Custom bodied Packards

[Dave Mitchell]

Brad, I don't think that is Doolittle, but I can look at some of my Air Force history books to check for sure. It seems to me that the car either exists or someone has replicated it, but I am not sure. I thought someone here might comment.

[Dave Mitchell]

Al, The 500/540K and 770s were low production cars and I am not surprised that they were custom built. That 540K Cab A is a stunning car.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Al, can we take a virtual ride in the 540K?? BTW - the Darrin ride was fun, I wish I could have driven it!!

[alsancle]

Al, can we take a virtual ride in the 540K?? BTW - the Darrin ride was fun, I wish I could have driven it!!

My parents used that car in their wedding back in 1963. My brother drove it to his prom in 1985. It has the edmunds head and intake on it and with the overdrive will moves along well.

Next summer I'll have to take a video driving the 500k down the road. My camera died when I was filming the red 540k which was annoying because they drove it around the parking lot a bit which was fun to watch.

[West Peterson]

http://photos.aaca.org/files/4/3/7/9/9/29_packard_neuss_original.jpg

[Dave Mitchell]

Another boat tail speedster

[Dave Mitchell]

Another 34 12 Dietrich runabout and a convertible sedan

[West Peterson]

Another boat tail speedster

Dave

If you look closely, that is the experimental boattail which led to the LeBaron boattail speedster of 1934. It is actually a 1930 Series 734 body, placed on a 12-cylinder chassis.

Edited January 5, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Was thumbing through the latest HMN last night (unfortuantely it is not handy) and in the auction section one of the major houses, maybe B-J is advertising a dual cowl phaeton body on a 37 120 chassis. It is a very unusual looking car - sporty like the 34 Sport Phaeton by the Russian designer whose name escapes me (saw one in a collection in November, very nice) but almost like the body is too big for the car. Maybe someone with the time or interest can spot this car elsewhere will post an image. Otherwise it is a full page ad in the events section.

I also see where someone is making high speed gears for Jr. cars now, but that is another topic...

The Murphy rendering Dave posted a few days ago looks more like a Duesenberg than a Packard to me - probably offered on either chassis or proposed to be anyway. Would make for a pretty nice car I would think.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
It is Phaeton, not Pheaton... (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

I took a couple of photos yesterday of the 38 Graber that was at Pebble this year, the one that was just recently recovered from long storage. Apparently the owner asked for a quick "spritz" in the original paint color to get a better idea of the appearance in original color.

That's a Duesenberg overhead and a 34 LeBaron (replica) phaeton behind.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Thanks for those, Dave. That car, in the right color (which doesn't include the original color) has all the earmarks of a contender for Best of Show at Pebble Beach. Needs to be painted dark, though.

[Owen_Dyneto]

I fully agree West, no matter whether that's the original color or not, it's not the least bit flattering to the car.

[keiser31]

I took a couple of photos yesterday of the 38 Graber that was at Pebble this year, the one that was just recently recovered from long storage. Apparently the owner asked for a quick "spritz" in the original paint color to get a better idea of the appearance in original color.

That's a Duesenberg overhead and a 34 LeBaron (replica) phaeton behind.

I LOVE it that the Graber Packard has 1931-32 Chrysler headlamps!!

[Owen_Dyneto]

I LOVE it that the Graber Packard has 1931-32 Chrysler headlamps!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Actually not, they're Bosch, at least the innards and lenses. Can't speak for the shells. It was still a couple of years before US headlamps were legal in many European countries, that's why so many overseas prewar Packards (and others) have Lucas, Marchal, Zeiss & Bosch lamps, to name just a few.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[keiser31]

I LOVE it that the Graber Packard has 1931-32 Chrysler headlamps!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Actually not, their Bosch, at least the innards and lenses. Can't speak for the shells.

The shells or buckets is what I meant.

[Dave Mitchell]

It will be nice to see the Graber restored. It certainly got a lot of attention at Pebble this year even dirty with bird droppings. It had blackout covers on the lights so you could see that they weren't Packard, but not that they were Bosch conversions. In Sweden, the American lights were not illegal, but the man who worked on my car when it was built in 1936 and did the conversion told me that the Bosch lights were just a lot better lights. He also said that the Lorraine spotlights were better than the European ones, along with American heaters, and they just used what was best. Who owns the Graber 120 now? Color choice will be tricky on that car. I have seen photos when the car was new and it cetainly looked good. I wonder if they have evidence that it was the color they sprayed it.

[West Peterson]

In either case, the headlights and lenses are not the ones with which it was equipped when new. I am not a fan of the original light color at all... even when viewing the original photos. I DO like the black tires, though.

