picture I posted. You should see that car in person! He also has a Kubelwagen and I think a Hebmueller

http://www.centralcoastvwclub.com/images/stories/3.jpg

Don

Edited May 26, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)