PreWar Mercedes Benz

[Davlet]

Hace u guys seen???

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/i/123788104117?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=123788104117&targetid=475515383181&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9018707&poi=&campaignid=1669934840&mkgroupid=65058350539&rlsatarget=pla-475515383181&abcId=1139296&merchantid=119138098&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLDpBRCxARIsAEENsrJ72uk6UyMB3s2fQw8ZYd_CMeSyL-PxJdcIyX_hIUWBjY4eGbGldIAaAiFEEALw_wcB

[alsancle]

15 hours ago, Davlet said:

Hace u guys seen???

 

Hey Dav,

 

I think we talked about this one or the special roadster a few pages back.   My thoughts are 1)  Well done.   2) you are 5% of the way to a complete car.

[Davlet]

True 

[540K]

Only two 500 K / 540 K up for sale in Monterey this year, both at Gooding. A gorgeous Cab C, and an ugly Cab A. I cannot recall seeing a worse paint color than what is on the Cab A. It looks like gray primer. Maybe it looks better in person. On the other hand, best color on the Cab C. As they sit, I'd take the Cab C. With a repaint I'd take the Cab A of course.

 

[Davlet]

I think i know an owner of cab c )))

[Davlet]

Looks like cab a owner was trying to make look like military from WWII colors 

[edinmass]

I have played around with the Cab C. It’s is the  best Mercedes I have ever worked on. Well sorted, (yup, I helped out), starts, drives, shifts, steers, and stops great. Almost no one will spend the money to sort these cars out..........And I can tell you straight away, this is the best there is. No excuses, history from new, always cherished, and lovingly maintained by the current owner, who has had a 500/540 in the garage since he was born.........simply none better. Ed

[alsancle]

The two cars are dimensionally identical and practically mechanically identical.   The hoods would interchange,  but the low raked windshield and lower roofline makes quite a  difference on the Cab A.   That is why a RHD Cab A that probably needs 700-800 worth of restoration to be the same as the Cab C would be worth twice as much money.

 

The 5 speed is rare on the Cab A,  and having the original engine in such a late car is even rarer.   Would be interesting to drive to see how it compares with the 4 speed that was in 90% of the cars.

 

 

[alsancle]

Dav,   you know th Cab C was a US delivery car.  No war time action for that one.   I think the gray faded in the last 50 years on the A, it might have looked better in 1965.

 

Craig,   there is no such thing as an ugly Cab A.   It needs the sidemounts put back,  but to paraphrase a more  famous saying:  " I wouldn't throw the Cab A out of my garage".

Edited August 5, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[540K]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Craig,   there is no such thing as an ugly Cab A.   

Yeah, that's what I thought until I saw this one. I think the only way it could be worse is to add lime green polka dots and whitewalls. As is, I'd still take the Cab C regardless of value, because I'd rather see that in my garage every day.

[edinmass]

Anyone know if there are any interesting 500/540 cars showing at Pebble Beach this year?

[540K]

If you read the description: This fascinating 540 K Cabriolet A, chassis 189392, was built later in the model run, with its chassis being completed in July 1938, and its coachwork was not completed until October 1939. Built in right-hand drive, 189392 was originally intended for the British market. However, with the outbreak of WWII, German cars could not be exported to the UK and, according to documents with the car, it remained in storage, unsold throughout 1940. In April 1941, 189392 was purchased through the Mercedes-Benz dealer in Helsinki, Finland, by Baron Gustaf Wrede.

 

It is my opinion Gooding should not be advertising this car as a 1941. 1938 chassis, 1939 coachwork, sold new in 1941. I say it's a 1939.

 

408425 was started in 1939 and not completed until 1952 according to Kienle, the last 540 K ever finished. I think Kienle calls it a 1939/52 which seems cumbersome but descriptive. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by 540K (see edit history)

[STREAMLINER]

The AUFTRAGS № 286828 is for 1938.

Mercedes never sold a car without a finished body.

Even if the body was ready in 1939, the AUFTRAGS number should have numbers, which are relevant for 1939 starting from 288xxx.

In 1940/41, these AUFTRAGS numbers started from 301xxx.

In 1941. AUFTRAGS 321xxx  -  343xxx

[alsancle]

Mercedes dated a car based on when it sold, not when it was constructed.  There is a lot of variation of features vs “year” but ultimately the chassis number tells all.

