Custom bodied Packards

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Wow - really unique and attractive. One thing that this this thread has done for me is give me more of an appreciation for the European coachwork, which I just have not seen enough of in person, but hope to in time...

What is the color scheme now, Dave? I would think that black and red would work well on that beautiful design.

For what it's worth if you have it and don't mind sharing it, my guess is none of the regulars here will think it is arrogant or in any way self promotion! Don't hold out on us!

[alsancle]

So Dave, when will you be ready for Pebble Beach?

I love European bodies on American Chassis. There were many great European Chassis but relatively few with large engines. The tight cabriolet tops on the European bodies make the cars look better with the top (or boot) up then down. This is opposite of the American bodies (see the Darrin Victoria as a golden example).

[Owen_Dyneto]

Dave, your cabriolet looks identical to the one shown on page 221 of Pfau's The Coachbuilt Packard. Same car?

[West Peterson]

Only minor details separate the 1941 and 1942 non Clipper Packards, being the side grills, often called catwalks, and a small addition or chrome on the taillights.

Thanks for the detailed info, Dave. One addition and one correction.

1942 Packards had turn signals, while 1941 did not.

The only difference between the '41 and '42 taillights is in a different upper lens. They're interchangeable, but there was a minor change due to 1942 having turn signals.

[Packardbarry]

OK. Here are 3 photos taken in the 1950s. The second spare is not on and the leather top has been replaced, but you get the idea. The car was black with red leather and the radiator shell was originally chromed and is again now. The hood was lengthened about 8 inches. Norrmalm started with a chassis, with some special order items like wheels that were specially made 1 inch wider than standard. To give you an idea of the scale - the doors are 5 feet long.

What was the reason for the 1" wider rims?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Certainly Ken Chapman knows his Darrins and especially the convertible sedans, I thoroughly enjoyed his article in The Classic Car Winter 2010 and spoke with him on the phone about it - and about the photo at the bottom of page 13 with a Packard described as carrying an earlier body. In fact that car is a 1940 one-off by Derham for one of the principles of the Drexel-Lambert financial house. It is severely formal, originally even the grille was painted black. I've got some good pictures of it if anyone is interested. It's often seen on PAC tours and shows, owner lives in Cherry Hill, NJ area.

As far as the Darrin victorias go, I'd think Gene Tareshawty is probably the most knowledgeable about their details.

[Dave Mitchell]

What was the reason for the 1" wider rims?

I was lucky to meet a man who worked on the car when it was built and the son of the original owner was into technology and performance and more or less like today, he wanted a wider wheel to put more tire on the ground. This is a big, heavy car, and the wider wheels can't hurt.

[Dave Mitchell]

Dave, your cabriolet looks identical to the one shown on page 221 of Pfau's The Coachbuilt Packard. Same car?

Not sure of the page number, but it is the same car. Phau misidentified it as a 38 120. The car is so big it fills the street. That is from the day that the 3rd owners brought it home and I have other photos taken then.

[Dave Mitchell]

So Dave, when will you be ready for Pebble Beach?

I love European bodies on American Chassis. There were many great European Chassis but relatively few with large engines. The tight cabriolet tops on the European bodies make the cars look better with the top (or boot) up then down. This is opposite of the American bodies (see the Darrin Victoria as a golden example).

Just now I am busy working on customer cars, so I am not sure when I will have mine done, but I make some progress now and then, so it will be a while.

I too like European bodies on American chassis, and you are right, very few ended up on the 12 or 16 cylinder chassis. The man who ordered the 1408 was so wealthy that the increased tax on the big engine didn't faze him. I met several members of his family and was able to ask his son why they didn't buy a Mercedes or Horch - he said that first of all they had owned Packards and loved them and second, they wanted an American car because they were more exotic and the V12 was more exclusive and offered great performance while still very reliable. Here we think of the MB as the more exotic car, so that was a bit of a surprise for me. For them the Packard was a foreign car.

I like this car with the top down also, even though it does stack up pretty high, it has the drop in the beltline that lowers it some, and it has such a great interior that it is nice to show it off. The top is so well built and is so balanced (with helper springs) that I can put it up and down by myself.

