For the BOD and anybody else interested

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

I spend all day driving in circles in a dump truck with no radio. It gives you a lot of time to think. It also hurts your back and makes you dizzy but thats a thread for another time.

A lot has been made lately of decreasing membership and increasing dues. Ways to do one without doing the other or trying to do both. Ideas have been floated concerning other cars that while they may not technically be Buicks they are Buick related.Decreasing the size or quality of the Bugle, etc etc.....

There are those of us who feel the dues increase is a bad idea and that it will add to the problem that is causing the dues increase in the first place. Declining membership. There are those out there who feel that the benefits they have gained from the BCA are worth whatever the cost may be. What if both sides are right ? What if we could find a way to compromise? I was recently driving in circles, thinking about bills when this idea hit me. I dont know if its feasible or not thats why Im looking for responses from people who would know.

I recently switched cable providers under an "introductory offer". I get my cable at a reduced rate for a year or so , mainly to get me hooked and then after that year is over and the hook has been set I pay a regular cable rate for the following year.

Whats the possibilites of the BCA doing the same . Everybody ( including myself) say its the poeple more than the cars. The friendships, the chapters, the going to regionals and nationals to renew old friendships and make new ones. That the people and services the club offers is what makes the club worth the dues paid . But if you cant get someone to join( especially if they feel that the cost may be prohibitive) .... they will never know what we do.

Why couldnt we offer and introductory rate on 1st year dues if the person agrees to at least a two year membership. This gets them in , gets them hooked and lets them find out that "the club is worth whatever the dues may be " to paraphrase several of the responses in the other threads. And if we do this maybe we can also spend a little of the declining account to agressively advertise our "introductory rate " in magazines such as Old Car Trader and Hemmings. Let other Buick owners know we are out there and that we are looking for them to join

Yes our club finances may take a hit ... but if I understand it correctly theyre taking a hit now anyway. Would you rather just take the hit or take the hit in an attempt to reverse the declining membership ? Seems like a no-brainer to me but I dont know the fine details and Im sure there are things that would have to be worked out by the BOD . Thats why Im floating this idea and looking for responses from both the BOD and the membership in general.

Is it a good idea?

Is it a bad idea ?

Why ?

Dan

[jscheib]

Well Dan, I will take the bait and comment.

Not everyone will take the bait for an "introductory" offer. Like many, using the cable provider example, I prefer to look at what each provider (you have usually one cable company, a similar service by a telephone company and several satillite companies) can provide by way of channel availability and the service and reliability they promise. You can check that by talking to their current customers just as you would many other services.

I am not sure what this proves except that I am not so an introductory offer would draw new members. After all at lot of cable services and cell phone pproviders will lower the price for long time customers if you threaten to move to another plan.

Thats my opinion.

John

[NTX5467]

If the issue of the declining membership is really $$$$$, then getting "new members" online for two years with the first year being at a reduced rate, possibly two years for the cost of 1.5 years, that would mean more initial outlay for the new members. Getting them to pay more up front might be defeating the purpose of making the BCA more affordable for them, although they would be getting the longer membership term.

Now, from the "informed shopper department", what kind of rates are you going to get for the time "after" the cable provider's introductory offer expires? Just curious. What kind of "early out" fees might there be if you end the service too soon or don't renew for the second year?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Thriller]

Dan - I don't know the numbers well enough to really comment, but I wanted to commend you for thinking and coming up with a reasonable idea and sharing it.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Dan,

A problem with that plan is we may loose money during the introductory period depending on what we charge. Can we make it up ? Thats the question isn't it. We cant reduce the price like cable companies without getting into trouble. We have a fixed cost for every member whether you join for 1 year or 3 years. Producing the Bugle and mailing it to you costs money.

If you charge only 1/2 price to join, how long will it take to recoup your loss ?

I like the idea though and will look closely at it and look at the numbers involved.

Any other ideas are welcome.....

[Barney Eaton]

Technically, the BCA already does what you suggested.

Look at the rate structure...... one year $50, two years $95, three years $130.

So if they sign up for two years it could be said that the first year is reduced to $45

Or if the sign up for three years the first year is $30...... The three year price is pretty good, first if you want to think that way, you get the first year for $30 and you are locked in for the next two at $50, should future BOD find it necessary to make changes.

