Custom bodied Packards

[Guest Packard12Man]

Attached is a photo that I found recently on the net. '33 Dietrich Conv Coupe in New Zealand.

Only the 3rd 9th, 10th or 11th series that I have seen with a rear mount. The car has now been restored and has side mounts. E-mailed but couldn't find any additional information on the cars history. Looked better without the side mounts in my opinion, but this is a guy that likes Darrin's with the top up!

[alsancle]

Attached is a photo that I found recently on the net. '33 Dietrich Conv Coupe in New Zealand.

[ATTACH]78864[/ATTACH]

Only the 3rd 9th, 10th or 11th series that I have seen with a rear mount. The car has now been restored and has side mounts. E-mailed but couldn't find any additional information on the cars history. Looked better without the side mounts in my opinion, but this is a guy that likes Darrin's with the top up!

[ATTACH]78863[/ATTACH]

Why would anyone move a factory rear mount car to sidemounts? Am I missing something - don't the rear mounts always make the car look longer and hence better?

[Mahoning63]

Yep!!! Maybe it was a prestige thing back then.

[K8096]

So the black 1933 Dietrich was rerestored and is now the white one with sidemounts. Enlarge the thumbnail picture of the black car. Look at the rake and height of the steering wheel in relation to the windshield and cowl. Compare to the photo of the white car. It's different. I realize the photos were from different angles, but it looks like the steering wheel on the black car is too close to the windshield and is not at the right angle when compared to the white car. It could be that the black car has a steering column out of a sedan, and maybe this was corrected when it was rerestored. I believe sedans and coupes of this era had steering columns that were of a different rake (and possibly different length) than the phaetons and roadsters.

[Dave Mitchell]

Yes, the black car is now white with sidemounts. The photo in white may not be the best angle. I know the owner and some of the guys who worked on the car (also note the Twin Six phaeton next to it). I was surprised when they switched it to sidemounts, but the owner likes it that way. I believe he thought it covered the transition of the hood to cowl better since the 33s don't have the deSaknovsky hood like the 34s. The car came out of Australia and before that from a well known broker in the US. There are some very nice cars in NZ and even nicer people who own them.

It's all a matter of taste, but in the concours in my yard where I am head judge, there is a 10 point deduction for having the top up on your Auburn speedster (or almost any boat tail), Darrin or Special Roadster. I think a lot of open cars look better with the top down as it brings out the essense of the original design. I have had Packards that I never put the top up on and one that I drive a fair amount that has only had the top up long enough for it to dry when I was caught out in the rain. I think it is funny that some collectors will not even look at a sedan, but will never put the top down on their open cars. I told one owner of a disappearing top Murphy roadster J to put the top down on his car at Pebble and he thought I was nuts - it would wrinkle his top! I told him the advantage he had on the other cars was that his had the disappearing top for which he paid a lot extra to get - now no one could see it because he wouldn't put the top down. I asked him if he would rather have a class win at Pebble or a wrinkle free top. Hmmm, tough choice... He still had to think about it, but finally put it down, and won the class.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Dave, your amusing Pebble Beach story speaks volumes about the mentality of many collectors today.

[twin6]

An 1108 LeBaron.

[alsancle]

Yes, the black car is now white with sidemounts. The photo in white may not be the best angle. I know the owner and some of the guys who worked on the car (also note the Twin Six phaeton next to it). I was surprised when they switched it to sidemounts, but the owner likes it that way. I believe he thought it covered the transition of the hood to cowl better since the 33s don't have the deSaknovsky hood like the 34s. The car came out of Australia and before that from a well known broker in the US. There are some very nice cars in NZ and even nicer people who own them.

It's all a matter of taste, but in the concours in my yard where I am head judge, there is a 10 point deduction for having the top up on your Auburn speedster (or almost any boat tail), Darrin or Special Roadster. I think a lot of open cars look better with the top down as it brings out the essense of the original design. I have had Packards that I never put the top up on and one that I drive a fair amount that has only had the top up long enough for it to dry when I was caught out in the rain. I think it is funny that some collectors will not even look at a sedan, but will never put the top down on their open cars. I told one owner of a disappearing top Murphy roadster J to put the top down on his car at Pebble and he thought I was nuts - it would wrinkle his top! I told him the advantage he had on the other cars was that his had the disappearing top for which he paid a lot extra to get - now no one could see it because he wouldn't put the top down. I asked him if he would rather have a class win at Pebble or a wrinkle free top. Hmmm, tough choice... He still had to think about it, but finally put it down, and won the class.

I would deduct points for moving the spare - I know on a Mercedes you would deduct points for moving them from the side to the back. As for the top up/top down argument. Each car is different. Some look better up, some down. The top on my Mercedes has never been down except for testing it once, and will never go down while I own it. On an Auburn Speedster or Packard Darrin then the top should be down. A 810/812 Cord Conv coupe looks good either way. There are many examples that can go in each bucket.

