Friday Judging

[Bill Stoneberg]

Considering this was an experiment, what about continuing Friday judging ?

No comments about judged shows versus non judged shows please...

Yes, and I know the driven class cars should have been closer or more inclusive.

But did you like the Friday 400 point judging ?

[buick5563]

Yes.

[dkbuick75]

I found nothing wrong with judging on Friday-- it may mean arriving at a National meet a day earlier than normal to allow enough time to reclean the car for 400 point judging after driving cross country, but usually your car has been detailed as best possible for judging BEFORE you leave home, but there will always be touch up issues that need to be addressed no matter what day judging is done. As I see it one of the additional pluses to Friday judging, is that if we were to encounter a Friday that was worse than the early rain (monsoon) encountered at this years meet and judging day was totally a washout due to weather & rain, we would still have the option of judging the cars on Saturday, hoping that the weather that day would be better.

Would put admin & tabulation back under the gun of limited time to prepare before the banquet, but it would be the same as things have been done in the past. There were still glitches this year with the photos matching at the awards banquet, as in the past, even though there was an additional day to compose everything-- so whats the difference---we will probably never have a "Perfect" awards banquet where every photo is correct for whatever reason. It's nice to put a matching photo of the car with the award, but it is not the end of the world it there is a glitch.-- Mine was among one of the glitches this year- and it has happened before-- I haven't lost any sleep over it. I was still presented the award the car earned. We just have to make sure that there is some kind of activity planned for Saturday during the day to give everyone something to do. The idea of holding an "Open" show on Saturday seemed to work out very well-- as long as we have a site capable of doing so-- and I like the idea of the proceeds from the Saturday show be donated to a worthy cause such as the "Make a Wish Foundation" or something similar.

Edited August 8, 2010 by dkbuick75 (see edit history)

[WWS]

I enjoyed the friday judging. It was finnished and out of the way, and I could enjoy a great day with my father looking over all the cars in attendance on saturday

[Booreatta]

I agree Friday is the way to go. Leaves more time for other things that are planned in the area. Get the judging out of the way, and I am sure that the folks do the number crunching will have more time and will be more relaxing for them. Less stress

[Smartin]

No should be on Sat. not Friday. other clubs do it on Sat.

Is that the only reason you want it on Saturday? Friday judging allows the judges to have much more time to calculate and properly set up the awards for the next evening. Have you ever been involved in this process? They can use all the time they can get.

I'm ok with either day, but I like the idea of Friday judging. Though some might also like more time to detail their cars before they're judged.

[rivgs]

As Don said, If friday were to have a wash out, you could always reschedule to saturday. I thought it was great even if all the meeting seemed to be crammed into one day.

[Thriller]

One real positive is that it resulted in many of the cars then being driven to Jewell since the judging was over and folks weren't as concerned about every speck of dust.

That said, I found it really shortened things. It pushes the judging school to Thursday, so there seemed to be less time to do stuff and get things ready.

A positive is giving more time for judging administration, and could open up judges to assist with administration or the preparation.

That said, it could also have left time for photo retakes, if there had been a checklist kept of the photos that were taken / turned out versus the cars that were (expected to be) in attendance at the meet. As Don stated, it isn't the end of the world not to have your car's photo up when you are presented with an award, but it would be nice...it also gives more folks at the banquet the chance to put a name / face with the car.

I guess I'm of mixed feelings about it. There are advantages and disadvantages to it. If it came to a vote right now, I'd probably abstain since I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Had I not been parking cars on Saturday for the open show, I'm not sure what my family and I would have been up to. One thing that is nice to have is a period of time with cars parked in their classes that isn't specifically at judging time so that people can observe / learn / ask questions / etc - things like model-specific information or perhaps get some interesting photos of a row of bumpers / fins / lights.

[TxBuicks]

There were 113 cars in the Driven class on Saturday, of which 54 were also judged in the BCA formal judging on Friday; either 400, Modified, or Archival. An additional 23 cars were Display only on Friday and Driven Class on Saturday, making a total of 77 cars that participated both days. That's 68%. Based on that I'd say people liked the judging on Friday and Driven on Saturday format.

