PreWar Mercedes Benz

[Davlet]

Maybach Meeting 

Hey AJ Can we rename a thePreWar Mercedes Benz and Maybach??? 

Maybach now owns by Mercedes )))

Or I can Open New PreWar Maybachh )))

Just wanted to share Photos From Maybach Meeting 

Thanks

Dav

 

[Davlet]

Done

 

 

[alsancle]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:13 PM, 8E45E said:

Currently at the Portland Art Museum (until September 16, 2018):

 

1938 540K Streamliner.   The chassis is original, but the body was lost and a new one was crafted by Mercedes Benz.

 

 

Here is a documentary on the project.   My only laugh is that they act like they didn't know what they had when the chassis # is staring at them.

 

They test drive at 185KM which is around 112mph.  Not bad for any non racecar prewar.

 

 

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Here is a documentary on the project.   My only laugh is that they act like they didn't know what they had when the chassis # is staring at them.

 

They test drive at 185KM which is around 112mph.  Not bad for any non racecar prewar.

 

 

While I'm laughing,  the other thing that was a hoot was the "discovery" that this was the Dunlop test car.  That was common knowledge to me, which I'm sure I picked up from Melin (15 or 30 years ago depending on which volume) or some other source a long time ago.    It is a well done film so I guess I should just give them credit for making the whole thing interesting.

 

My other thought was I really wish they gave us the Dyno numbers blown and unblown.  That would be cool to know.

[Davlet]

first time seen it in 2014 

Talked to builders and restoration guys.

They said they had only chassis All body was build from scratch from photos. 

 

[Davlet]

documentary on the project.is pretty good.

Should off watch it early.

And the guy from movie is on my photo

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Davlet (see edit history)

[540K]

500 K and 540 K is a featured class at Amelia 2019.

[tilomagnet]

Nice! Hopefully some rarely seen cars will be shown.

[JV Puleo]

"Aluminum bodies are only found on race cars and sports cars".... I imagine that would come as a surprise to the folks at Brewster or any other classic era coachbuilder not to mention Pierce-Arrow in the brass era. I'm sorry to say that gaffs like that make me question everything said in videos (or books) on subjects like this.

[edinmass]

I have seen the streamliner in person, it turned out nice. Too much Hollywood BS in the film, too many melodramatic plot complications. While interesting the car is not beautiful. The movie isn’t clear, they just had a frame and a few odds and ends? Hardly an authentic or heroic restoration. When I was looking at it, I thought I was looking at an intact factory special. Building it from a few scraps is fine, as long as it is presented as such. Fantastic craftsmanship, yes. Authenticity and accurate to the original, yes. It’s a new modern creation built from some very few floor sweepings, and a bunch of leftover parts. A terrific modern replica using old world craftsmanship. A fine and decent tribute car. Interesting that the factory didn’t have the people or skills to build the coachwork. Italy for the wood, and the Netherlands for the tin knocking, 185 mph is 115 MPH with a streamlined factory blower car in 1938 or 1939. It’s a slug! American factory specials almost ten years earlier would have eaten that thing for breakfast. Overall an interesting build with a few old parts with ALMOST NO historical merit. Great craftsmanship, and historical accuracy, of basically a modern car build. I wouldn’t put it on display in the museum without calling it a modern recreation or replica. 

 

If they started with an entire correct original chassis from the streamliner with “numbers matching” components all around, I wouldn’t be as critical to my comments. They obviously know exactly what is and isn’t from the original car, why not just call it out and let it be what it is...........what ever “that” is. 

 

One last comment everything MB built on the 500/540 chassis was cool when new. I like the tourenwagons, and they are far from “beautiful”. Not trying to be a downer on MB or the big pre war platform, just don’t care for how they present their car’s history accurately.

Edited November 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Ed, you know I have a MB bias but I don't really disagree with anything you said.

 

1.  Most of the "dramatization" was bs in the movie.  They had the chassis # and they knew exactly that the car was from the second they saw the tag.

 

2.  Car is interesting but not beautiful. 

 

3.  Your point that it is a recreation with some original bits is spot on.  The original chassis and tag gives it some gravitas since we know the real one is now long gone.

 

4.  Your "slug" comment is not really fair.   The 540k is basically the displacement of a 327 chevy.   It is not a mammoth engine like the Model J at 420, Packard at 473, Marmon at almost 500 and your beloved Pierce Arrow at 462 cubes.  But the car is still very heavy like the later.

 

The chassis and engine on the the special are stock.  There was no special tuning.   What other late 30s American car would go 110-115 mph besides a Model J?

[edinmass]

1932 stock automobile 24 hours AVERAGING 112 mph on a STOCK chassis. In 1933 the number was 117 mph. What’s the horse power on the 540 with no blower? And how long would it hold together at full throttle whiles it’s  engaged? The 540 is a much better chassis than anything Pierce ever put together. The 540 was designed to be a fantastic road car, which it was and is. I’m quite sure the 540 was probably three times the cost of the Pierce Arrow. The Pierce that ran on the salt flats was stock with fenders and windshield removed, and had modified carburetors. It’s an apples and oranges comparison, both were above average cars but from diffrent thoughts and designs. A 851 Auburn speedster would cost pennies on the dollar of the 540 and with just a little tweaking would do even better. That being said, the 540 and it’s coachwork was way ahead in design and craftsmanship over the Pierce or Auburn. Just my two cents.