On top of that, you don't need to be a new member to get the "discount" any BCA member can save $20 over three years by sending in a check for $130. (average $43.33 per year) so why don't all smart thinking Buick owners go for the three year deal? Beats me, I do.

There are some actual savings, mainly the amount of time the BCA office spends on sending out renewals, updating records, etc.

If we could totally eliminate the BCA office (which we can't because the job is too big for someone to do for free) the annual cost per member is $6.50 which is not the actual number that would be saved because that take into account everything at the office, ie equipment maintenance, telephones, printing, postage, office supplies..... all of which even a volunteer BCA office would charge back to the BCA.

For some reason, some members think the BOD just looks at the bottom line and says "we better raise dues". I can assure you that lots of thought went into the decision over a year.

There were lots of emails between the Board and the BCA budget/actual expenses are published and we also pay an accountant in Indianapolis to review and report on the BCA expenses.

One last comment. It would take a little research, like looking at their bios when they ran for the board, but we have 9 Board members. At least four have their own successful business. Several of the other are in management where they work, and the rest are no dummies. We have a good cross section of Board members that look out for OUR club.

[LINC400]

I have to say that offering a reduced price first year sounds like an excellent idea. I have no idea what would be involved financially for the club, but look at it this way.

I currently do not belong to the Continental Owners Club. They have approached me several times about joining after seeing my car at an event. I belong to a couple other clubs already, am busy all summer long with their and other car events, and see no need to pay another $50 or whatever to belong to yet another club. Plus a couple of times they have invited us to join them for a pay on your own dinner at a restaurant. From what I have seen, they are cranky old men snobbish to anyone not in the club, and rude to waiters. This does not provide any incentive for me to join. I'm sure they have other events and not all members are cranky old snobs and rude to waiters, but I do not feel like paying $50 to find out. Now if they offered a trial first year $25 membership, I would say, well, only $25, I can try it. If I liked it I would renew for $50 or look at long term deals. However, I think making them guarantee a second year would not work. That would defeat the purpose of the trial membership. I would not want to be stuck in a club for 2 years when I'm not sure I even want to be there the first year.

It might mean more paperwork, but if a half price first year doesn't work financially, how about a 6 month trial membership for $25?

[Guest BJM]

I think the most important aspect would be FREE chapter membership. Most chapters ask for $10 or $15 dues fees.

If we offered a reduced National membership with a free chapter membership (for the 1st year) then the new member would see the fun and activities of the chapter, which is really where it's important.

The new member goes to a spring chapter barbeque, meets old car lovers like himself, gets a chapter newsletter, makes friends who might help him/her out then at the end of the year they would have a better idea of the BCA experience and the retention rate should be higher then just a National membership.

When I was membership director of the local Walter P Chrysler club (Iowa) we had an annual fundraiser of hosting a festival car show and it funded all of our activities for the year with $$$ to spare, so we offered anybody new to the WPC Club in Iowa a free 1st year membership. It did not cost us anything, in fact we had to find a way to spend that money due to non profit club guidelines.

Edited February 27, 2010 by BJM (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Bryan...... several BCA Chapters do offer free Chapter membership and this was talked about at the Colorado Springs general membership meeting. The Board encouraged Chapters to give the first year Free to NEW BCA members. However we cannot force the Chapter to

take our advice.

[Guest my3buicks]

Maybe Big Daddy BCA should take it's own advise and offer a new John a little sugar - you can't expect the chapters to hook for the Pimp Daddy if the Pimp Daddy does not get proactive in the game.

Many good idea's are presented on this forum, most are ridiculed and put down, do any ever make it back to the BOD or is it politics and games as usual?

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

I think the most important aspect would be FREE chapter membership. Most chapters ask for $10 or $15 dues fees.

If we offered a reduced National membership with a free chapter membership (for the 1st year) then the new member would see the fun and activities of the chapter, which is really where it's important.

The new member goes to a spring chapter barbeque, meets old car lovers like himself, gets a chapter newsletter, makes friends who might help him/her out then at the end of the year they would have a better idea of the BCA experience and the retention rate should be higher then just a National membership.

When I was membership director of the local Walter P Chrysler club (Iowa) we had an annual fundraiser of hosting a festival car show and it funded all of our activities for the year with $$$ to spare, so we offered anybody new to the WPC Club in Iowa a free 1st year membership. It did not cost us anything, in fact we had to find a way to spend that money due to non profit club guidelines.