I like the rear treatment a lot with the rake of the bumper and dual rear spares.

[Dave Mitchell]

Wow - really unique and attractive. One thing that this this thread has done for me is give me more of an appreciation for the European coachwork, which I just have not seen enough of in person, but hope to in time...

What is the color scheme now, Dave? I would think that black and red would work well on that beautiful design.

You are welcome to come and see me if you are ever in the midwest. I will put this back as close as possible to the way it was when new, black with red leather, chrome shell and wheels. The car is very well documented.

Having had a very formal one off custom limo for 20 years, as well as the just as exotic - but much sportier - Norrmalm car, I can tell you that a lot of Packard guys really only like the Packard or Packard semi custom cataloged cars and don't pay much attention to the one off customs. I like the one offs because I think that is one thing that sets the cars of the classic era apart.

[alsancle]

Having had a very formal one off custom limo for 20 years, as well as the just as exotic - but much sportier - Norrmalm car, I can tell you that a lot of Packard guys really only like the Packard or Packard semi custom cataloged cars and don't pay much attention to the one off customs. I like the one offs because I think that is one thing that sets the cars of the classic era apart.

That may be true of the hard core Packard guys but I don't believe it to be true of the general Classic Car connoisseur. The catalog customs are nice, but there is nothing like a European body. The styling is one thing, but the level of material and bank vault quality are over the top.

Dave, perhaps you could give us the story of how you can to own this gem?

[Guest Packard12Man]

I am new to this blogging and have been enjoying all the comments posted re the Custom Bodied Packards.

I have what I think are some interesting photo's that I would like get your comments on.

I hope that it is okay that I have a lot more questions than answers.

Two photo's of a 1936 Packard Boattail by Fernadez and Darrin. In 30 years I have never heard of any reference to this car. Does anybody know anything about it?

Looking forward to joining the fun once I get the hang of this.

Brian

[K8096]

That looks more like a 1928 - 1930 Auburn boattail body grafted onto a Packard chassis.

[K8096]

Dave,

The poster referred to the car in the last photos posted as a Fernandez and Darrin body. I respectfully disagree. That's a first series Auburn boattail body grafted onto a Packard chassis. Click on the photos to make them large and look at the body closely. It's quite obvious. Look at the slant of the door openings and the slant of the golf club door opening. Identical to the first series Auburn body.

Edited January 28, 2011 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

It seems to me I recall an article in an older edition of The Classic Car (maybe Cormorant, but I think the CCCA pub.) that covered a very simillar speedster body on a Packard chassis. For years this was considered a controversial car until Dutch Darrin himself authenticated it. May even be the same car, but I am not sure. Does anyone more expert than me recall the car I am thinking of? Body may even have been a leftover Auburn - but done by Darrin & Fernandez.

Attractive car but I have to agree at first glance it sure looks like an ABS to me! Would be interesting to know more about this car.

[K8096]

That could be, but I would want proof (old photo) of car to prove Fernandez & Darrin took an old Auburn body & put it on a newer chassis. Things like that did happen, but nowadays stuff gets cobbled up and its hard to tell what the truth is.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I will check the stack of Classic Car magazines sitting on my bench in the garage this weekend as I think that is where the article came from. I remember some details including the fact the body was slightly off center by design, and the car was owned by a "tinkerer" for years who did an engine swap, contributing to the thought it was cobbled together. At some pont Darrin was contacted (from what I hear not always responsive to collector inquiries) and he did recall the car in great detail. After looking at this I am pretty sure this is the same car. I think it was a lighter color or even white primer in the article though.

[alsancle]

That could be, but I would want proof (old photo) of car to prove Fernandez & Darrin took an old Auburn body & put it on a newer chassis. Things like that did happen, but nowadays stuff gets cobbled up and its hard to tell what the truth is.

Jason, if the car in question is this one I'm thinking of then you are correct and was a custom built by Dick Saunders in the late 1930s or 1940s.

Edited February 2, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Some pics at this site of a 36 Packard Speedster:

1936 Packard Twelve Images, Information and History | Conceptcarz.com

Might be the same car but with two-tone paint, rear mount and no skirts. Might also be the Darrin car, which is discussed on page 93 of Great Cars of the 20th Century where it is described as above, including the creme color. If these are all the same car it has not lived what one would call a settled life.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

This site says the two-tone car was made in the 80s.