[K8096]

I hate to say this...but.... that 1933 Dietrich conv coupe that now has sidemounts would get more money at auction with the sidemounts than without. Without sidemounts, a majority of people would say "too bad it doesn't have sidemounts." I believe there were several Duesenberg J Murphy conv. coupes with rear spares, but only one still wears them. The rest have been switched over. Again, at auction, the one with the rear spare would bring less money. So some of it may be a lesson in economics.

[Guest bkazmer]

I understand the top crease thing, but isn't the whole point of a convertible that the top goes down? Doesn't top creasing fall under "normal use" like some road dirt on the undercarriage - i.e. no deduction?

[Mahoning63]

Agree it should go down for wind-in-your-hair driving enjoyment. And cheap Detroit tops from the 60s aren't very attactive to look at. I do think a nicely tailored canvas top can lend an added level of richnesss and color to a car. And it can improve shape depending on the car's design, as was mentioned. For example, a 34 LeBaron Sport Phaeton does not look good with the top up but a '36 Dietrich Phaeton does becasue the cut lines of the top visually unify the body and make a very dynamic overall vehicle shape.

On the sidemounts, Duesenberg's hood vents are radiused to match the sidemounts, one more reason to add them. And Duesies look good with or without sidemount covers because the car suggests both luxury and a racing heritage. Packard sidemounts look a bit naked without covers but very rich with them.

Just an opinion..

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

A crease in a top would merit a deduction as would excess dirt on the undercarriage in AACA competition.

[alsancle]

I hate to say this...but.... that 1933 Dietrich conv coupe that now has sidemounts would get more money at auction with the sidemounts than without. Without sidemounts, a majority of people would say "too bad it doesn't have sidemounts." I believe there were several Duesenberg J Murphy conv. coupes with rear spares, but only one still wears them. The rest have been switched over. Again, at auction, the one with the rear spare would bring less money. So some of it may be a lesson in economics.

Jason, you are usually dead on with your observations but I have to disagrees on this one. The single existing Murphy with rear spares brought almost a 500k over the equivalent car without the spares. I believe it brought 1.8 while a nice disappearing top Murphy brings closer to 1 - 1.3 these days. As a Packard has never came to auction with that configuration we don't know the results but I can tell you the same is true with Mercedes.

Dave, forgive me for posting the Duesenburg picture.

[K8096]

That's interesting. I think 1.8 million is more in the perfectly restored DC phaeton (perhaps even supercharged) range. I respectfully submit perhaps this buyer overpaid, but since I will never have that kind of money perhaps it is not my place to say. I do like the single pilot ray. Much better looking than duals.

[alsancle]

That's interesting. I think 1.8 million is more in the perfectly restored DC phaeton (perhaps even supercharged) range. I respectfully submit perhaps this buyer overpaid, but since I will never have that kind of money perhaps it is not my place to say. I do like the single pilot ray. Much better looking than duals.

Perhaps.

Btw, this was the second body on this chassis and was mounted in 1934 which dovetails with the conversation over in the rebodied thread.

It would be very interesting if one of those original rear spare Dietrichs came to market with the spares intact.

[Guest bkazmer]

my error - of course judging standards vary by club. AACA rules differ from PAC.

[Dave Mitchell]

Interesting that you can't have a crease in your top, and you don't have to show that it will go down. Sounds like an outdated rule to me. Are they cars or museum pieces?

Good to see you here Mr. Kazmer.

[Dave Mitchell]

A.J. - no problem on the Duesenberg photo. It reminds me of Bill Buddig who owned it when it was restored about 20 years ago. He was one of the nicest guys you could meet. I was standing by myself at the first Grand Classic watching the cars drive onto the Indy track for parade laps. Bill (who I had never met) saw me standing there and stopped to ask if I wanted to ride along in his 34 Packard 12 phaeton. Of course I did, and it is a very nice memory.

[Dave Mitchell]

I like the 1108 Le Baron town car - does it still exist?

[twin6]

I like the 1108 Le Baron town car - does it still exist?

So far as I know it does, but the Marchal headlamps may have been changed out.

[trimacar]

I remember working on the upholstery on a big Classic convertible, and the owner wanted a clear plastic cover over the new top.

I semi-argued with him, lost the argument of course, and sewed a clear cover to fit over the top, complete with binding and snap attachments.

I always thought it was silly making such a cover, but the people who're serious about showing wouldn't want a speck of dirt, or ... forbid, rain, to hit their top...

[Dave Mitchell]

I remember working on the upholstery on a big Classic convertible, and the owner wanted a clear plastic cover over the new top.

I semi-argued with him, lost the argument of course, and sewed a clear cover to fit over the top, complete with binding and snap attachments.

I always thought it was silly making such a cover, but the people who're serious about showing wouldn't want a speck of dirt, or ... forbid, rain, to hit their top...

