Custom bodied Packards

[Restorer32]

Don't be cynical West.

[Guest Silverghost]

West & Jeff :

I was THINKING the exact same thing~~~

But was afraid to voice my opinion on this forum~~~

I get enough negative feedback from other opinions & stands that I have taken in the past on this forum here !

West ~~~

I stand 100% BEHIND you on this one !

I will let West take the "Flack" for saying what I had been thinking all along !

Edited January 7, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[K8096]

"Pebble Beach is a great Concours Show event where Millionaires & Billionaires can compete equally on a level playing field !"

Another variation of this, and I think Leno said it too:

Antique car restoration shops are the one entity to take Billionaires and make them into Millionaires!

[Dave Mitchell]

Well, I don't think that millionaires and billionaires ever compete on an even playing field, or that there are many restorers who are millionaires, certainly none that are billionaires. Thousandaires maybe. An American car is going to have an uphill battle at most concours, and as good as that Graber body looks on the Packard, it is still a small car. The Graber Duesenberg J is a great car on one of the best chassis, and it was at Pebble owned by one of the right people... That said, the only way for that car to win is in the hands of the right person and right restorer. That car would be an easy restoration also.

The Graber 120 is without question a CCCA classic, or would be if the owner applied for status. There are other classic 120s, with both American and European custom bodies.

[Dave Mitchell]

It was fun to see a 120 at Pebble hear people excited about it. It would be fun to see a class at Pebble of European bodied American cars.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Dave Mitchell (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Interesting subject. My view is that in many cases the custom bodied cars are not as appealing as the Packard body, particularly for the non American body builders. This one from Australia is an example, looks like a 7th or 8th Series Standard eight. The body was by Kellow and Falkiner of Melbourne.

[Earl B.]

As I've often heard..."It's not what you know....it's who you know." I guess it's true of many things...B

[West Peterson]

If the right person owned it, I absolutely think it could win.

You guys are reading too much between the lines. I meant that if the right person owned it, it would get restored properly, and in a color that has a chance of winning. Sheesh!!

David

I'm not sure what you meant by your comment on size, as this car is bigger than the cars that won Pebble Beach in 1990, 1997, 1998 and 2000 and 2003.

[Dave Mitchell]

Ah yes, but all those cars were French.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Best of show at PB may never be cheap, but in a way maybe it could be less expensive than the competition. Just how much do the three words "Pebble Beach Winner" increase the value of a vehicle? I guess "invited" says a lot, but not quite as much...

[K8096]

I think what is meant by the "making billionaires into millionaires" comment is how the cost of a restoration has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. I remember in the early 1990's many shops were at around $35/hour. Now they're at $75/hour. For an 8 hour day that comes to $600/day or $3000 a week. And that's just labor. That doesn't include materials like upholstery or chrome. For the guy who bought a car in the 1970's with hopes of restoring it when he retired, all I have to say is I hope he had a very successful career. The "standard of restoration" has gotten so high that in most cases the do it your selfer is out of the game. The cars have become pieces of art and jewelry, and have ceased to be automobiles.

[Dave Mitchell]

I'll be happy to talk about the cost of restoration, but let's start another thread. I know that the government tells us there is no inflation, but everything, everything, that I buy or service I pay for is more expensive than it used to be. Also the quality is worse and nothing is made in the US.

[Dave Mitchell]

Even the Chevy and Ford dealers charge more than $75/hr. If you think a headlight for a Packard is expensive, buy one for a modern car, or worse yet, a computer module.

[Dave Mitchell]

I have a good friend who does his own restoration and he is very competitive at the highest levels - and he has better sense of color, fit and finish than a lot of big collectors, which helps a lot. He doesn't suffer from the malady of some big collectors who say something like "I already have 6 cars painted like this one was originally, now I think one that is 4 tones of purple with green stripes will look great and get a lot of attention." He also doesn't cut corners. There are still guys out there doing nice restorations on their own. I don't know where to get cheap chrome, paint supplies (paint and primers are not cheap), upholstery materials etc.

[Dave Mitchell]

DavidMc - I agree, the standard Packard bodies are across the board very, very nice. I guess that is a good part of the reason why I am a Packard guy. I like the standard sedans and convertibles a lot, but it is fun to see the unusual cars too. For me the custom body is what sets the pre WWII cars apart. There is no real equivilent to the custom body today. You can order special interior or equipment on your Rolls, Aston Martin, Maybach etc, but given the way that cars are built now, it is almost impossible to build a one off modern car. There are plenty of guys building hot rods or hobby cars, but not cars for everyday use like these custom bodied cars were. In the custom body era, you could go in and order a one off car that was technologically as good as any car on the road and yet express your personal style or build a car for your needs, and have something different than anyone else.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Deleted my post on resto costs as I saw Dave's nudge to keep things on topic. One comment regarding this thread and restoration is if you are lucky enough to have a coach built car, or even luckier a one off, unless you really know your stuff you kind of short change the car to do an amateur restoration.

[K8096]

Here's the 1927 Murphy conv coupe mentioned earlier here.

[Dave Mitchell]

I think that the Packard is fabulous, not out of proportion at all. I like the balance of hood and body and I think that the rear treatment and fenders flow nicely. The low roofline is terrific and it does look absolutely like a convertible sedan. Do you have photos of it when it was new? It would be interesting to see what it would look like with the leather top. I like the drop in the top of the bodyline, and now that you share the Duesenberg photos, it makes sense that it was a convertible design, with that drop used to keep the top low when down. Interesting things on the Duesenberg are the Packard headlights and tailights, Packard or Packard copied hood top and Cadillac or Cadillac copied hood sides, the rear fenders look like Packard too. The door hinges look the same on the Packard and the Duesenberg. Do you know which of these cars was built first?

