PreWar Mercedes Benz

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

I’m about as far down the food chain as you can be

 

Agreed Eddy,  but your analysis is spot on.   My feeling is that as an unmolested Cab A in similar condition it would bring more money,  but at this point the best value proposition is leaving it as is,  or restoring it back to its 1950 configuration (no sunroof and black).   Going all the way back would be the usual black hole of money and the car would always have the "story" attached to it.

[540K]

23 hours ago, alsancle said:

RM has their catalog pictures up for the coupe we discussion previously.   Originally a Cab A updated to a coupe in the early 50s by an established coachbuilder.   Very interesting and cool car which should bring a significant premium over the sidemount (deleted) Cab A that Gooding sold this summer.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/az20/arizona/lots/r0047-1937-mercedes-benz-540-k-coupe/836179

 

 

 

One of those links suggested the body work was done "in period." Is 14 years what concours consider in period? I thought it was 10.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 540K said:

One of those links suggested the body work was done "in period." Is 14 years what concours consider in period? I thought it was 10.

I think it would be a welcome inclusion anywhere.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, 540K said:

One of those links suggested the body work was done "in period." Is 14 years what concours consider in period? I thought it was 10.

 

For most collectors any modification after the war started, or done by anyone other than the original owner and coach builder can or might be an issue.  Styling updates were common on very expensive cars, so changes are not uncommon. Weather the work is done well and tasteful is another issue. I’m not familiar with this car, or the coach builder. It looks nice........the market will decide if the changes are a plus or minus. It’s a rare car.........and has good eyeball, so it might do well.

Edited December 14, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

For most collectors any modification after the war started, or done by anyone other than the original owner and coach builder can or might be an issue.  Styling updates were common on very expensive cars, so changes are not uncommon. Weather the work is done well and tasteful is another issue. I’m not familiar with this car, or the coach builder. It looks nice........the market will decide if the changes are a plus or minus. It’s a rare car.........and has good eyeball, so it might do well.

 

Eddy,  there is no doubt the changes are a minus as a raunchy setback radiator Cab A would be more like 1.5-1.8 on the estimate.   Hebmuller is a real coachbuilder.    This would be very similar to Derham modifying a big American Classic from the 30s around 1950.   The problem here is they started with a super desirable car.   If it was a Cab B or Cab C,  the whole thing might be a push,  or if it is more attractive the Hubmuller updates would be a plus.

Edited December 14, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 12/12/2019 at 10:32 PM, alsancle said:

Here is a picture from coachbuild.com that I snagged showing the conversion soon after Hebmuller did it.

 

 

Interesting story !

Edited December 15, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[540K]

The factory Spezial-Coupe (not the Caracciola car) is one of the best looking coupes ever made. With the right paint, blackwalls, no sunroof, redone leather and carpet this could be a very nice car, but it still wouldn't be as nice as the factory Spezial-Coupe. Someone's going to be into this car for at least $2M if they restore it, and I'm not sure there would be any meat left on the bone. But I've been wrong before. 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, 540K said:

Someone's going to be into this car for at least $2M if they restore it, and I'm not sure there would be any meat left on the bone. But I've been wrong before. 

Craig, rule number one of collecting cars is if you fully restore a car you are gonna lose money. You may be the only exception I can think of.

[West Peterson]

It's a hobby. Do it because you like it. Who golfs thinking their going to make money?

I personally (if I had the money), would restore it back to its original Cab A configuration. Although it would make more sense to just buy a Cab A that needs nothing. If it looked somewhere near as good as a real Spezial Coupe, I'd leave it be, but I think the Hebmuller job looks pretty bad aesthetically.

 

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 If it looked somewhere near as good as a real Spezial Coupe, I'd leave it be, but I think the Hebmuller job looks pretty bad aesthetically.

 

 

A real Special Coupe is 500k to 1M more than a Cab A.    As for aesthetics,  you think it is bad even in the black 1950 configuration with no sunroof?

[West Peterson]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

A real Special Coupe is 500k to 1M more than a Cab A.    As for aesthetics,  you think it is bad even in the black 1950 configuration with no sunroof?

 

I would have thought a Spezial Coupe would be worth 10 times a Cab A.