My one question would be the 5 speed on such an early chassis.  That seems to be an anomaly.

[STREAMLINER]

some 1937 models also have 5 speeds. 5-speed gearbox was available already in 1936/37 under the order

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, MB Streamliner said:

some 1937 models also have 5 speeds. 5-speed gearbox was available already in 1936/37 under the order

 

You learn something new every day.  I never paid attention,  but it seemed like every 5 speed car was a late chassis number.   The transmission is indicated on one of the build/order sheets as an option?

[alsancle]

As an example,  the Cab B Bonhams sold a couple of years ago 408429 had the 5 speed original.   Also, the King of Jordon Cab A was originally  a 5 speed (now 4 speed) and that chassis number was 408386.

 

Just two examples, but I have always assumed the 5 speed was only in the 408 block of chassis numbers.

Edited August 6, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[STREAMLINER]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

Mercedes dated a car based on when it sold, not when it was constructed.  There is a lot of variation of features vs “year” but ultimately the chassis number tells all.

My one question would be the 5 speed on such an early chassis.  That seems to be an anomaly.

These cars were bought very quickly. There was no problem changing the steering wheel from right to left. I suspect that the chassis number belongs to another car

[8E45E]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, 540K said:

If you read the description: This fascinating 540 K Cabriolet A, chassis 189392, was built later in the model run, with its chassis being completed in July 1938, and its coachwork was not completed until October 1939. Built in right-hand drive, 189392 was originally intended for the British market. However, with the outbreak of WWII, German cars could not be exported to the UK and, according to documents with the car, it remained in storage, unsold throughout 1940. In April 1941, 189392 was purchased through the Mercedes-Benz dealer in Helsinki, Finland, by Baron Gustaf Wrede.

 

It is my opinion Gooding should not be advertising this car as a 1941. 1938 chassis, 1939 coachwork, sold new in 1941. I say it's a 1939.

 

408425 was started in 1939 and not completed until 1952 according to Kienle, the last 540 K ever finished. I think Kienle calls it a 1939/52 which seems cumbersome but descriptive. 

Thanks for the history lesson. 

 

How many 540K were sold new in North America in those years?  I know there was a Mercedes Benz distributor in New York City and Los Angeles at the time, so the must have moved a small number of them.  Were any delivered to Canada?

 

Craig

[alsancle]

Mitropa was the US distributor/dealer, located on Park Ave in NY in the 20s and 30s.    I know of no other North American distributor.

 

From 36 to 39,  they sold around 8-10 500k/540k cars in total.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Mitropa was the US distributor/dealer, located on Park Ave in NY in the 20s and 30s.    I know of no other North American distributor.

 

From 36 to 39,  they sold around 8-10 500k/540k cars in total.

 

 

The American left hand cars are much more deseriable in the states..........both from a historical and a drivability reasons...........they don't change hands very often from what I have seen over the last ten years. 

[jeff_a]

I found a photo of what looks like a Mercedes. Supposed to be at a 1959/1960 car show in the States. Is this a real car?

Too early for replicas, but I have not seen a fender arrangement like that.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

Real car. Late 20ies 710 SS type with Sindelfingen factory tourer body. Its not a one-off body, I think there are probably a handful of them still existing today. Here's the car displayed in the Deutsches Museum, Munich since the 1950ies.

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, alsancle said:

Mitropa was the US distributor/dealer, located on Park Ave in NY in the 20s and 30s.    I know of no other North American distributor.

 

From 36 to 39,  they sold around 8-10 500k/540k cars in total.

Okay, thanks.

 

5746 Sunset Blvd in LA as shown in this link below must have been a selling dealer; not a West Coast distributor.

   Craig

[alsancle]

After the war. Before the war it was only Mitropa in the US.  As far as I know.

[IggyDrives]

770 D (1930)

 

 

 

[tilomagnet]

On 8/5/2019 at 10:19 PM, edinmass said:

Anyone know if there are any interesting 500/540 cars showing at Pebble Beach this year?

 

Good question. Anybody? Hoping for some rarely seen examples.

