Custom bodied Packards

[roadster]

Here are pictures of Dick Saunders' "Saunders Special", a 1936 Packard boattail.

Edited February 1, 2011 by roadster
Photo edit, added more (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Here are pictures of Dick Saunders' "Saunders Special", a 1936 Packard boattail.

Is that you Pete?

Tell them about the twin blowers on the 12, also I believe the conv coupe is souped up a bit?

[alsancle]

Jan Melin is my hero! Is he going to write a 3rd installment I hope? Great story Dave. Most of the stories I know of guys acquiring special cars are similar and all require much effort. At least the ones where they guy doesn't have to write a million dollar check. My Stutz was the result of my Dad's 35 years of effort to just see it.

The story of how I got the Norrmalm car is rather long, but the short version is that in 1989 I was in Sweden for a couple months in the summer and I went to a swap meet where I met some Packard guys. They convinced me that I could bring Packard parts when I came to Sweden and I joined the Nordic Packard Owners Club. In the roster I saw the car I remembered from the Phau book, but it took me 3 years to actually find the owner and yet another year before he offered to sell me the car, rather than have me restore it for him as he had originally asked. It was in pieces in the basement garage of a hotel right in the city of Stockholm. The third owners were 18 year old engineering students who had taken the car apart in 1961. I spent a couple of months assembling the car so I could put it in a container and ship it home. The best thing about that was the time that I spent there was terrific and I made several new friends, including the man who I bought the car from and two great historians, Jan Stroman and Jan Melin, who have remained friends to the present day. I was also lucky to meet a man who worked on the car when it was built and learn a lot about the car, the owner, and the coachbuilder. I met the son of the man who designed it and I have driven the exact road from Stockholm to Sodertalje where the car was taken for the first drive when the body was completed. That is the very, very short version of the story.

[vintageride]

Hello folks,

I have been gone the past few days. It looks like the thread has been pretty busy.

I knew the 1936 Packard Speedster many years ago when I lived back east. Here is one of the views I have of the body being placed on the Packard chassis. Some of you have asked; the body was steel (1929 Auburn model 8-120). Based on the other photo, the firewall of the body was removed.

AJ is correct, the car was powered by a bored out twelve with twin superchargers. 904080

Dick Saunders owned the car, until his death in 1976. I have compiled loads of documents about this car from creation to it's evolution through the years. This began when I saw the car in late August 2007 just by chance, only a few weeks after the Christie's auction. Few would have recognized it. Many of the documents have been graciously provided by friends.

This is a partial list of references for your research for Mr. Saunders and the car:

Blend, Edward J., 1988. Antique Automobile, "The Packard Gentlemen’s Tailback Speedster by Fernandez and Darrin", July-August 1988.

Buckler, 1967. Bennington Banner, Photo, Page 1, September 18, 1967.

Christie’s, 2007. Lot description as posted on Christie's - Fine Art Auctions | Contemporary Modern Paintings | Jewelry Auction House | Antique Furniture. Lot number 0050, Sale number 1864.

Collectible Automobile, Speedster, September 1989

Fesler, Otis. Automobilists of the Upper Hudson Valley Magazine, "Ask The Man Who’s Owned Some". Date Needed

Hamilton Woolen Mill, 1922. "The Hamiltonian" Newsletter Vol. 111, No. 8, August 1922.

Jaderquist, J. A., 1951. Motor Trend, "Classic Comments", July 1951.

Saunders, Richard E., 1975. Classic Car Club of America, The Classic Car

Magazine, "Letter to the Editor", March 1975.

The Fesler article is great. Just a few typos though, spelling (Proux) and one of the years listed (1930 vs 1929). The Fesler article was from the sixties or seventies. Please let me know the date of the Fesler article from the AUHV.

Feel free to contact me with any questions. I would be interested in any letters, photos, insight you may have about Mr. Saunders or the 1936 Packard Speedster.

Vintageride

Edited February 4, 2011 by vintageride
fixed a few typos (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Now that is a cool picture!

[twin6]

Great thread! I am a bit late, but for Owen_Dyneto and Landman, I can offer the following on the twin sixes you posted, as I am roster keeper for the twins. Left to right are: 3rd series twin landaulet (1919) ex Harrah, with body by Graff (Chicago); 3rd series twin Cape Victoria (1922) with body by Brunn; and on the bottom, a 2nd series twin limousine (1917) with body by Kimball. The Kimball bodied car was sold at the Rod Blood auction in 1966 with a 2nd series drive train (engine no. 129841). The auction writeup stated: "Mr. Blood secured this chassis from one source, the body from another...."