The Hebmuller coupe looks a LOT better in the dark color. I still don't much care for the bank-vault type windshield, and the cheap looking back light (looks like a window taken out of a camper trailer), with the even cheaper-looking spare tire cover. So, basically everything with Hebmuller's signature on it, needs to go away.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, West Peterson said:

 

I would have thought a Spezial Coupe would be worth 10 times a Cab A.

 

 

This is the only public sale (2011 Monterrey) I can think of at 3,000,000.  Probably about 1 million more than the comparable Cab A would have brought in 2011.   The Coupe is basically a hard top version of the Cab A.  

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/MO11/Monterey/lots/r244-1936-mercedes-benz-540-k-spezial-coupe-by-sindelfingen/192336

 

[West Peterson]

Thanks, Al

Not a huge difference from what Hebmuller did, but the shop in Sindelfingen got the fine points correct. The backlight window and spare tire cover makes a huge difference. Of course, the black tires add a LOT too.

[alsancle]

This illustrates the differences between the Sindelfingen "special' coupe and the Hebmuller update.   We will all unanimously agree that Sindelfingen did it better,  but certainly the original 1950 version of the update is superior to the later restoration.

 

As for me saying a Coupe was a Cab A with a hardtop,  that is not exactly true.   The coupe has slightly more flowing fenders (the Hebmuller car was skirted also) and has the Special Roadster hood vents (3 at an angle).

[540K]

Excellent job on the comparative photos!

[John_Mereness]

On 12/17/2019 at 8:49 AM, alsancle said:

This illustrates the differences between the Sindelfingen "special' coupe and the Hebmuller update.   We will all unanimously agree that Sindelfingen did it better,  but certainly the original 1950 version of the update is superior to the later restoration.

 

As for me saying a Coupe was a Cab A with a hardtop,  that is not exactly true.   The coupe has slightly more flowing fenders (the Hebmuller car was skirted also) and has the Special Roadster hood vents (3 at an angle).

It is not the top that catches my eye as "one of these things is not like the other" - it is the boxy nature of the front fender skirts. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

It is not the top that catches my eye as "one of these things is not like the other" - it is the boxy nature of the front fender skirts. 

 

So I agree.  If you go back to the 1951 Hebmuller update,  do you remove the skirts?   It makes the story sort of 1/2 and 1/2.

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

So I agree.  If you go back to the 1951 Hebmuller update,  do you remove the skirts?   It makes the story sort of 1/2 and 1/2.

I do not even mind the more square skirt, but what I do mind is the the opening for the wheel is not even a nice arc/circle  (perhaps in dark paint it would be less noticeable, but ....). 

[John_Mereness]

Also, Grey is rarely really a good color - not only have I found grey cars hard to sell (at least more so than other colors - green and white tend to be the worst), though there use to be a saying that "grey cars do not win Concours events" (Pebble Beach has had two recent exceptions to the rule, though pretty extraordinary cars too). 

Edited December 21, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

A nicely restored 320 Cab A with slightly questionable color choices.  One thing the seller needs to realize is that you need to provide as much of the history of the car as possible upfront in the advertisement and you can lose the 90% fluff.

 

http://www.motorcarcompany.com/1938-mercedes-benz-320a-cabriolet---w142-for-sale-san-diego--california.html

 

 

1938 Mercedes-Benz 320A Cabriolet – W142

Body Style: 2dr Cabriolet
Chassis number: 407 954
Engine number: 191 271
Engine: 3,405cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder
Transmission: 4-Speed Manual ZF AKS-20 all synchronized Transmission with Overdrive
Exterior color: Burgundy / Antrazit Gray
Interior color: Burgundy Leather


Mercedes-Benz 320 History:
Some of the most desirable cars in the world in the late 1930s were the Mercedes-Benz 500 and 540K sports models. Combining lusciously swoopy lines with a supercharged engine, the Mercedes-Benz provided the ultimate in personal transportation. The Type 320 offered a nicely sized, very comfortable car to Mercedes-Benz customers that exhibited the same general appearance as the firm's higher-end models at a significantly lower cost. A 6-cylinder 3.4-liter engine powered the 1938 models.