On a completely different note. Give the photographer a break. The rain shut down the photo booth for a good portion of Friday, and made it hectic when it was up. It is a difficult task that was complicated by the weather. There have been banquets where the photos went very well. It is not impossible to do. The one in Colorado last year was almost perfect, and the judging was done on Saturday. The best one I witnessed was managed by none other than Bill Stoneberg during the most recent Texas shows. And if he can do it, anyone can!

[Thriller]

Hey Roy, I wasn't trying to be harsh with respect to the photographer. If a tripod is set up in a particular location and the cars are in a particular location, the photos should be pretty consistent. I understand there would have been issues with photos on Friday in the weather, but generally photos and the safety check are done at essentially the same time, which has to be done before the judging, so in a sense, there needn't have been any photos taken on Friday. When I think back, I don't recall them photographing my card nor getting particulars, so in my case (photo taken Wednesday morning when things were not hectic), I don't know what happened. If the photos were poor, if they were being copied over to a computer and looked at on a daily basis, some effort could have been made to get another photo of the car...again, in my case it wasn't hard to find as it was parked in class all week and a good proportion of the folks knew me and that it was my car.

I'm not saying I would have done better - I am also human and I know it, therefore imperfect. It was just a disappointment at the time not to have the car on screen.

On a related note, perhaps someone else who maybe has notes on the order of the presentation could run the computer, rather than the announcer / presenter. Pete seemed to tire of not being able to find the correct car as the evening progressed.

So there were only 59 cars in the Driven Class that weren't judged in another format? I thought over the past few years that we were growing that class and that we were well over 100. While it is nice to see folks taking advantage of being able to enter more than one class of judging, it is a bit disappointing to me that there weren't more driven cars overall.

[NTX5467]

Derek, from observation of mine when we were planning the last meet in Plano, there is NO particular way to predict what vehicles will attend and in what classes . . . NOR how many will receive awards. This makes award planning a total crapshoot, even for the National Level Awards. Of course, once registration closes, it should be possible to make a better prediction from past shows, but you have no way of knowing if what used to be a Bronze has been extensively upgraded in the pursuit of a Gold award--or it could go the other way, too.

In planning for the Plano meets, we had Saturday 400 Point Judging as that's the way it always had been. I heard comments that people would get off of work on Friday, pack the car, and head to the meet, arriving in time to get things set-up and the car detailed before Saturday AM. With those orientations, having Friday judging for the 400 Point group would have meant (according to some) that some people would be excluded due to their work schedules.

Dynamics of the Friday judging dictate that people generally will have to be at the meet one day earlier (with additional expenses for lodging and such), but more and more people have been coming "early" for many years, so the "weekend only" orientation may not be what it used to be. Still, getting the 400 Point Judging out of the way can free up massive amounts of time for participants to do other things, comb the swap meet, or just hang out with friends and such.

It also seems, as mentioned, that having Friday 400 Point Judging would significantly decrease the stress of judging administration and tabulation. Also, do NOT forget about what it takes to get the AWARDS manufactured and correctly staged for their presentation at the awards banquet. In the prior Saturday judging format, only a matter of HOURS and MINUTES is available--been there, done that . . . twice. Sure, like judging administration, we got it done, but it was hectic and intense.

Roy's outstanding computerization of judging administration, in addition to other aspects of the meet, have helped streamline many things, but there are still things that must be in place for other things to happen . . . before they CAN happen.

Although I was not there, from my prior experiences, I'd vote for Friday 400 Point Judging at future BCA National Meets. As has been mentioned, this format can allow show participants to actually do something other than worry about "the show" as the weekend progresses.

As the following year's meet dates are known well in advance, if you might plan to attend, get your "dibs" on the necessary vacation dates BEFORE anybody else might. Start saving a few dollars to pay for the additional lodging expenses early-on, too. A neat vacation, just like a successful BCA National Meet, can require some long-term planning to be the great event it can be. As a contingency plan, plan on going ANYWAY!

Thanks, Bill, for seeking input on this subject. I was curious what others might say about it, in the orientation of "continuous improvement".