[Davlet]

In 2013 they had a list if the cars. After that they stoped publishing a list. Wasnt to many attendes )))

[jeff_a]

Thank you for the identification  of the Mercedes, Tilomagnet. The closest I had been able to find was a Sindelfingen from 1932. Your color photos add a lot! Most likely the photo I found is not of an American car show...but someplace closer to Munich. These photos were captioned "1959-60 Car Show and Museum Tour" on the Roaring Twenties Car Museum Facebook page. Here are 2 more of the same Mercedes-Benz:

.........

Edited August 10, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

OK, this is most likely the same car then. The description seems to be German also. This was one of the very few remaining Kompressor Mercedes in Germany during the early post war years. The car is still on display today in the museum (see my 2nd pic above).

[C Carl]

On 8/7/2019 at 5:37 AM, alsancle said:

Mitropa was the US distributor/dealer, located on Park Ave in NY in the 20s and 30s.    I know of no other North American distributor.

 

From 36 to 39,  they sold around 8-10 500k/540k cars in total.

 

In about this period, mid-late '30s, W.I. Simonson in Santa Monica, CA was the Mercedes-Benz dealer to the West Coast fortunate folk. Back when I was fortunate enough to be rather mobile, I found Simonson to give excellent service. I wondered at the time about the cars and clientele in the years while the war became ever more imminent. At the moment my iPad is making my life difficult, so I am unable to verify my memory regarding the exact year W.I. Simonson began.

 

The 1930 SS 38/250 pictured may be the more typical Sindelfingen Tourer. It certainly is a more graceful iteration than that of the 1959-60 car show. This car was originally white with red leather. It carried a single sidemount on the l.h. side, with a trunk mounted in the rear. Of course, the wheels were not plated, but the headlight buckets were. Speaking of headlights, they were originally Carl Zeiss - Jena. Now, I know all this, because I saw this beauty up on blocks in the hills above Pasadena, CA. It was taken down and driven twice yearly. This  was back about the time of the aforementioned car show. Many of you know : this is the biggest "Big One That Got Away" story of my life. It was generously offered to me as a friend of the family back then for $2500 ! But I was in high school, and kids then did not run around with that kind of dough (maybe the equivalent of $25,000-35,000 today). Bruce made me feel better recently when he told me that even he could not have pulled the trigger on that one then. Ironically, I was at Hershey going on 30 years ago, and found a pair of Carl Zeiss - Jena headlight lenses for sale in the "Jewelry Pavillion". Price tag offered at $2500. Apiece !    -    Carl 

 

P.S. My first sentence is in error. Simonson did start out in 1937, but as a Packard dealership. Started importing Mercedes-Benz in 1957.   -   CC 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by C Carl
Corrected by Google (see edit history)

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, C Carl said:

In about this period, mid-late '30s, W.I. Simonson in Santa Monica, CA was the Mercedes-Benz dealer to the West Coast fortunate folk. Back when I was fortunate enough to be rather mobile, I found Simonson to give excellent service. I wondered at the time about the cars and clientele in the years while the war became ever more imminent. At the moment my iPad is making my life difficult, so I am unable to verify my memory regarding the exact year W.I. Simonson began.

 

I would be surprised if they were in business before the war selling MB,  but it is always good to learn something new.   Mitropa was selling to the west coast (although not a lot of cars) so it would be odd that someone from LA would  buy in NY when there was a dealer right down the street.  

[alsancle]

Super rare 320N combination coupe doing the Pebble Beach tour.

[alsancle]

The Topper car.

 

 

[C Carl]

On 8/12/2019 at 4:08 AM, alsancle said:

 

I would be surprised if they were in business before the war selling MB,  but it is always good to learn something new.   Mitropa was selling to the west coast (although not a lot of cars) so it would be odd that someone from LA would  buy in NY when there was a dealer right down the street.  

 

I have Google working again, (actually was all along, I just didn't know where to find it after the new IOS was incorporated), and you are quite correct. W.I. Simonson did begin in 1937, but as a Packard dealership. Started importing Mercedes-Benz in 1957. As you say, always good to learn something new. Any pre-third reich M-B at The Beach this year ?    -   Carl 

[alsancle]

There is a very snazzy fleet wood bodied S that was restored by Steve Babinsky. I don’t have any pictures yet.  

 

There is a neat 200 roadster which I also need pictures of.

 

 

[STREAMLINER]

Engine is not Original

[alsancle]

500k Cab A built with 540k engine.

 

 

[alsancle]

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]