The chassis featured independent front and rear suspension with coil springs all around, giving the car impressive road manners while passengers enjoyed an especially comfortable ride. Four-wheel hydraulic drum brakes provided sure stopping power. As with the 290 it replaced, the 320 chassis were offered with in a number of styles – including a state-of-the-art streamlined sedan. Many 320s were supplied with formal limousine and sedan bodies with a total of eight body choices, but it was the cabriolet styles that best captured the essence of the contemporary 500K/540K sports models of the time. 

There were three 320 Cabriolet models, designated by code letters. The Cabriolet A was a racy and relatively expensive sports model – it was very much a junior 500K/540K in appearance with two front seats, a third seat set at 90 degrees across the rear and the spare wheel on the boot. The Cabriolet B was a 2-door, 4-window style with front and rear seating, while the Cabriolet D was a 4-door, 4-window style. 

A low and distinctive windscreen arose from the cowl of the 320 Cabriolets and could be tilted for ventilation. These convertible models' tops were heavily padded in the best German cabriolet tradition to provide exceptional all-weather protection. Stylish and imposing, the 320 Cabriolet had few peers as examples of open-top motoring in the grand manner, affording their fortunate owners the style of a 500K, but without the latter's considerable purchase and running costs.

Of the Cabriolet-bodied 320s, the two-door Cabriolet B is best known, but two-door Cabriolet A body with just two front seats, a third seat set at 90 degrees across the rear, and twin spare wheels on the boot were among the sportiest cars of the 1930s. As is commonly known, the Mannheim-based Mercedes-Benz factory was bombed during WW2 and completely destroyed. These cars where reportedly confiscated during WWII, presumably for military purposes.

In 2014 the car was purchased by its current owner.   Then went through an Exquisite no expense spared ground up nut + bolt restoration completed in mid 2017.  The work was overseen by- Germany-based SL-Classics Automobile. SL-Classics Automobile are very experienced, marque and concours specialist restorers. Photos of the restoration are available. Mechanical parts of the car were attended to as well, ensuring the 320 would drive as well as it looked. Superbly finished in a fitting burgundy – gray color, neatly contrasting against a well-trimmed red leather interior and roof done to the highest standards. The chrome and bright work was finished with equal precision and attention to detail. The Mercedes-Benz' electrical system was completely renewed with new cabling and connectors.  

The lavish interior of the 320A Cabriolet is just as exclusive an environment as a contemporary top-of-the-line Mercedes-Benz. Restored VDO instruments record vital running information, and the highly-polished wood covering the dashboard and door capping's has been expertly renewed.

It's now Perfection at its finest.  Ready for competitive concours judging. Timeless elegance and style. Comes with Owner’s Manual, Workshop Manual, Parts’ Manual.  Paint Perfect.  Body Perfect.  Interior Perfect. Leather Perfect. Carpet Perfect. Top Perfect. Engine Perfect. Undercarriage Perfect. Suspension Perfect. Glass Perfect. Tires Perfect. All instruments Perfect. Wood Trim Perfect. Chrome Perfect.  There is way too much about this car to list in this ad.  Please call to discuss this car in more detail.  This Mercedes-Benz 320A is for someone who wants an absolute perfect 320A.  If not just buy a different one listed for sale. If yes then look no further.

 

 

 

[alsancle]

22 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Also, Grey is rarely really a good color

 

There are some very few spectacular cars in gray, it is a hard color to get right.    This Rolls really stood out and brought a ton of money.

 

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

There are some very few spectacular cars in gray, it is a hard color to get right.    This Rolls really stood out and brought a ton of money.

 

I saw photos and liked this grey.  I am seeing a blue-grey on some new Honda cars and it has potential.  And, I am seeing a grey in new Chryslers and it has potential too.  It use to be people liked a 70's Ford light grey - but it looks dated now (Ed and I were recently commenting about a 1930 Pierce Arrow Model A Limousine in this grey). 

Edited December 22, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

This RR came out well too in greyish browns

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

A nicely restored 320 Cab A with slightly questionable color choices.  One thing the seller needs to realize is that you need to provide as much of the history of the car as possible upfront in the advertisement and you can lose the 90% fluff.