 

By the way, 112 mph on the MB would NOT have been stock, correct?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

By the way, if I found the frame of the MB, I would have tried to build it also, but having access to a bunch of factory leftovers and extras is a great advantage, unless there are any 500/540 chassis left, and if I am not mistaken the last one was just finished being restored. Does anyone actually know what was left of the original streamliner? And is ANY 540 with a “stock” factory body been run up to maximum speed? How about horsepower with and without the blower? Any real numbers available?

Edited November 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I believe the streamliner has a factory engine/chassis combo.  It was not the final version of the transmission with the 5 speed, it was the 4 with overdrive in high.   Autocar tested in period and got a stock 540k Cab A to circle Brooklands at 104mph.

 

You could buy a 540k Cab C in NY in 1936 for $10,000.  A special Roadster was $14,000.

[edinmass]

Ok, the streamliner had 115/180 horsepower according to MB. That was stock. The car had a faster rear end ratio......2.9 instead of 3.1 so not quite stock, but we will call it that. I wasn’t aware how short the wheelbase was, it surprised me. So for it’s size and weight we shal call it “fast”. Top speed without the blower was 99mph. 112 mph with the blower engaged. Seems the “find” was in a storage area at MB and the had the rear end and the frame, that’s about it. The rest was built from factory extras they had on hand, so the car is 15 percent original components at best..........so is it “a restored original” or a modern replica. My vote is a modern replica. Still a neat car, and the build was done in 14 months, quite an accomplishment.

 

so the car probably cost 15 to 20 k. Ten times the cost of an 851 SC Auburn speedster. And five times the cost of a Pierce 12 Roadster. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Davlet]

I know where to find v12 Piarce shassis now need to think how to build a body)))

[edinmass]

How many V-12 Pierce Arrow  Chassis would you like, I can sell you half a dozen, complete, and one running.  For that matter, I can also sell you several eights. Have bodies if you need one.

Edited November 5, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Wheelbases were around 130 inches so they are not huge cars.  But they are heavy.   I didn't pickup on the 2.9 rear vs 3.1 so I guess it was not 100% stock.   Ed, you are correct that they really are not fast cars in the Model J sense, but they can maintain a high average speed as they were designed for the autobahn.

 

The thing I notice most that distinguishes a Sindelfingen bodied 540k from most cars is the fit, finish and heft of the components.  If you sit in a 540k Mercedes and then get into almost any high end American car it suffers the comparison.   The other thing I've noticed is the ride is much smoother than what you are are used to from straight axle 1930s cars.   I have a friend who says the swing rear end feels weird at speed, but I have never noticed that.

[540K]

1934 500 K coming up at Bonham's Scottsdale auction 2019. Last sold 2014 when red. No sale 2015 in green. Mayfair (UK) body.

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, 540K said:

1934 500 K coming up at Bonham's Scottsdale auction 2019. Last sold 2014 when red. No sale 2015 in green. Mayfair (UK) body.

 

 

If memory serves me, this car was part of a big collection down around Alabama/Florida way.

[alsancle]

On 11/11/2018 at 1:11 PM, alsancle said:

 

 

If memory serves me, this car was part of a big collection down around Alabama/Florida way.

 

My memory does not serve me.  It was in Kentucky for 10-15 years.  Here it is when red.

 

[alsancle]

For various reasons I thought of Warren Hoar the other day.  He was the guy for 25 years or so that you called if you needed a prewar MB part in the U.S.A.  I think he passed 10  years ago?  This was his Cab A.

 

[John_Mereness]

On 10/30/2018 at 11:21 PM, alsancle said:

 

Here is a documentary on the project.   My only laugh is that they act like they didn't know what they had when the chassis # is staring at them.

 

They test drive at 185KM which is around 112mph.  Not bad for any non racecar prewar.

 

 

Interestingly, I have seen whole cars scaled from a wheel, hubcap, knock-off, light lens and/or ... and built from one significant piece (and that may not even be salvageable).    Zakira's garage is not too far from me (5 minutes) and I love using their automotive machine tool skills (as they have dealt with every problem known to mankind).  It is not unusual to see a Miller race car get started (with a scale original drawing or photo next to it) and then stop - tends to be if it sits for a while people just start walking in and offering up parts for it - we are close to Indianapolis it is amazing what was left for years under some gasoline alley workbench to end up in someones garage and ....

 

Sidenote:  Did I see in this video their putting a tire tube in without talc-ing it ?

Edited November 23, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

25 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Sidenote:  Did I see in this video their putting a tire tube in without talc-ing it ?

 

I got the impression that almost all the video of guys working on the car was staged.

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I got the impression that almost all the video of guys working on the car was staged.

The lack of a helmet while driving on the track said same to me.

[alsancle]

Warren's car at Meadow Brook back in 2006. 