[Joe Block]

My favorites are Ralston town cars and convertible sedans. Big is better. Joe

[Dave Mitchell]

Jan Melin is my hero! Is he going to write a 3rd installment I hope? quote

A. J. - I agree. If you ever have the chance to meet him in person you will agree he is one of the nicest people on the planet, besides being the top automotive historian. His knowledge is incredible and the scope of it truly amazing. His dedication to finding the absolute facts and never, ever saying something is true that he hasn't with his own eyes seen proof of (and then verified it and crossreferenced it) all the while never making a dime from the information he had, is just something I have never encountered before. I have met a lot of historians (both real and self proclaimed) automotive and otherwise, but he is the best, and Jan Stroman is right there with him, although not as famous. Jan Melin assembled everything for 2 more books, but was unable to find a publisher for them due to the economy. Daimler Benz historical now has the material and I really, really hope that they are smart enough to publish both of them. I have seen the period photos that he selected and anyone who likes old cars would love the books, not just MB guys.

[alsancle]

When I get the motivation up I will start a separate prewar MB thread and post some stuff. Hopefully DB will do something with the material, but I wouldn't hold out hope.

Jan Melin is my hero! Is he going to write a 3rd installment I hope? quote

A. J. - I agree. If you ever have the chance to meet him in person you will agree he is one of the nicest people on the planet, besides being the top automotive historian. His knowledge is incredible and the scope of it truly amazing. His dedication to finding the absolute facts and never, ever saying something is true that he hasn't with his own eyes seen proof of (and then verified it and crossreferenced it) all the while never making a dime from the information he had, is just something I have never encountered before. I have met a lot of historians (both real and self proclaimed) automotive and otherwise, but he is the best, and Jan Stroman is right there with him, although not as famous. Jan Melin assembled everything for 2 more books, but was unable to find a publisher for them due to the economy. Daimler Benz historical now has the material and I really, really hope that they are smart enough to publish both of them. I have seen the period photos that he selected and anyone who likes old cars would love the books, not just MB guys.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So the boattail speedster by B&S is pictured in the September 95 issue of the Classic Car. Just inside back cover, a full page view of the back of the car overlooking it. Simple caption "Speedster by B&S on Packard 12 chassis". The side view pictured in a smaller set of B&S photos is not a Packard but a Duesenberg, I missed that sorry. Still an interesting car, I am guessing no longer with us as I think these are old photos.

Anyone taking the time to check that issue out will find it interesting, great coverage of the Snyder car mentioned above (detailed story of acquisition and restoration) as well as a rare one off MB Cab for A.J.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Steve

Can you post a photo of the Bohman speedster. I can't remember seeing it.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Great thread! I am a bit late, but for Owen_Dyneto and Landman, I can offer the following on the twin sixes you posted, as I am roster keeper for the twins. Left to right are: 3rd series twin landaulet (1919) ex Harrah, with body by Graff (Chicago); 3rd series twin Cape Victoria (1922) with body by Brunn; and on the bottom, a 2nd series twin limousine (1917) with body by Kimball. The Kimball bodied car was sold at the Rod Blood auction in 1966 with a 2nd series drive train (engine no. 129841). The auction writeup stated: "Mr. Blood secured this chassis from one source, the body from another...."

twin6, your expertise in tracking these cars is amazing. Why don't you expand it to include all Packard V12s and then there won't be all this confusion over an ABS bodiy being put on a Packard?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Steve

Can you post a photo of the Bohman speedster. I can't remember seeing it.

Uh, completely lacking the technical tools and skills to do that, he punted...

Best I can do is try to take a picture with my phone, West. Surely an email to the AACA library will yiedl better results?

I am sure this is a totally different vehicle than the Saunder's car discussed above.

[West Peterson]

Uh, completely lacking the technical tools and skills to do that, he punted...

I am sure this is a totally different vehicle than the Saunder's car discussed above.

Yes. Totally different. And miscaptioned too, as it is not a Bohman and Schwartz job. That is the experimental car from the "Custom by Packard" shop. It started out as a 1930 734 speedster, then mounted onto the Twelve chassis. The car is pictured earlier in this thread, #172 (I've loaded the picture and placed it to the right).

Edited February 3, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Interesting. Goes to show everything in print, even from a reputable source, is not always right on these old machines.

What do you make of the dual circular shaped objects on the rear deck marked "Packard 12" - at first I thought, cool, dual gas fillers but I am thinking steps to access trunk? Car looks great in profile, with us or lost to the ages?