Just some thoughts!

NTX5467

Edited August 9, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

This was my first National. He**, my first BCA meet of any kind. ! So cant say which is better. But seemed to me that lots of cars left the show field by Sat morning. Perhaps this was because they moved to Driven, or to the open show. But looked a little barren for the Sat morning public.

LOVED the show!!

Ben

[buick5563]

113 cars driven is approximately 1/4 of the cars registered, yes? I think that is pretty good, or at least on par with past shows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Thriller]

Derek, from observation of mine when we were planning the last meet in Plano, there is NO particular way to predict what vehicles will attend and in what classes . . . NOR how many will receive awards. This makes award planning a total crapshoot, even for the National Level Awards. Of course, once registration closes, it should be possible to make a better prediction from past shows, but you have no way of knowing if what used to be a Bronze has been extensively upgraded in the pursuit of a Gold award--or it could go the other way, too.

As usual I suspect I'm not making myself clear. I was just thinking with respect to the photos, that a checklist could be kept of cars photographed against the list of registered 400 point cars. As those photos were moved from the digital camera to a computer, a few minutes taken to look at the photos could determine if some didn't turn out well enough, and then some effort could be made to have a re-take done. I don't know exactly how it is done overall - I had volunteered to help out with photography in Rochester, but when I showed up for my shift I was told there were enough people there (don't understand why I was scheduled at that time then) and to go away. When my wife came there looking for me, they told her I never showed up...funny how I probably enjoyed myself more about 20 yards away parking cars anyway. All that is to say, I'm just trying to put forward an idea that may (or may not) improve the percentage of photos available for the presentation at the banquet.

How was it done before digital photography? Were photos taken just for the Bugle and there were no photos at the banquet? If that is the case, if this is a big enough deal, perhaps we should just forget about the photos at the banquet. Personally I prefer to have them there even with issues.

Mike - I'm not trying to suggest that a quarter of the cars in the Driven Class is a poor showing. I just thought it had been growing to outstrip the numbers in 400 point judging. I could be wrong on that. The one question is for the cars that did Driven and another form of judging, which class would they have been in had there been the usual conflict for timing? If they would all have been Driven, and just took opportunity of 400 point / modified judging because they could, then it is probably better than the other way around. Had they not taken advantage and the 400 / modified judging was the priority, then having about 60 cars in the Driven class would have been disappointing (in my mind).

[Pete Phillips]

Part, but not all of the photo problems were mine. I found out about five seconds before the awards presentation began, that I was also expected to run the computer screen projector with the photo presentations! Big surprise. Not only that, it was on someone else's computer and I was unfamiliar with its controls. So, when some of the photos were out of order, it was just too much to try to read off the list of names for the right class, keep things moving, announce the awards, and fish around on the computer for the car photos that were out of order.

Lesson for future meets: The announcer of the awards cannot also run the slide projector at the same time.

If we had had to prepare for an awards banquet on the same day of the judging, after the rain storm delayed the judging for several hours, there is no way we could have been ready in time.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Sherman, Texas

2010 MeatHead Judge

Edited August 9, 2010 by Pete Phillips (see edit history)

[TxBuicks]

This year was the first time I have seen it where the presenter (Pete) had to operate to computer, too. I think it was a surprise to everyone except the photographer, who apparently didn't want to do it, and didn't communicate that to anyone, either.

My final point on this....Everyone loves the photos of the cars at the awards banquet. It can be done, as we have seen from most of the shows. Everyone dwells on the ones that didn't turn out right, but forget the ones that were excellent. There is no official "Meet Photographer" that is hired for every National Meet. But perhaps we can communicate to the local photographers a bit better on the process beforehand so that the results will be better. I will offer any comments based on my experiences if asked.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I sure did not know this until ten minutes before the banquet was to start. The only plug for the computer was in the podium.

It was a cluster*** from that point forward, we thought it was better just to have Pete up there then 2 people with on just operating the computer...