The car is currently owned, or was at the time shown at Pebble Beach, by a Swiss.

[Dave Mitchell]

Those look like Marchall or CiBie lights, French rather than German. The car was for sale at Pebble - since it is in NJ I thought perhaps it might have passed to one of the big collectors there.

[West Peterson]

I agree. They look identical to the ones that were on our 1939 Delahaye. I think Sam Mann should own it, and park it next to his Graber-bodied Duesenberg. The design looks almost identical, albeit much smaller.

Edited January 5, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

At least one write up indicated the owner wanted to leave it as found; well that is no longer an option...

Dark blue, red interior, tan top, BWs & no driving lights would work for me.

[alsancle]

Thanks for those, Dave. That car, in the right color (which doesn't include the original color) has all the earmarks of a contender for Best of Show at Pebble Beach. Needs to be painted dark, though.

One of my favorite cars for sure and I agree with you West on the color.

[alsancle]

Was thumbing through the latest HMN last night (unfortuantely it is not handy) and in the auction section one of the major houses, maybe B-J is advertising a dual cowl phaeton body on a 37 120 chassis. I

Here is the auction description:

<table width="100%" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding-right: 5px; text-align: right; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;">

</td> <td colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top;"> Fully restored Packard 8 with one-off custom coachwork by Knightstown Body Company who built custom bodies from 1900 to the 1940's. Features a beautiful caramel leather interior, black top and brilliant chrome. </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="padding-right: 5px; text-align: right; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;"> Details: </td> <td colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top;"> Packard was the favorite of custom coachbuilders. The quality of its engines and drivetrains perfectly complemented the tastes of the clients of the great American coachbuilders like Dietrich and LeBaron whose individual custom and catalog custom designs on Packard chassis are the staple of today's great concours d'elegance. Packard's models evolved along with the 30's and in 1935 the 120 was introduced, a medium-priced model with 120" wheelbase, powerful Packard Eight engine and a catalog of standard bodies. The 120 was an immediate commercial success. Just three years later, in 1937, Packard sold nearly 10 120's for every Super 8. None of them had Phaeton coachwork from the factory, but there wasn't a Phaeton among the many cataloged Super 8 or 12 bodies, either. That was left to the few remaining independent coachbuilders like Knightstown, a firm well known for its professional coachwork. Exactly who ordered this unique Knightstown Phaeton with its fixed rigid roof and piliarless design that foreshadowed the 4-door hardtops of the mid-50's is not known but they and Knightstown anticipated a trend that would sweep the automobile industry in the decade after World War II. This rare and intriguingly ingenious hardtop bodied Phaeton Packard 120 has had a full cosmetic restoration in black with beautiful caramel leather interior, black top, wide white wall tires and brilliant chrome. It is an unusually long wheelbase chassis for the 120 drivetrain and is equipped with Tripp driving lights, Packard hubcaps, wheel trim rings, a folding rear seat windshield and trunk. Rear wheel skirts are a bridge between the classic and postwar eras. "Unique" is an overworked term, but it applies perfectly to this 1937 Packard 120 Knightstown hardtop Dual Windshield Phaeton, one of the most imaginative, innovative, elegant and intriguing automobiles of the 1930's. </td></tr></tbody></table>

[Packardbarry]

:eek: WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!! reading all the theads a lot of info has rolled in.

Believe the car still is around http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr38/3576666229/

On the PACKARD CLUB site the car was noted as "745 - Major Glasscock". First time i saw this yeasterday. Have to assume they were ref to the man in the car. Any guess as to who the Major is?

I blew the photo up a few months back and it looked like the plate said "Hx".

Another interesting note is i found out that Frederick C. Crawford, CRAWFORD AUTO AND AVIATION MUSEUM, was President of Thompson Products Corp. Maybe it was him behind this creation. He had to be one hell of a car guy. http://www.wrhs.org/index.php/crawford/Thomson

]

:confused:So who is THOMPSON and was this speedster just built for fun?

Ive seen this photo before and thought maybe a movie car, being the house looks Hollywood, and the driver looks like a chauffeur maybe from a movie studio.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Packardbarry (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

Knightstown Body Company?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Al, thanks for posting. "unique" may be the best term for the Knightstown 120. A little more flattering angle in HMN as I recall!

A rare one, though, no?

[alsancle]

Al, thanks for posting. "unique" may be the best term for the Knightstown 120. A little more flattering angle in HMN as I recall!

A rare one, though, no?

Not sure there is a better angle.

[alsancle]

Knightstown Body Company?