1936 PACKARD V12 SPEEDSTER | Motor Cars Auction</li> | Pre War | Christie's

[West Peterson]

Yes. That's the same car. The spare tire has now been removed during its latest restoration. If I remember being told correctly, Fran Roxas restored the car most recently.

It is indeed an Auburn boattail speedster body. The work to put it together was done by Fernandez et Darrin, who (as I remember the story) used some leftover bodies and equipped about six different cars with them. Two of the cars are known to exist. The other one is a Delage, which, the last time I saw it some 30 years ago or more, was silver and red, with a white interior. Jim Southard owned it for a while, and I think it was eventually sold to someone in Europe.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

West, by that you mean the car referenced by Packard12man is same one in the CCCA article. Mahoning63's post is an 80s creation, according to the story on the link. I cannot believe the auction result on that car - $345K for those who did not read the details on the link. For a non historic custom creation built in the 80s??? Lots of eyeball but wow...

The authentic car is nice looking, but I would imagine owner is constantly questioned about authenticity. How many times does he have to hear "by gosh, that is an ABS grafted to a Packard chassis, must have been a closed car at one time..."

[West Peterson]

I don't know how accurate the "1980s story is." That story may have been the only one known at the time. The buyer of the car was a non-car guy with a lot of money. He immediately sent it to Roxas to be restored, then donated the car to the Packard museum in Dayton.

It's actually a very nice looking car now that it's without the two-tone color scheme. It'd look even better with some of the "glitz" taken off, such as the chrome on the back of the front fender, etc.

[alsancle]

The speedster pictured below was built by Dick Saunders in up state NY in the 1940s. He took a Auburn Speedster body which he had mounted on a Marmon V16 chassis and placed it on a Packard 8 chassis which I believe previously had a conv coupe body on it. He then added a V12 engine from a sedan. There were other modifications including twin superchargers that was performed later.

Edited January 28, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

This site says the two-tone car was made in the 80s.

1936 PACKARD V12 SPEEDSTER | Motor Cars Auction | Pre War | Christie's

Incorrect. See my post above. Sometime in the 1940s and then continuously refined for the next 30 years or so.

[West Peterson]

It's gotta be the same car. I'm curious now as to where Fernandez et Darrin fits in. Did F&D do the work for Saunders, or did Saunders do it himself? As I said, the story I've heard is that F&D did about a half-dozen of these "conversions", on different mfc. chassis. The only other one known is the Delage. It's also possible that the F&D story is completely made up as well, as someone else alluded to earlier.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

If it is made up then it got by whoever wrote about the car in The Classic Car. I believe it is in one of 15 or so issues in my garage, curiousity got me now will see if I can't find the article.

Interesting car either way, but the article references a handful of leftover bodies purchased and fitted to new chassis. A.J.s story sounds convincing as well, maybe yet another car?

[Guest Packard12Man]

Thanks for all the information on the maybe F&D Boattail. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Kind of disappointed - I thought I had stumbled upon a long lost one of a kind discovered in some French Château after 60 years with a great history. Still confused as to the F&D Connection but I guess I am not the only one.

[alsancle]

Thanks for all the information on the maybe F&D Boattail. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Kind of disappointed - I thought I had stumbled upon a long lost one of a kind discovered in some French Château after 60 years with a great history. Still confused as to the F&D Connection but I guess I am not the only one.

Car has a great history just not F&D. As a very well documented custom built in the 1940s it stands on it's on as a cool car. I've never seen the reference to F&D using Auburn bodies - West - do you remember where you might have seen that? Ultimately there are period photos of almost every coachbuilt car to be found somewhere. If none exist it doesn't mean the car was not built in period but it usually requires careful additional research.

[Guest Packard12Man]

Dave Mitchell, you posted a photo of a 34 Dietrich Conv Coupe under post number 112. I am curious as to whether you may know where this photo was taken? The sinister looking building intrigues me.

I suspect it may be Tommy Manville admitting himself to the insane asylum after his 13th divorce.