[dkbuick75]

Excuse me. Did I miss something at the National meeting??? When did the BCA vote to become part of the AACA?? While we share space on the AACA forum page, the last I knew this club was still called the BCA !!!! All I'm hearing is blah, blah blah and things should be done this way or that. If you're so damn fired sure your way is the right way -- then step up to run & host the next meet--- or grow the KAHONIES and run for the BoD. I don't give 2 craps how AACA judges their meets-- this is/was a BCA function. If I want AACA judging, I'll go to an AACA meet!!! Bill opened this space to get feedback on what those WHO ATTENDED the National meet in Ames this year thought of Friday's judging, not looking for recomendations on how another club does theirs!!

Something different for judging was tried this year-- Bill is looking for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback & opinion on THIS years judging format--- Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill.

[38Buick 80C]

Don,

I understand your point, but in my opinion Al's point was constructive in some respects, however could have been worded better. I interpreted Al's underlying point that AACA manages to judge and admin a similar quantity of cars in a similar time frame as BCA would for Saturday judging, but does it quickly and efficiently in his opinion. That should be investigated so that efficiencies can be learned and used in the BCA for benefit of the club whether for Saturday or Friday judging. That being said Al did make it sound like AACA was somehow better than the BCA, which he may want to clarify. He may have meant to say exactly that, which many here will disagree with.

I have something like 12 AACA judging credits, there are things I like about their system and things I don't like. Many BCA judges are also AACA judges, many are not. One fact that can not be denied is that the AACA has 60,000 members to our 8000+, so even if they have the same percentage of judges to members by sheer volume they have more judges and more judges certainly makes things go faster. I judge maybe 5-7 cars in an AACA National Meet (of similar overall car count to Ames) but judged something like 15-20 this past meet in Ames. That simply takes longer. So if we investigate AACA we may find that they are doing nothing particularly special other than divide and conquer, however I do not know that for certain.

Fair enough?

As for Friday judging I have no comments that haven't already been made by others.

[Thriller]

I have never been to an AACA meet, but there is something about our judging that bothers me. I consider myself relatively inexperienced as a judge, but I generally enjoy it and, owning a variety of Buicks, I would like to think I have an idea of what is correct.

Whenever I have judged, I have attended the judging school. Pete and Alan have repeatedly said that we want to spend 5-10 minutes per car. I would argue that 5 minutes probably isn't enough time, but many of the judging teams are closer to 20 minutes per car than 10. If it were 10 minutes per car, including initial transfer of points to the captain's sheet, then a 10 car class should be judged in well under 2 hours. If you had closer to the 5-7 that Brian has experienced at AACA meets, judges should be off the show field in just over an hour. If the judging was done by 10:30 or 11:00 a.m., that would certainly give some time relief to the judging administration group, the awards prep group, and those putting together the presentation for the banquet. I feel that the judging captains need to step up to the plate and keep a better handle on the time spent.

Now seeing as our judging teams are often looking at 2-3 times the number of cars that AACA judging teams are, that tells me we don't have enough judging volunteers. In my mind, if I ask to have a car judged, I feel something of an obligation to assist with the process. Think about that...if every owner having a car judged assisted with judging, and teams of 5 judges plus administration would mean all judging teams could be looking at just 5-6 cars. The judges and the owners could get the judging out of the way far sooner and get to the other parts of the meet they enjoy, whether looking at the Buicks, chatting Buick with old or new friends, checking the swap meet, and so on. Heck, the swap meet vendors may be more inclined to stick around for judging day if they got a bit of traffic.

I could go on, but I'd likely get riled up and / or rile someone else up.

[Guest wildcat62]

I've always thought it should be required that if you have your car judged that you provide a judge. I understand some owners are not able to judge, but then should bring along a guest, etc that can assist with judging. That's only fair if you are asking someone to take the time to judge your car.

By the way, Derek. I picked up your grill, but I have to tell ya...it's gonna look strange on the front of any of your cars...:eek:

[jscheib]

Derek,

This posting has slipped from the original request about FRiday judging, but I think you have "honed in" on the problem. the time spent on the car is one thing, but time on the paperwork is another problem, which leads to more delay. Some wet papers in Ames was also a bit of a delay.