Thats interesting..... a free membership for the first year, however that would have to be handled correctly. I think if that were the case you would have to sign up for at least 2 years.

As far as the free mebership in the chapter goes , it sounds like a good idea but it seems it would be a logistics nightmare. The BOD (who would ultimately approve any plan) would have to confer with the treasurer and director of each chapter beforehand to make sure they were onboard with free chapter membership before it could be offered at a national level. Then there is the problem of small chapters or start up chapters that just might not be able to afford that. If you have one chapter that cant do it do you just exclude that chapter or does it sink the whole program ? I think the program would be better done at a national level. At the national level even if we are in financial distress we at least have the cushion of having something already in the bank.

Linc I dont think the 6 month idea would work. Not that its a bad idea but just not long enough. In the perfect world of my mind where this idea was cooked up , the plan was to get someone in the door for at least a year , possibly 2 and let them get the bugle sent to their door every month for a year , let the new member see whats planned for THEIR upcoming year as far as regional , national and local events pertaining to the kind of cars that they the member have an interest in, whether they own one or not.

I guess the idea I have could be given the following example : Theres a guy who lives in lets say Toronto Ohio and he owns a 75 Estate Wagon. He loves it , its a car that has been passed through the family and he has great memories of family trips etc in this car. He doesnt think its special to anyone but him. He takes it to weekly cruises in Boardman Ohio and gets the occasional nice comment but for the most part he gets ignored by people walking past his car to look at a RoadRunner. He sees an ad in Hemmings for a Buck club he didnt even know existed and they are offering a first time membership discount. Hell, he thinks, at this price it might be worth it for me to join if not for any other reason than to find parts for my baby. So he joins. He starts getting the Bugle, finds parts vendors like Wheatbelt advertising in there and realizes that there ARE people who actually stock parts for his Estate Wagon and there are actually people who would be as much interested in his wagon as they would be interested in a RoadRunner. Maybe even MORE interested in his wagon than the RoadRunner. Now while paging through the Bugle he sees an ad for the Great Lakes Regional coming up in August in Colombus. Its practically in his back yard. He registers , he goes. Now he is surrounded by people who appreciate his car theyre looking in it , under it , pointing things out to each other about it. In fact he doesnt even have the only Estate Wagon there. Hes entered in a class where hes not competing against a RoadRunner but against cars that are similar to his .... various styles of full sized Buick coupes sedans wagons and convertibles. And all the people he is being judged against are friendly !!!!!!! In fact theres this one guy from Pittsburgh,he thinks, with this Blue Electra who keeps coming up and saying that HE was the reason this guy joined the Buick club. Strange , but if thats what the guy wants to believe... let him . There are parts vendors there who actually have PARTS THAT FIT HIS CAR. Hes sure glad he saw that ad in Hemmings and even though it was half price this year it seems like it would be worth the full price next year.

Ladies and Gentleman you now have your next dedicated BCA member.

Thats what Im hoping the discount idea will create .

Dan

[NTX5467]

Perhaps we might need to re-orient some things a little. The desire is to motivate current Buick owners and enthusiasts to join the BCA, which they might not have known even existed . . . or currently have no knowledge of it. Yet, they have been a loyal Buick owner and customer for years, but with what many BCA members (and others) might classify as "a used car". Sometimes, we can put toooo much emphasis on whether or not the vehicle is "collectible" rather than something we just like (for whatever reason). There are LOTS of Buicks on the road today whose intrinsic value is far greater than any price book might indicate, but because they are not a muscle car or a 2-dr hardtop or convertible, they are overlooked by many and, resultantly, walked past to see other cars at a cruise.

Station wagons can fit into the "used car" slot, too, although they are some of the rarest body styles on the road, due to lower numbers produced to start with and the fact that many were used for what they were designed to and then discarded or "used up". This can be where the national station wagon clubs enter the picture, in this case.

Although a much-mentioned word has been "free", with "reduced rate" not being far behind in this discussion, perhaps those words are not nearly as strong of an incentive for a potential member to join and contribute to the BCA and/or a local chapter? In one sense, "Free" means something "has no value", so it's worth "nothing". What we're trying to do is change that definition to "very high value--initially and later on" . . . and THAT's where some discussions with potential members can fall apart, by observation.