[alsancle]

Dave Mitchell, you posted a photo of a 34 Dietrich Conv Coupe under post number 112. I am curious as to whether you may know where this photo was taken? The sinister looking building intrigues me.

I suspect it may be Tommy Manville admitting himself to the insane asylum after his 13th divorce.

That would only be an insane asylum in a movie . Looks like someone's expensive reproduction castle.

[Guest Silverghost]

Tommy Manville had 100 X times as many great cars as he had wives !

Asbestos money as well as other family investments bought both the wives & cars.

Tommy did not keep Wives or Cars very long !

On of my favorite of Tommy's great one-off custom coachwork autos was the famous Rolls~Royce Wind-Blown ,or Wind-Swept, Brewster Springfield Phantom Coupe' New York Commodore Hotel Salon Show Car .

Rich Attwell I believe owns it today ?

My Springfield Phantom I "Special Coupe' " was a prior year's NY Commodore Hotel salon show car !

[Dave Mitchell]

I think it is in Milan, Italy and the car belonged to Count Felice Trossi, aristocratic racing driver and car guy. I am not sure if the house is his or he just parked the car there for a photo, the notes on the back of the photo say it is his home. It would be interesting to know if this is one of the 34s that survive. I know of 3, but perhaps this one is still hidden away in Italy. Perhaps it was at one time sitting in his garage next to his SSK. A nice pair of cars.

[Mahoning63]

That would only be an insane asylum in a movie . Looks like someone's expensive reproduction castle.

"Go to your room Son, you're being punished."

"Which one Dad?"

"Sector IV, Floor 3a, Turret C, Room #9. An don't gab with Cousin Itt when you're up there!"

[Guest Packard12Man]

Dave, thank you for the info on the Dietrich Photo.

I am in agreement with the others that a more detailed story on your Norrmalms Bodied Packard would be interesting.

Mahoning63 - thanks for the good giggle.

I have posted below are a few photo's of pre trailer queen days that I thought you all may enjoy.

The 4 known 11th series Stationery Coupes. Have heard rumors of a 5th in California - anybody know?

Brian

[alsancle]

Great photos, thanks for posting.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So, I settled in and checked a bunch of issues of The Classic Car for the article on the speedster Packard12man presented. No luck, but of course the time was still well spent.

Nice picture of A.J.'s dad's Darrin from an eastern Grand Classic in the 90s and a couple pictures of a Packard speedster done by Bohman & Schwartz in a feature on that coachbuilder. This speedster looks simillar to an Auburn but you can tell by the doors & tail is is not an ABS body, so yet another sporting Packard. A sharp car indeed and unusual work from them.

Meanwhile this thread continues to surface some stunning cars. Still curious about the details in that article on the above speedster, I believe I read it within the last year. Need to look through the stack of old Cormorant's I bought this summer next....

[Dave Mitchell]

Hmmm, I can't think of a Bohman boat tail. I'd like to see a photo of it.

[Dave Mitchell]

Packard12man, welcome to the thread, great photos of the 34 coupes. It would be fun to find one sitting in a field like that.

[Dave Mitchell]

The story of how I got the Norrmalm car is rather long, but the short version is that in 1989 I was in Sweden for a couple months in the summer and I went to a swap meet where I met some Packard guys. They convinced me that I could bring Packard parts when I came to Sweden and I joined the Nordic Packard Owners Club. In the roster I saw the car I remembered from the Phau book, but it took me 3 years to actually find the owner and yet another year before he offered to sell me the car, rather than have me restore it for him as he had originally asked. It was in pieces in the basement garage of a hotel right in the city of Stockholm. The third owners were 18 year old engineering students who had taken the car apart in 1961. I spent a couple of months assembling the car so I could put it in a container and ship it home. The best thing about that was the time that I spent there was terrific and I made several new friends, including the man who I bought the car from and two great historians, Jan Stroman and Jan Melin, who have remained friends to the present day. I was also lucky to meet a man who worked on the car when it was built and learn a lot about the car, the owner, and the coachbuilder. I met the son of the man who designed it and I have driven the exact road from Stockholm to Sodertalje where the car was taken for the first drive when the body was completed. That is the very, very short version of the story.