ON THE JUDGING SHEETS, WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE GET SOME CLEAN COPIES SO WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PUT TOTALS IN THE COPIED "SHADED AREAS" WHICH MAKES TABULATIONS EVEN MORE OF A PROBLEM. SOMEWHERE THERE MUST BE AN ORIGINAL ON A COMPUTER SO WE ARE NOT MAKING COPIES OF COPIES THAT ARE SHADED, AND HARD TO MARK IN PENCIL.

That's the end of my speech on this, except I will do my best to find a source of the forms before Danvers.

John

[Thriller]

John - agreed. However, the original intent regarding Friday judging was, as I understand it, at least in part to give breathing room on the timing of things. If there are some alternatives to provide the extra time required to improve the admin / banquet / award prep process, we should examine them. I believe I stated it in my original response that the down side to it was to sort of shorten the meet in the sense that those having cars judged lost a day of potential prep time for their cars. If we could improve our efficiency while maintaining Saturday judging, I think I would prefer that, but I could work with either day.

The judging manual, including the forms, is a PDF on the BCA site under Documents - http://www.buickclub.org/BCA%20JUDGING%20MANUAL/BCAjudgingrev2.pdf

[dkbuick75]

Brian,

I may of misinterpretted Al's response as a bit of BCA bashing. I am sorry, but when I hear, read, feel someone is bashing BCA it makes my blood boil and I get on the defensive and speak my piece. I mean if your bashing the club, then why would you really want to belong to something you feel so negatively about. Just my ways. I speak my piece and tell it like I see it. Sometimes my bluntness comes off wrong in my wording

Al,

I am sorry if I did indeed misinterpret your intentions and suggestion. I am not hear trying to ruffle feathers or **** people off. I am a straight shooter and tell it like I see or feel it at the time. I do not sugarcoat things. That is the one thing people who know me will tell you. I am honest in my beliefs and statements. Sometimes brutally honest. I guess that has to do alot with my job and dealing with public. What some people will try to pull and lie about, if they think they're going to get away with it. In that regard I will tell it as I see it and majority of times it is not what they want to hear. As I stated above to Brian, if I sense someone is bashing the BCA I go on the defensive.

[38Buick 80C]

Don I completely understand I don't want the BCA bashed either.

[bhclark]

I have never had a car 400 point judged....I'm always in the Driven class.

I did like the Friday judging this year which gave people the option of joining both.

Kudos to all of those involved in judging and putting the awards banquet together.

[NTX5467]

By observation, each club/group has their own culture and the judging can tend to reflect that culture/orientation. For example, Olds Club of America gives points for "Spirit Items" displayed with the car. Other judgings want "gas, oil, water" containers (when I used a can of motor oil, a Phillips66 Race Fuel jug, and an antifreeze gallon in one show, it didn't seem to help) by the car for extra points.

End result, the BCA, AACA, OCA, and others will most probably have a judging system which reflects the culture and orientation of the particular group. Be that as it may.

In getting the judging/classification system for one of the other clubs I'm in upgraded, I looked at what other similar car clubs and organizations did with their shows, even talking to judges and participants when possible. I used that to configure our judging sheet. Another club "borrowed" it and made a few changes, which I liked, so I incorporated them in our sheet, then revisited it several times until it worked for us AND worked the way I wanted it to. "Continuous Improvement" might be a forgotten concept, but it still works--NOT everything others do will work in ALL environments, so adopting something that has not first been "simulated" is a not-very-good move, for the particular entity.

I concur that the AACA (and others) might handle some things differently than we do in the BCA, so the question should be "Can the BCA do this too, or might it not really be applicable to the BCA's orientation/needs, or might it be modified to work better for the BCA's uses?" It's always good to see what others are doing, but don't expect how they do it to work for what YOU want it to do in YOUR environment.

Considering the "high level" of judging documentation and data in the BCA, everything has to be completely accurate--period. This can make the process seem a little "plodding", but sometimes it has to be that way . . . lest corrections have to be made later. Be that as it may.