It is well known that rain will melt these cars. Ok, I know it is a lot of work to clean up a show car that has been in the rain - I have done it numerous times - but really... I am sure they never got wet when new either.

[Dave Mitchell]

So far as I know it does, but the Marchal headlamps may have been changed out.

Interesting - I didn't even catch that. Did the car come from Europe?

[twin6]

2-36 coupe with Holbrook body.

[twin6]

They can't all be gorgeous. Here's a Judkins coupe.

[Dave Mitchell]

Interesting early coupes, keep the photos coming!

[Restorer32]

'39 Rollson Super 8 Chauffeur Driven Coupe with only the driver's side seat in the front. Built for a Mrs. Swayze of NYC.

[alsancle]

'39 Rollson Super 8 Chauffeur Driven Coupe with only the driver's side seat in the front. Built for a Mrs. Swayze of NYC.

Is this the one that was going to be turned into a woody until the owner discovered it had a Rollson body on it? I think I saw it at Hershey a couple of years ago.

[Restorer32]

That's it. He has copies of all the original paperwork and drawings from Rollson. We convinced him that it would be a crime against nature to chop up the car. It's not really "restored" but at least now it is whole and all the same color.

[alsancle]

That's it. He has copies of all the original paperwork and drawings from Rollson. We convinced him that it would be a crime against nature to chop up the car. It's not really "restored" but at least now it is whole and all the same color.

I would agree it looks much better now

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Chocolate Field 2008? I am pretty sure I remember this car also. I thiink the doors look like they would work on a towncar. World of difference; and saved by good advice from Jeff & co! Yeah!

[K8096]

Here's a thought I had. You know how people will show an original photo of a custom bodied car that was taken by the coachbuilder right after it was completed and say "it had blackwall tires originally," or "it had the plain radiator cap originally." I wonder....when Packard, or any manfacturer for that matter, supplied a chassis to a coachbuilder, what tires were on the chassis? I doesn't make sense to have perfect new wide whitewalls on a chassis that's going to have a body built on it does it? They'd get scuffed up. So I'm wondering....did Packard and others put "cheap" tires on the chassis they sold to coachbuilders just for the purpose of transporting and building the car and then expect better, new, tires to be put on at delivery? Same thing with the radiator cap on a Packard. The owner might choose which one upon delivery of the car. Look at page 11 of this thread post # 260. there are several Rollston cars with blackwalls tires on them. Look at the tires. I could be wrong, but they almost look like truck tires. Now the tires on the photo of the 1938 Derham conv. in the first post on this thread have a more "finished" look to them. Some customs were ordered directly from the coachbuilder, while others were ordered through a local dealer. I'm wondering if on some cars ordered through a local dealer, if the dealer didn't put the final tires, hood ornament, radio, ect on the car instead of the coachbuilder. I have nothing against blackwall tires or plain bail caps, it's just a thought.

Edited February 18, 2011 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Have always found those chauffeur-driven coupes fascinating. So much seating innovation back then. Saw a '27 Pierce-Arrow a few years ago of similar layout. Would have made (and would still make?) much sense in a city like NY where parking space is tight and congestion heavy. Only problem is it can only carry one passenger comfortably. Perhaps the Swayze's also had a traditional Town Car for when the hubbie came along.

[Guest Van]

To All:

Can someone post pictures of current 1939 Packard Rollson, Model 1701, Towncars.

Thank you.

Van

[Dave Mitchell]

A 37 120 wagon

[Packardbarry]

A 37 120 wagon

WOW !!!!!! Wood plus - Driving light, Horn, Spot light, Radio and a good looking chick. Looks like they took a CR and did their thing. GREAT LOOKING - be happy to have it in my fleet. Assume this is a special order - do we know who it went to and who built it?

[Dave Mitchell]

This woodie is really decked out - also goddess of speed, side mount, center bumper guard and license plate frame. Somewhere I have more info on it, I will have to look. I am not sure who built it. It is unusual that they started with a roadster instead of a sedan, but it gives the car a very different look.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Dave Mitchell (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

A 38 Erdmann & Rossi cabriolet.

[Earl B.]

When you enlarge the left picture of the woodie, the rear door sure looks small...I'd hate to have to get in and out of there on a regular basis....B

[Packardbarry]

This woodie is really decked out - also goddess of speed, side mount, center bumper guard and license plate frame. Somewhere I have more info on it, I will have to look. I am not sure who built it. It is unusual that they started with a roadster insteaad of a sedan, but it gives the car a very different look.

Did a little digging. Another shot below. Was designed by Brooks Stevens Woodie Gallery: American Woodie Autos 1930 to 1939 - Old Woodies and built by Monart Motors Monart Motors, Monart Sales, Mercury Monart Carry-All, Brooks Stevens - Coachbult.com

Must have been a custom order - wonder who for.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Packardbarry (see edit history)