[alsancle]

Interesting. Goes to show everything in print, even from a reputable source, is not always right on these old machines.

What do you make of the dual circular shaped objects on the rear deck marked "Packard 12" - at first I thought, cool, dual gas fillers but I am thinking steps to access trunk? Car looks great in profile, with us or lost to the ages?

I vote gas fillers.

[twin6]

Does anyone have any information on this custom?

[Guest Silverghost]

The above "Custom" Town Car auto looks more like a Springfield Rolls~Royce from the front radiator, drum headlamps, & bumper !

Schulte was the first official franchised Rolls~Royce Dealer/ importer in the USA long before Rolls~Royce of America Inc. was formed in Springfield Mass.

Does anyone think this is really a Packard ?

I am guessing there is some error in this above advert ?

Edited February 4, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Packardbarry]

Story i ve got so far is this speedster is called the THOMPSON SPECIAL after the THOMPSON PRODUCTS COMPANY Ive been trying to come up with the connection of THOMPSON PRODUCTS and this car and so far nothing. Anyone know? What interesting is the car has a early 1929 Calif - 6W-349. Lic Pl. and the THOMPSON Co. was out of OHIO. Car looks new clean so guessing it just got off the train. Has a body builders name plate on the lower LH cowl so it wasent a back yard thing. When u blow up the photo u can't make it out 100% but it sure looks like DIETRICH to me. Packard club has this photo on their site and notes it as "740 Major Glasscock". Someone stated is was Jimmy Doolittle sitting in it. The uniform is right for a Major in the Air Corp and Jimmy was a Major at that time and it does look like him but he was stationed in NY at that time so the chances its him are slim. So who is Major Glasscock and was there really a Major Glasscock?

Edited February 3, 2011 by Packardbarry (see edit history)

[twin6]

Packardbarry - take a look at post 110 by Dave Mitchell and the followup. I've always heard the car referred to as the Maj. Glasscock speedster, but have nothing concrete on his ownership or Thompson's.

[Guest Silverghost]

As I mentioned before Tompson Products Company sponsored the famous Thompson Trophy National Air Races .

Many of the aircraft and pilots were in fact sponsored by the Army Air Corps.

Jimmy Doolittle actually won one the 1932 Thompson Trophy Races !

I like all these sporty custom boat-tailed speedsters !

I like the unusual radical way-out speester designs !

If ever given the opportunity~

I would buy any of these Packard Boat-Tailed speedsters any day of the week !

Edited February 3, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

What do you make of the dual circular shaped objects on the rear deck marked "Packard 12" - at first I thought, cool, dual gas fillers but I am thinking steps to access trunk? Car looks great in profile, with us or lost to the ages?

This particular speedster is not known to exist.

[West Peterson]

Story i ve got so far is this speedster is called the THOMPSON SPECIAL after the THOMPSON PRODUCTS COMPANY Ive been trying to come up with the connection of THOMPSON PRODUCTS and this car and so far nothing. Anyone know? What interesting is the car has a early 1929 Calif - 6W-349. Lic Pl. and the THOMPSON Co. was out of OHIO. Car looks new clean so guessing it just got off the train. Has a body builders name plate on the lower LH cowl so it wasent a back yard thing. When u blow up the photo u can't make it out 100% but it sure looks like DIETRICH to me. Packard club has this photo on their site and notes it as "740 Major Glasscock". Someone stated is was Jimmy Doolittle sitting in it. The uniform is right for a Major in the Air Corp and Jimmy was a Major at that time and it does look like him but he was stationed in NY at that time so the chances its him are slim. So who is Major Glasscock and was there really a Major Glasscock?

This car still exists, or at least a replica of it still exists (I don't know which). I wonder why it's called a 1930 model, when all identifiable features on it are 1929, i.e. steering wheel, bumpers, hood holder-downerers, taillight, wheels.

[Packardbarry]

What im having a hard figuring out is with the car having an early '29 plate it must be a '28 and THOMPSON didnt get into the THOMPSON TROPHY untill mid '29 THOMPSON TROPHY STORY. Timeline for it being part of the race winnings does not work and i dont think the Air Corp would look to kind of someone in their service getting a custom DIETRICH Speedster $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as a gift.

Jimmy Doolittle did win the 1932 Thompson Trophy so again timeline does not work for it being part of the winnings.

As I mentioned before Tompson Products Company sponsored the famous Thompson Trophy National Air Races .