Meet Photography? At our 1996 Plano, TX meet, the film was put into slides and then shown via a large carosel slide projector borrowed from the GM Dallas Zone Office (with a zone rep to run it). For the 2004 meet, Mr. Stoneberg's group took film pictures and then found (well before the meet) a local shop that would transfer it to a CD, which they said they'd stay open long enough to get it done that Saturday afternoon. In BOTH cases, there was very little "wiggle room" with time. Luckily, things worked well both times! Then, with the pictures loaded on the CD (in 2004), Scott Aurandt (and possibly a few other volunteers), armed with the judging award results, correlated the judging results to pictures, in order. With advances in digital photography and software, it might be possible to build a spreadsheet and link that data to the respective pictures?

The dynanmics of the meet might not be perfect, but if we keep whittlin' away at the sub-optimal areas while reinforcing the nearly/almost-optimal areas, progress should be made. That could also include the day upon which the 400 Point System judging takes place and if participants can be 400 Point and Driven Class judged.

Time spent judging each vehicle? As I understand it, "the standard" is "End of the Assembly Line" . . . no more, no less. Over-restoration is not rewarded with fewer deducts, either. The reason that "unmolested" and "verified original" vehicles are so treasured is that THEY illustrate the "assembly line standard" which should be the stated BCA 400 Point System judging standard. Unfortunately, many restorers put things back "better than stock", so THAT seems to become "the standard", when it's "over-restored"--for many in the hobby AND the general public. Up until about the 1990s, new vehicles were not perfect, but some were more than others, still, not completely perfect. Adhesive showing out from under deck lid weatherstrips, for example, or sealer around windshield/back glasses, or other things not completely aligned on the body, etc. Some of these assembly indiscretions were "normal", but are also something that might be deducted for under the 400 Point System judging.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Bill Stoneberg]

Willis, what you did not see was the work that went into the presentation in Plano. From the record keeping Scottie and others kept as far as cars and colors and models, to every night after getting the file back cooralating the pictures to the owners. Resizing rhe pictures before hand so they would fit in the powerpoint presentation. Then sitting in the judging room while you assembeled the awards and I put the presentation together. If it would not been for before hand work that was done by Scottie and others, it would not have been done.

I still have the pictures on a computer and Pete has the original film copies.

Saturday judging, you may have 4 - 5 hours to get it together with pictures. If you are not organized, you will fail.

Digital will save some time but organization is the key. Without it all the time in theworld wont help.

[bhclark]

I love where your head is at NXT.

[Guest wildcat465]

Hi Bill,

I liked the Friday judging. I had fun at the Saturday Car Show. You and Rick and the Hawkeye Chapter did a hell of a job.

Thank you all.

I am not commenting on the rest of this stuff. Someone can start a new thread, then I'll let you have it.

[NTX5467]

Bill, you FURTHER emphasize the many issues and activities which are invisible to normal meet attendees and participants--the "behind-the-scenes" activities to support the delivery of the end product at the awards banquet. It IS a very highly-intensive situation, to get loose ends nailed down and completed, get back to the room and ready for "showtime", and then be back in time to make it all happen. As stated, with Saturday judging, there is only a small window of time for things to happen and there is NOT any room for error--even IF some of the judging and related administrative activities might be expedited.

I also know that you and your "group" did an excellent job of making the pictures happen. From finding the film lab that would process the film for transfer to the CD, getting everything handled (from record-keeping to compensating for sun angles as the day progressed), plus the other things you mentioned. Y'all did an outstanding job--period!

From a "been there, done that . . . TWICE" orientation, the dynamics of Friday judging are much nicer than trying to "cram" it all into a maximum of seven total hours, but in sequence, on Saturday. First the judging is completed, numbers tallied and reported, then judging admin takes over, with a report of award results then becoming available as the processing progresses. Unless, as Bill mentioned, you start early to get things pre-done in the meet's earlier days, there's no real way to get it all done, from scratch, in the alloted time of Saturday judging . . . IF you wait until Saturday to start.

Take care,

NTX5467

Edited August 15, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Bill Stoneberg]

there's no real way to get it all done, from scratch, in the alloted time of Saturday judging . . . IF you wait until Saturday to start.

And this has been proven, time and time again.