It seems that trying to explain to a potential new member for the BCA, who probably FIRST might make contact with a local chapter member at a car event, WHY they can't just join the local chapter as they can any other LOCAL car club and be done with it. Many have NOT considered the greater network available to them via the BCA (Vendors? They can find them in Hemmings, which many have heard about and is much more readily available than in prior decades.). The national network of people who usually have much more intimate knowledge of their particular Buick . . . much more than they can find locally from people more used to dealing with Chevies, for example, SHOULD be something that might interest them--which, by itself can be worth more than the increased BCA membership dues in itself.

So, if WE are supposed to be focusing on the value of the BCA to current non-members and our existing members, there should be some costs involved somewhere for the new members. The costs should relate to the VALUE of the BCA membership and access to "the network" . . . a network not available via Hemmings or any other car hobby publication.

As for the "free chapter membership" . . . that should have VALUE, too. So, forget "free" and think "Complimentary" and also "We have our meetings at . . . . . Our meetings are 'open' and 'visitors are welcome'--NOT a 'members only' situation by any means, but many visitors also end up joining later on." So . . . get them to come to a chapter meeting FIRST rather than trying to do the whole "Join the BCA" speech on a cruise night event parking lot, where they have other things to think about or look at. In many cases, that sales pitch can be "too much information" at that time, much of which might not "take" that first time. If you might want to get an email or postal address to send them "some literature", that would be good, also.

I realize that $$$$ are important in these current times, but as with any other consumer purchase, if the value is there (AND well-indicated and "sold") then it can make the $$$$ expenditure a little more justified and perceived as long-term beneficial.

As an aside . . . in about 2004, Chevrolet did some product comparisons to some import models, in this case it was the then-new Impala and the Toyota Camry. Both cars were in the same "full size" product demographic, but the Toyota had a higher MSRP. Still, when the products were compared, the Impala bested the Camry on things I'd consider important . . . interior size and comfort, trunk size, fuel economy and track handling, yet more people bought the Camry . . . a smaller vehicle that cost several hundred dollars MORE to purchase with more required recommended maintenance and FEWER dealerships to consider purchasing one from or to get it serviced. Still, people put "more value" into paying more money for less car that would cost more for general upkeep and gladly did it! MORE out of pocket expenses over the length of their lease or finance deal. Lease residuals were higher, too, for the Toyota as it was "more desired" by used vehicle customers, which could help partially justify the higher purchase price. Yet used import vehicle purchasers were admonished to "check the repair records to see what's been done and when" (good advice for any used vehicle purchase, but seemingly much more critical for import brands). So, people gladly would pay more to get less, but a "less" with perceived higher quality and more value down the road, yet greater expenses for upkeep . . . in theory. Some might not agree with my analogy, but it's one that I've seen and experienced after driving both vehicles.

I also am aware than many car enthusiasts have interests in vehicles other than Buicks, so joining the BCA and a local chapter might be "outside of the current budget", no matter what. So, as in one of my business orientations . . . "If you can't sell them something, MAKE A FRIEND". People will usually do business with their friends, if possible, so being friendly and helpful, exchanging phone numbers/contact information, offering other information which you might be able to supply can help keep you in THEIR loop of knowledgeable individuals in the area of "cars". If they might not currently have a Buick, but like Buicks, it's highly possible that your contact and good relations with them might motivate them to later purchase a Buick . . . which means THEY will then seek out YOU for help and information . . . which also can mean justification to THEM to join the BCA and the local chapter. NOW, everybody has common ground upon which to build from. Unfortunately, this scenario does not fit the short-term situation that many seem to favor, but it can be better in the longer range of things.

At this stage in the game, just as with new car dealerships and their related manufacturers (especially USA-brands!), "customer retention" is highly important as the revolving door of "lose some, get new ones in" has pretty much stopped. This is also where the "value message" comes in, too. The new members are not going to join just because WE want them to, so their membership in the BCA and a local chapter has to "have VALUE" to them. I believe most of us in here know what that VALUE includes, but getting that across to potential members can be problematic (which is why the "detailed sell" needs to not be initiated on the parking lot at a car event, typically, but in a more relaxed environment).

Of course, the potential member's going to inquire as to if their car has been covered in the magazine, as if that can be a big selling point to them. Perhaps this is where a list of articles in more recent back issues might come in handy, so they might contact the correct operatives to purchase such a copy of THE BUGLE, if available.