Many of the aircraft and pilots were in fact sponsored by the Army Air Corps.

Jimmy Doolittle actually won one of the Thompson Trophy Races !

I like all these sporty custom boat-tailed speedsters !

I like the unusual radical way-out speester designs !

If ever given the opportunity~

I would buy any of these Packard Boat-Tailed speedsters any day of the week !

Edited February 3, 2011 by Packardbarry (see edit history)

[twin6]

Two more views...

[Packardbarry]

Two more views...

INTERESTING. Looks like the same Calif street as the other 2 photos. Guessing taken at the same time. Plate is harder to make out in this straight on photo vrs the one with the Major in. Where did these come from?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great site, Dave. Thanks for your expertise on fuel filler & sending unit covers. Are they cool or what?

Re Dietrich speedster, usually used to seeing more "traditional design" from the Great Master, just proves he was good at everything...

[twin6]

INTERESTING. Looks like the same Calif street as the other 2 photos. Guessing taken at the same time. Plate is harder to make out in this straight on photo vrs the one with the Major in. Where did these come from?

The speedster was featured in an issue of the Packard magazine c. 1930, and I've been told by a trusted Packard historian that the body was custom built by a Thompson body company in California, and TRW (Cleveland) had nothing to do with the car or body, despite persistent rumors. Some vendors like John Conde may have reproduced the photos in years past. Walter Miller has some for sale right now. Here's another look at the driver. Let's hope someone can identify him!

[Restorer32]

Sure looks like Dwight Eisenhower but too old to be him?

[Guest Packard12Man]

Door Hinge puzzle - Like most Packard enthusiasts I have a passion for 9th, 10th and 11th series Dietrich Semi Customs. I have followed and studied these cars for many years. Even the owners that I have spoken with cannot answer this question definitively. I am not even sure why this sparks my interest. I have photo's of 8 existing original 11th series Dietrich conv. sedans. I have attached photo's of two. 1108 11 from the Nethercott collection and 1108 23 owned by CCCA member Kilkenny. Of the 8, these are the only 2 that have 3 door hinges and I am curious as to why. It appears in my research that divider windows were pretty much standard equitment. The other possibility that I thought of was jump seats although the Marano car has jump seats but only two door hinges. Of the few surviving 9th and 10th series conv. sedans none have 3 hinges. As these bodies were apparently built in '31 and stored in the white until used, does anyone know of another option on these two particular cars that would cause them to have been built with 3 hinges? Also, were these cars assembled at the Murray Plant or at the Packard Plant?

Thanks for all the interesting comments on the F&D Speedster, made for very interesting reading.

If there is anyone out there with photo's of 9th, 10th and 11th series Dietrich's, I would enjoying sharing same. My e-mail address is bsheeler@mountaincable.net

Brian

[W_Higgins]

Sure looks like Dwight Eisenhower but too old to be him?

Physical differences aside, it looks like stitched-on wings on his jacket -- a decoration I'm pretty sure Ike didn't have, in addition to the fact I don't think any U.S. class A uniform would have had. So far as I know, all U.S. wings on a dress uniform would have been pin-on. The general cut and style looks very British.

[Packardbarry]

The speedster was featured in an issue of the Packard magazine c. 1930, and I've been told by a trusted Packard historian that the body was custom built by a Thompson body company in California, and TRW (Cleveland) had nothing to do with the car or body, despite persistent rumors. Some vendors like John Conde may have reproduced the photos in years past. Walter Miller has some for sale right now. Here's another look at the driver. Let's hope someone can identify him!

THOMPSON BODY COMPANY Reim-Thompson Co., Robert Thompson Co., Thompson Body Co., George F. Reim, R.M. Thompson, Robert M. Thompson - Coachbuilt.comdoes make sense seeing how the car has a Calif lic plate and Thompson was in LA. As i said when u enlarge the photo u cant make out the body builders tag 100%. Its retangular, approx 1"x3" and DIETRICH's tag came to mind but ive been wrong before. Anyone know what a Thompson Body Co. name plat looks like? AND im thinking the rad shell it MILLAR ie Race Cars and they were out of So. Calif so there might be a connection there with Millar. On that latest photo showing the RH side i see it has a large exhaust pipe which to me spells out that there was some stuff going on under the hood. With those air scoops in the hood, the large tail pipe, the MILLAR rad shell, full body pan, it makes u wonder if Millar was playing with it also. Think this baby was made for SHOW AND GO. If this guy Major Glasscock was the owner thats refered to with the car was reel he must have been an interesting dude.