The Murphy looks good, too bad the side windows are up, the lines are so clean with the disappearing top. If you compare this with other cars from 1927, it is pretty sharp and you can see where the design of the now famous Duesenberg Murphy roadster came from.

[K8096]

Yes, there are original photos of the Packard, taken in NYC, I don't have a scanner that works though to post. It does look lower with a shiny, fine grain black leather roof.

Here's a Darrin that was at Hershey a couple years ago. I guess it's the only Darrin convertible with sidemounts.

[Dave Mitchell]

To me the 37 Rollston is far more attractive than the 41 Darrin. There should be a penalty for showing a Darrin with the top up, as with Auburn speedsters and Mercedes Benz special roadsters.

[Dave Mitchell]

A couple of photos of the 42 Darrin at Tom Mix's. No sidemounts and now a trunk again.

[Dave Mitchell]

photos

[jbbuick22]

Tom's 42 Darrin was extensively modified when he bought it. The work was done in house,

(TM restoration), using his 41 as a pattern. That's the 734 in the background.

JB

[Joe Block]

Gosh, I must have 100 photos of unique one-off and series custom prewar Packards. Here's a 39 Super 8 by Franay. Used by an army staff car in Paris by both the Germans and later the Americans. Photos by this respondent.

That a sweet open car 39, I like it too.

[keiser31]

I have posted this in the past, but not here. Thought it would be appropriate. I took this in El Cajon, California at a swap meet in the late 1970s/early '80s.

Edited January 11, 2011 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Here's a one-off from 1940. Recall seeing this in one of Kimes' books (I think). Has Lincoln Zephyr headlights integrated into the fenders, an extended hood, adjustable seats (and pedals?) and many other features. Saw it at Meadowbrook back around 1994. Dazzling!

More photos here:

1940 Packard 1805 Bohman & Schwartz Convertible Victoria | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Dave Mitchell]

I really like this car a lot. I was lucky enough to ride with Bill in it when he drove through to get his award at Meadowbrook that year. I think that the lines and proportions on it are very nice, and work well with the 148" wheelbase. When you look at the photos on Flickr, it makes the Darrin look cramped on the swb. This is a one off built for Williams of Shaving creme fame.

[Mahoning63]

A great recollection, you were lucky indeed! It really is incredible the extent to which B & S altered this car. Not only was the body scratch built but it seems (and please correct if wrong) that the steering shaft length/rake and pedal assembly were both altered. Gordon Buehrig said that proportions are key to any great design and this long wheelbase car proves it. No need to bring down the height.

Would love to have seen someone order up a 4 door sport sedan version. Did a photo alt of this car many years ago to show such a possibility and liked the result.

[Mahoning63]

Just stumbled upon this 1940 Packard custom.

Background story:

Sport Custom - Kustomrama

[alsancle]

+1

I think it looks great on that wheelbase.

I really like this car a lot. I was lucky enough to ride with Bill in it when he drove through to get his award at Meadowbrook that year. I think that the lines and proportions on it are very nice, and work well with the 148" wheelbase. When you look at the photos on Flickr, it makes the Darrin look cramped on the swb. This is a one off built for Williams of Shaving creme fame.

[Dave Mitchell]

Bohman & Schwartz did a sedan in 1940. I will try to find a photo of it and scan it. (I lost a lot of photos in a flood last year, and I hope I have the ones of this car.) The present owner doesn't show the car much, which is a shame; it is on the 148 wheelbase and has more smooth body lines than a standard sedan. What most people remember about it is the running boards - I have never seen anything like them on any other vintage car - they slide out from under the car when you open the door.

[Mahoning63]

Is it the black limo on pg 640 in Kimes' Packard book?

[Guest Silverghost]

Bohman & Schwartz built quite a few custom coachwork modifications for disabled & elderly owners.

The retractable style running-boards you mention, along with special custom matching wheelchairs, ramps, seats, and other custom access modifications were commonly done by B&S for many years.

They were really the first coachbuilder to work with the disabled .

Derham in Rosemont PA later also made similar disability mods to custom coachwork.

Does anyone have any photos of such custom disability modifications ?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Custom by Oeste Pedromon:)

[Restorer32]

needs whitewalls

[Guest Silverghost]

Jeff~~~

You are just as bad a teaser as I am~~~

You just read my mind !

[Dave Mitchell]

It is in the Kimes book. At least a couple of the B & S cars for disabled survive. There is a 38 12 sedan with part of the back seat made as a wheel chair with a turntable and tracks to get it in and out of the car. I have a 38 7 pass sedan body with a removable B pillar.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This may be more of a CCCA type question but since I am not a member there I will ask here (same group is active on these forums anyway, Packard or CCCA! )

The well known work of B&S makes me wonder what the cut off is in terms of Classic status or "coachbuilt" vs. "Professional cars". These are essentially coach built vehicles, yet I do not think in general terms they are considered Classics - could it be utilitarian or professional use vs. transportation? What about an airport limo - say a stretched Packard from the Classic Era?

West or others, feel free to move off this thread if it is too far afield, just thought I would start discussion as I really do not know too much about where the boundaries (if any) are. (BTW call me silly but I think the WWW are still on the '40 Packard, West is merely hiding them for that picture..)

Is there enough interest in a thread for Packard professional cars? I saw a very rough '40 ambulance not too long ago, and remember thinking it really is a coachbuilt car, someone (not me though, too much of a "rewarding project") should save it.

Thanks

Edited January 14, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
spelling as usual. (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Steve, I have been wondering the same thing. How do pro cars fit into CCCA or don't they?

[alsancle]

My off the cuff response is that if the body is on a classic chassis (regardless of the intention of the body) then it's a Classic. If the body is intended for commercial use and is on a non-classic chassis then not a Classic.