Also one of my business orientations is to not "slam the door in their face" if they might not want to join the BCA or chapter, even after much discussion that can be beneficial to them. If they might not be a good "fit" for the BCA chapter or BCA itself, for whatever reason (although with the different divisions now in the BCA, those reasons have been decreased!), then encourage them to seek out other local car groups which might be more to their liking . . . KEEP them involved with their Buick, if possible, and take pains to NOT alienate them just because they might like another club better. If they might come to your chapter later, openly welcome them and let them tell about their car at the meeting, even if some might not care for the particular car or what the owner has done to/with it. Do what you can to help them with their car project if they might need information of where to get some repairs/upgrades done. You might not like their car, but THEY have the SAME NEEDS as any other vehicle enthusiast does as to getting things done by reliable repair shops and such--think "common ground". Who knows . . . there can be some positive information flow between the generations that can be fun and beneficial for all!

So, rather than try to motivate new members to join the BCA with reduced membership rates, sell VALUE (even at the more recent rate increases) rather than $$$$. At the chapter level, remember "meetings open to visitors" and "complimentary membership for 6 months with a new BCA membership" rather than "free". "Free" has value when it's attached to something else (buy one, get one free, for example) but typically has no value when it's free-standing by itself. From my own research a few years ago, before the rates went to the prior increase, the BCA had greater value to the members (magazine and other amenities) than other national marque clubs which had equivalent national dues amounts.

If you're going to sell VALUE, you have to be confident in the product you're trying to sell, rather than "Wellll . . . this is a little expensive and probably more than you might want to pay . . . and then you have to join the national club to be a member of the local chapter, which is more money . . . "

There are other national car clubs that have great products and offer good value via nice monthly magazines and such, even pretty nice websites, and this is what you're trying to sell against, if it might come down to "competition". And they offer a pretty decent value in the mix, too. But the TOTAL PACKAGE of the BCA and its larger number of local chapters make it different with a greater national unified presence . . . and worth the price of admission.

Regards,

NTX5467

Edited February 28, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[LINC400]

The most effective word in advertising is "FREE", the second most effective word "SALE". Obviously you are not familiar with this. Everyone likes to think they are so brilliant, and are not suckered in by these words. But they most definitely work. Think day after Thanksgiving sales. Half off sales on car magazine subscriptions. Sales at auto parts stores. Otherwise these words wouldn't be used. The wife goes and buys clothes and household junk that isn't needed on sale. The husband buys tools and parts because he got a good deal. Then they yell at each other. Why? Because "sale" works. Always has. Always will.

[Only Buicks]

Some good ideas about attracting new members. It seems to me that it is equally important to get recurring costs under control (if possible) as these will continue to increase. Some of the members may opt to receive the Bugle via email, which I would think could certainly help reduce costs. I know a very large percentage of our chapter members opt to receive our monthly newsletter via email. I would be in for this as long as I could get a hard copy now and then if I wanted to order one. This may also be an opportunity to have a lower yearly dues rate. Does anyone know what one copy of the Bugle costs to get into a members hand?

Edited March 2, 2010 by 38Buick (see edit history)

[Thriller]

Glenn - one thing to note is that the Bugle has certain fixed costs associated with it. Typically, the editing and layout costs would be fixed, which would have to be covered by online only members, and then there are the printing / packaging / mailing costs.

I can't speak to what these work out to on a per member / per Bugle basis though. As this deals directly with club finances, personally, I would prefer it to be discussed among members only, not necessarily in the forums, which are open to the public.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Glenn,

We are having a BOD meeting in March where we will be discussing our budget & expense numbers. I am also writing an article where I will share the numbers with members.

We (the BOD) are watching expenses very carefully, we have forgone the Spring Meeting, instead meeting by Teleconference to save the club money. Also, individual BOD members are not accepting the stipend they receive for going to the BOD meeting at the National Meet.

If you have more questions, I will be glad to discuss via phone or email. My number / email address is in every Bugle and I am always glad to talk about Buick's and / or the BCA.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

LINC400, I am certainly aware of "free" and "sale", but "free" and "sale" usually are used to clear out old stock so the new stuff can come in and have a place to be placed for customers to purchase. Some will take anything that is "free", even if they might not need it OR have any intentions of ever using the item being given away. How many "free" car show flyers/entry forms might you see littering the grounds of a swap meet, for example? By observation, many "free" items end up in the trash can, placed there either by the person who accepted them or the entity trying to get rid of them . . . from what I've seen over the years.