Tends to be the rule of thumb with certain things - market tends to be those who have previously had them or are pretty serious collectors.  Once someone has Judged Duesenbergs at an ACD meet, I am told they have a whole different understanding of this  - conversation tends to be all the screwed up stuff on what 99.9% of people would think a 100 point car (sort of like how I can pick apart even the best done Auburn's, 1931 Cadillac's, and ....).

 

As to colors. I think it looks nice, though I am sure the bulk of people would say it needs a black or tan top and blackwall tires (whatever its factory photos dictate). 

Edited December 22, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

[alsancle]

Sold at 900k hammer. Final price around 1,000,000.

Edited January 18, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

1930s:

 

1980s:

Edited January 18, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[alsancle]

What is demoralizing to me is to see the 540k which is an all time great car bring less than the Porsche 914-6 with racing history that was at Gooding.

 

 

[edinmass]

Well, the VW.........I mean Porsche and the Car of the Star were both built in the same place. I don’t understand how a VW would bring that kind of money.............what do I know......I’ve been at this over forty years and still can’t figure out pricing, 

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well, the VW.........I mean Porsche and the Car of the Star were both built in the same place. I don’t understand how a VW would bring that kind of money.............what do I know......I’ve been at this over forty years and still can’t figure out pricing, 

 

They were built by VW,  I think Porsche just provided the engine.   Are you actually up at 3:00 AM or is that a robot?

Edited January 18, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I was up.........fixing a car.

[John_Mereness]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

I was up.........fixing a car.

 

7 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

They were built by VW,  I think Porsche just provided the engine.   Are you actually up at 3:00 AM or is that a robot?

I was asked by Ed a couple weeks ago - my reply was late night getting in. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Finally got to reading my January February issue of the MBCA Star magazine, really nice spread on Craig's project.  Beautiful car is an understatement.

[John_Mereness]

 

 

 

 

[8E45E]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:55 AM, John_Mereness said:

Also, Grey is rarely really a good color - not only have I found grey cars hard to sell (at least more so than other colors - green and white tend to be the worst), though there use to be a saying that "grey cars do not win Concours events" (Pebble Beach has had two recent exceptions to the rule, though pretty extraordinary cars too). 

Grey does not look out of place on a huge luxury car in my eyes.  There are some shades of green I cannot stand on any car; luxury, or brand new econobox.

 

Craig

[540K]

I'm sure many of you saw the dismal results of the Bonham's sale of the green Mayfair 500 K roadster at Amelia. What a haircut! The previous sales, including just last year, were $825,000 and $830,000. This year - $362,500!!  Probably a 60% loss after fees to the current owner. Not a great body style, and needs fresh restoration and a new color, but holy crap - it's still a one-of-one 500 K.

[John_Mereness]

I am sure posted before, though love these type photos of cars on the street.

 

[John_Mereness]

20 hours ago, 540K said:

I'm sure many of you saw the dismal results of the Bonham's sale of the green Mayfair 500 K roadster at Amelia. What a haircut! The previous sales, including just last year, were $825,000 and $830,000. This year - $362,500!!  Probably a 60% loss after fees to the current owner. Not a great body style, and needs fresh restoration and a new color, but holy crap - it's still a one-of-one 500 K.

Yikes, and nice car too.  Notably, for the low's there were also strong high's on certain other cars. 

 

Rule # ... You can paint it green and speculate, but ... may not come out well for you.

 

The 53 Jaguar MK VII Sedan was free - there are surprisingly not many nice ones as the quality of the steel was so bad matched to ...

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Any 500/540K that needs a total restoration today, by an experienced shop.......750-900 grand. Add in two years time, and there are lots of other cars that can be quickly changed up with a new look and do the circuit ASAP. Just a small picture of things to come........Most owners of the big stuff are older and don’t want to wait for a car unless it’s Pebble BOS material. Just look at the sales data for cars that can be automatic contenders at PB. Market for the top .005 percent is fantastic.........great world class stuff is good, almost any car needing a total with an exotic chassis means a low sales price today.

[540K]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I am sure posted before, though love these type photos of cars on the street.

 

I hope no one pulled up behind him.