Coachbult.com - Knightstown Buggy Company

[Owen_Dyneto]

If I remember correctly this Packard was by Knightstown, shown at the Greenwich CT Concours in 2007. Beauty is a subjective thing, but I can't say it looked any better in real life than in the photo, perhaps worse, IMO.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

I agree that the Graber 120 would look better in a dark color, or even a light metallic, and somehow it doesn't look as good in the "trial" color as it does in the photos when new. I guess the historian and purist in me sort of struggles with not putting a well documented car back close to the way it originally was. It is easy to get colors wrong when you deviate from original or at least from the color pallet that was available when the car was new. I know that you can paint your car any color you want, and especially with a custom people can't really say you are wrong, but sometimes I really wonder what people were thinking when they chose the colors, even on cars at Pebble. I have seen some "important" and famous cars that leave me cold just because of the color. I saw one of my all time favorite cars after a high point, expensive restoration and liked it better before, just because of the color.

[keiser31]

I agree that the Graber 120 would look better in a dark color, or even a light metallic, and somehow it doesn't look as good in the "trial" color as it does in the photos when new. I guess the historian and purist in me sort of struggles with not putting a well documented car back close to the way it originally was. It is easy to get colors wrong when you deviate from original or at least from the color pallet that was available when the car was new. I know that you can paint your car any color you want, and especially with a custom people can't really say you are wrong, but sometimes I really wonder what people were thinking when they chose the colors, even on cars at Pebble. I have seen some "important" and famous cars that leave me cold just because of the color. I saw one of my all time favorite cars after a high point, expensive restoration and liked it better before, just because of the color.

I agree Dave, color is everything! Usually, when someone tells me about a car, the first thing I ask is, "What color is it?"

[Dave Mitchell]

One of my first questions too! Besides, sometimes you can tell when a car was restored by the colors on it. Or the owner - in the 80s/early 90s if you saw a wild color on a big classic, there was a good chance that Noel Thompson had owned it.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep, see thread in CCCA section. There is a 34 V-12 coupe roadster in my neck of the woods that is - - bright orange. This particular car was in the coral at Hershey this year. The open body wears the color well but it is still unusual to say the least. This one is a tough one.

Any 34 V-12 represents the best of the best to me, but I would think such an unusual color could be off putting to a potential buyer, especially at the prices these cars bring. Return on investment seems to be another reason to choose a more typical color. Imagine the cost to properly dissasemble and repaint that car?

Edited January 6, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I agree that the Graber 120 would look better in a dark color, or even a light metallic, and somehow it doesn't look as good in the "trial" color as it does in the photos when new. I guess the historian and purist in me sort of struggles with not putting a well documented car back close to the way it originally was. It is easy to get colors wrong when you deviate from original or at least from the color pallet that was available when the car was new. I know that you can paint your car any color you want, and especially with a custom people can't really say you are wrong, but sometimes I really wonder what people were thinking when they chose the colors, even on cars at Pebble. I have seen some "important" and famous cars that leave me cold just because of the color. I saw one of my all time favorite cars after a high point, expensive restoration and liked it better before, just because of the color.

Dark would be my preference but this particular car should be brought back to the original color. Significant cars with known history should brought back to their original state. Not-so-significant or unknown history you should paint it whatever color you like.

[Dave Mitchell]

1931 Dietrich sedan

[Dave Mitchell]

Do you think that a Packard 120 would really be a contender at Pebble?

[alsancle]

Do you think that a Packard 120 would really be a contender at Pebble?

Off the top of my head the Mormon Meteor is the only American chassis car to win in quite a while. While the car is stunning, my guess would be no. However, depending on who bought it, who restored it, and what else was there that year you never know...

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yeah 120 Chassis - Power to the People!! (well, sort of...) Perhaps the European coachwork would help. I would guess the car is not exclusive enough to win there although beautiful. I would be the first to say the 120 while a great car, is not a Classic. While the Graber coachwork would make the car a Full Classic I would think the basic chassis would be a deal breaker. Maybe we will see in 2012?

[Guest Silverghost]

When I think about the Pebble Beach Concours competition I think of the statement once made by Jay Leno ~~~

Pebble Beach is a great Concours Show event where Millionaires & Billionaires can compete equally on a level playing field !

To me~~~

That just about sums it up !

Edited January 7, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I have seen some "important" and famous cars that leave me cold just because of the color. I saw one of my all time favorite cars after a high point, expensive restoration and liked it better before, just because of the color.

My thoughts exactly after excitedly anticipating seeing the fresh restoration of Nethercutt's 734 Speedster Victoria. One of the most disappointing moments in my life (car related, mind you).

[West Peterson]

Do you think that a Packard 120 would really be a contender at Pebble?

If the right person owned it, I absolutely think it could win.