Email "Bugles" can be problematic, for several reasons. Basic production/layout costs will be the same whether for print or electronic media, I suspect. Printing and other costs are dependent upon how many are printed, possibly with similar volume issues for the mailing service too.

If everybody had that fancy satellite internet that had super-fast picture downloads, electronic delivery of the magazine might be pretty feasible, but most don't have that service. Also, we love to see those high-resolution pictures that show minute details in the pictures in the magazine, but the larger the picture files are the more time it takes for the download of that ONE picture. How many pictures might we want to see in a magazine devoted to older vehicles? Even if a low-resolution thumbnail was used to look at before the full picture file might be downloaded, the download time of the main picture could still be an issue. If the car was a lighter color, it'd download faster than a dark-colored car or a car with a darker background--these are my experiences on normal pictures.

If you want to see how such a graphic-intensive .pdf format might work for you, you can download or access an accessory/performance parts catalog (Edelbrock has their current catalog in segments for faster downloads, National Parts Depot, Mr. Gasket, Holley, etc.). First thing that will happen is the Adobe reader program will take some time to open and load, then the downloaded information can be displayed. Now, once it's downloaded, scroll between the various pages, click on the images to look at larger versions (check the detail you might see), then unclick to go back to the catalog pages. Play with it to see how it works on your computer, with your graphics card, with your processor, with your monitor/display. Check the download speed before you can move between the pages without "blanks". Then print off a page to see how that works, too, even a picture for good measure. Remember, too, the illustrations you might see are of the lower resolution variety, which can become very obvious should you use a photo editing program to enlarge them.

As for a "reduced price", I recently got an email for electronic magazine subscriptions. The electronic subscriptions were less expensive than the most multi-year print subscriptions I've ever seen, usually significantly under $10.00/year for 12 issues. Granted, their production costs were underwritten by several hundred thousands of normal subscriptions, but can we produce "The Bugle" and sell electronic magazine subscriptions for even $20.00/year and make money? Or would the decreased $$$$ profits per electronic magazine membership (which cost less) be greater than current profits? Would electronic magazine membership dues of (possible) $20.00/year result in a doubling of membership numbers as the dues are less expensive?

The other possibility would be to receive the monthly magazine on DVD rather than print, which has not been mentioned in this discussion, but was mentioned in earlier discussions. Personally, I want to get something in my hand each month rather than just a notification email, even if it's a DVD rather than a print magazine. Still, there is no doubt that a print magazine of the excellence which we now have will have less perceived significance if it's only available on DVD. Great color pictures, even black and white pictures? Just depends on the quality of your printer and the type of paper you put in it . . . or the resolution of your computer monitor/display.

Due to the volume issues related to printing/mailing costs, there can be a high probability that no money would be saved (OR more profits generated) with a mixed-media magazine distribution, whether electronic delivery/print or DVD/print. Determining the electronic/(other) split can be problematic, too, just as predicting how many Gold awards will need to be assembled for a particular BCA National Meet.

One advantage to the electronic/DVD versions would be that more advertising could be packed into the monthly magazine without having to worry about a particular page limit allocation, although space could still be an issue to a lesser extent in the electronic file or file size on the DVD. How could we gauge advertising rates/advertiser benefits from that, compared to the print versions?

What about the member who signed up for electronic delivery and can't receive the email due to existing emails in their email box not leaving sufficient room to receive the electronic magazine. If the magazine's file is large enough (due to lots of pictures at higher resolution, or whatever), although there might be room for plenty of individual emails, ONE magazine file might max it out, preventing other desired emails from being delivered. How would we deal with bounced emails? Refund/extend memberships to compensate? If the email contained only a link to get the magazine file, what would prevent un-registered individuals from using the link? Several new questions to be answered or dealt with, it seems.

Unfortunately, unless or until some definitive answers to the alternative delivery costs can be obtained, the default mode probably will continue to be "print version."

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited March 3, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[LINC400]

"Free" and "sale" are not always used to clear out old junk. They are used to get people in the store, or club as the case may be. Free junk mail is not a worthwhile comparison. How many cell phone or cable/satellite commericals do you see every day? Those are not using "free" and "sale" to clear out old junk. They are luring people into signing up for their service. No different than getting people to sign up for the club.