 

[Skoch]

27.07.2018 в 17: 06, 540k сказал

 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Skoch (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Nice picture!  I'm not very good with uniforms.  Is that Russian or Austrian? Russian would date the picture to the 40s?

[Skoch]

38 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Хорошая картинка!Я не очень хорошо разбираюсь в униформе.Это русский или австрийский?Русский будет датировать картину до 40-х годов?

The Soviet Sergeant. Germany or Austria, spring-summer 1945.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Skoch (see edit history)

[alsancle]

How would the car have made it back west if a Russian soldier brought it back home after the war?  It was in the U.S.A in the early 1950s.

[Skoch]

I don't know if the vehicle has been taken to the Soviet Union. No information available. The car was captured as a trophy - a fact.

License plates indicate that the car was assigned to some military unit. So machine can be take in the Soviet Union only in the composition of the this military parts of.

Pay attention to the flags. Flags were used by the highest military leadership of the Soviet army to move outside the zone of Soviet occupation. 

Given example.

In 1994 in Russia the book "170 000 kilometers with G. K. Zhukov" was published. Alexander Buchin, the driver of Marshal Zhukov in 1941-1948, wrote this book.

A quote from the book:

     «Marshal Zhukov represented the USSR in the control Council and quite often went there for meetings. Without chic: two flags on the front wings of "Packard", "Chevrolet" with guarding. That's all.»

     «Маршал Жуков представлял СССР в контрольном совете и довольно часто ездил туда на совещания. Без шика: два флага на передних крыльях "Паккарда", "Шевроле" с охраной. Все.»

 

 

[John_Mereness]

20 hours ago, Skoch said:

 

Interesting that it has a very "American" tire cover in the sidemount (lacking a wheel though) and restoration looks pretty on the money excepting bumper, spot/driving lights & horn.  Headlight bar also seems to have a bit more arch when new, though could just be the camera angle. 

[Davlet]

Most of the german actually might be all cars was stolen. And endup in different countries....

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Interesting that it has a very "American" tire cover in the sidemount

 

I don't have a factory photo handy, but they looked pretty similar to the photo.

 

 

[JonathanSierakowski]

On 11/23/2018 at 4:56 PM, alsancle said:

Nice picture!  I'm not very good with uniforms.  Is that Russian or Austrian? Russian would date the picture to the 40s?

AJ this Tourenwagen passed from the Germans to the Russians and then to the motor pool mechanic that maintained it through both regimes. Then it was purchased by the U.S. solider that brought it to the States. 

I suspect a lot of cars (and other objects) had multiple temporary owners before ultimately going one way or another, and it worked both ways. Territory first occupied by the Russians was ceded to the Allies who eventually took things West, and vice versa cars from areas first occupied by U.S. troops then ceded to Russians ultimately ended up going East. 

[Marty Roth]

14 hours ago, JonathanSierakowski said:

AJ this Tourenwagen passed from the Germans to the Russians and then to the motor pool mechanic that maintained it through both regimes. Then it was purchased by the U.S. solider that brought it to the States. 

I suspect a lot of cars (and other objects) had multiple temporary owners before ultimately going one way or another, and it worked both ways. Territory first occupied by the Russians was ceded to the Allies who eventually took things West, and vice versa cars from areas first occupied by U.S. troops then ceded to Russians ultimately ended up going East. 

 

This is the correct sequence, as I understand the chain of ownership (conservatorship?)

Thanks Jonathan,

 

Marty

[JonathanSierakowski]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:57 PM, Marty Roth said:

 

This is the correct sequence, as I understand the chain of ownership (conservatorship?)

Thanks Jonathan,

 

Marty

Nice to hear from you, Marty!  

[Skoch]

On 11/25/2018 at 4:38 PM, JonathanSierakowski said:

AJ this Tourenwagen passed from the Germans to the Russians and then to the motor pool mechanic that maintained it through both regimes. Then it was purchased by the U.S. solider that brought it to the States. 

I suspect a lot of cars (and other objects) had multiple temporary owners before ultimately going one way or another, and it worked both ways. Territory first occupied by the Russians was ceded to the Allies who eventually took things West, and vice versa cars from areas first occupied by U.S. troops then ceded to Russians ultimately ended up going East. 

Everyone thinks it's the same car?
 

[JonathanSierakowski]

2 hours ago, Skoch said:

Everyone thinks it's the same car?
 

Hi Skoch,

I am certain it is the same car; far as I know all of the 500K Tourenwagens had the standard 500K-style bumpers. The bumper on this car is of the same type used on early W07 770Ks. I cannot say if it left the factory this way, but it is the only one with this bumper which was on it in the photo you posted, on the car when it came to the United States along with the metal spare tire cover. 

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Skoch]

18 minutes ago, JonathanSierakowski said:

Hi Skoch,

I am certain it is the same car; far as I know all of the 500K Tourenwagens had the standard 500K-style bumpers. The bumper on this car is of the same type used on early W07 770Ks. I cannot say if it left the factory this way, but it is the only one with this bumper which was on it in the photo you posted, on the car when it came to the United States along with the metal spare tire cover. 

Cheers,

Jonathan

Greetings, Jonathan. I haven't seen the picture you're talking about. Can you show?