[Dave Mitchell]

Physical differences aside, it looks like stitched-on wings on his jacket -- a decoration I'm pretty sure Ike didn't have, in addition to the fact I don't think any U.S. class A uniform would have had. So far as I know, all U.S. wings on a dress uniform would have been pin-on. The general cut and style looks very British.

I'd have to agree that I never saw US wings that weren't pin on even in museums, and I know from my dad's uniforms that they were pin on in WWII. However, the insignia on the hat looks US to me.

[W_Higgins]

I'd have to agree that I never saw US wings that weren't pin on even in museums, and I know from my dad's uniforms that they were pin on in WWII. However, the insignia on the hat looks US to me.

Sure enough, that new straight-on shot does look like U.S. insignia on the hat. The wings still look like they're stitched-on with that dark border around them. There were lots of little changes in uniforms so maybe it's a short-lived deviation from the the norm.

Edit to add: I see now the occupant was discussed earlier with the above photo (I only watch this thread off-and-on). He is very Doolittle looking:

Edited February 5, 2011 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Anybody ever see a photo of this Packard?

[West Peterson]

Interesting observation. I've also noted that the coupes and sedans have just two hinges, while the convertible coupes have three. I haven't looked at all of them, but the ones I've found so far are like that.

The Marano car is a unique car altogether. The body is much longer. Not nearly as sleek looking as the rest of the Deitrich convertible sedans. IMO, anyway.

Door Hinge puzzle - Like most Packard enthusiasts I have a passion for 9th, 10th and 11th series Dietrich Semi Customs. I have followed and studied these cars for many years. Even the owners that I have spoken with cannot answer this question definitively. I am not even sure why this sparks my interest. I have photo's of 8 existing original 11th series Dietrich conv. sedans. I have attached photo's of two. 1108 11 from the Nethercott collection and 1108 23 owned by CCCA member Kilkenny. Of the 8, these are the only 2 that have 3 door hinges and I am curious as to why. It appears in my research that divider windows were pretty much standard equitment. The other possibility that I thought of was jump seats although the Marano car has jump seats but only two door hinges. Of the few surviving 9th and 10th series conv. sedans none have 3 hinges. As these bodies were apparently built in '31 and stored in the white until used, does anyone know of another option on these two particular cars that would cause them to have been built with 3 hinges? Also, were these cars assembled at the Murray Plant or at the Packard Plant?

Thanks for all the interesting comments on the F&D Speedster, made for very interesting reading.

If there is anyone out there with photo's of 9th, 10th and 11th series Dietrich's, I would enjoying sharing same. My e-mail address is bsheeler@mountaincable.net

[ATTACH]77744[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]77747[/ATTACH]

Brian

Edited February 6, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

Anybody ever see a photo of this Packard?

Great photos Ed. Are they taken in India? I love the one with the elephants. I am guessing that this could be a Rollston body. I know they built a few phaetons in 37 and at least 2 survive and both are Super 8s, so it would make sense that this was another in that group. The chrome grill shell is typical of export cars - that and the lights would indicate it was a special order. If it is one of the Rollstons, perhaps other customers saw this car being built or when it was done and ordered similar bodies.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Dave Mitchell (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Hi Dave, Yes it is a Rollston. The car is restored and still in India. I'll try and post a photo of it later today. I thought the chrome in the grill was a modern day upgrade in poor taste. I didn't pick up on it in the old photos. I may be able to post some more unknown Packard photos, I'll see what I have. Ed

[Dave Mitchell]

Ed, I look forward to any more photos you can post. I think that the chrome shells were more popular in the 30s than we now think, it is just that most cars have been painted when they were restored. I know of a few cars that never left the US that still have chrome shells. One is a 39 12 convertible sedan that still has original paint - when I first saw the car I didn't care for the chrome shell, but the car was in my shop for a while when we did the engine and some other work ot it and after a while it grew on me and if I were to restore that car, I would leave the shell chrome. It is rather "over the top", but it is the way that it was when new. I know at least one other 39 12 convertible sedan had a chrome shell when new and was not an export car. I think that a lot of export cars had chrome shells though, even after 34. There were 3 39 Super 8s delivered to the Royal family in Stockholm and 2 of them had chrome shells. If you think of Horch and especially Mercedes Benz, they kept the chrome shells, so in Europe, it was accepted. Perhaps it is the same in India.

[edinmass]

This next photo confirms that they were popular. You should see some of the colors they painted the cars going to India. It still continues today. They love wild colors. Can you ID these cars?