Also one of the car clubs I belong to has been doing an email newsletter for about a year and half now. None of the problems you describe above are going on. I do not have a state of the art computer or internet connection. It does not take forever to download, and there are lots of pictures. If you must have a paper copy in your hands, you simply print it. We also still offer the newsletter by mail for those that do not have an internet connection. I think about 95% of us receive it by email. I understand it is saving a ton of money in printing and postage. The newsletter editor likes it better as well. No waiting for the printer, no typos, errors can be fixed immediately, and last minute changes are no problem. Unlike with a printed newsletter.

Edited March 3, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

I like the thought of mailing a DVD. Would consider it even though I like getting the magazine in the mail. For those that might subscribe to the DVD a December recap of the years magazines with all issues on the Dec DVD. That would allow for the ability to search the years publications for a particular car, vendor, repair, etc.

[Guest WEB 38]

Has anyone thought of putting the Bugle out for bids to other printers? In this economy there are a lot of hungry printers out there. The one we are using now Modern printing is a very good sheet fed printer, But if we go to web printing I am sure money can be saved, How do I know I am a retired printer (42 YEARS) Bill Belk WEB 38

[NTX5467]

WEB 38, EACH time the magazine has been put out for bid (which is pretty often, over the past 10 years or so), the price decreases. When Pete and others found the current printer and related operatives, the price decreased significantly from the prior printer and operatives. Enough so, as I recall, that more and better pages in the magazine resulted for LESS cost, plus a plastic mailing bag to boot--it was a really good deal, in total.

I suspect that if you know of a printer and operatives that would like to make a bid, the BOD and Pete would be interested or could provide you with the bid specs they used last time.

------------

LINC400, obviously we have had different experiences with respect to "FREE" and "Sale". Certainly, those words can build traffic into a business establishment, but from the business owner's perspective, it is a way to make room for new merchandise which will be arriving in the near future--even if they have to sell for less profit to make that happen--"cash flow" is one thing, "profits" are another. Personally, that's NOT my business model, after being in car clubs where we ordered meet t-shirts in a volume level which meant we got "2 dozen more for a very little more money", using the extras to decrease the average unit cost . . . and then had to try to peddle those extra t-shirts for cost in order to get rid of them. We were NOT trying to make a bundle on each one! More like cost+25%, and we DID shop to get the best price we could to start with. Eventually, they became "free" door prizes at our meetings. From then on, we ordered enough to just sell out so that we didn't have to pervert our profits just to get rid of them OR haul them to every meeting/event our club had to get rid of them (think "Motivate members to purchase them for less than they paid for the ones they bought at the meet"), which worked much better.

When I was doing the ProShop for our dealership, the die cast NASCAR collectible cars vendor had a "Buy 5 and get one free" or a "free shipping" deal. From our sales level, I knew that we could sell 4 in a reasonable period of time, the 5th one would take a little longer, but that 6th one would be a dust magnet. So, we ordered only 4 each time and kept the stock rotated that way. NO need to have "free" stuff that you lost money on OR kept the inventory money tied-up too long. These are things I learned from experience . . . what might seem like a great deal isn't a great deal if you can't make it work for you in your market area. To me, this was responsible "inventory management".

As for the Internet issues I mentioned, they are from my own experiences too. My webtv terminal (about a 90mhz processor) will download some pictures well and quickly, but others take a good bit longer due to file size and "blackness" amounts. Same with my PIII 450mhz PC, but not quite as slow. I'm glad that your Internet experiences have worked well for you, but not everybody will have the same experiences due to their particular locations in the USA or the world or even the time of day. Many of the issues I mentioned are from the "production/sender" side of things, plus the "receiver" side of things, too. As a "receiver", you would not know about bounced emails, closed email accounts or Internet provider changes (with no change of address notifications), non-responding servers, or similar, as they'd be invisible to the normal receiver who kept their email boxes cleaned out and well-maintained or had an email provider with larger storage capabilities for each email account, but not every email box owner will keep things that nicely, which results in many of the items I mentioned happening.

Be that as it may . . .

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited March 4, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest WEB 38]

NTX5467 Are you aware of the PONTIC OAKLAND CLUB INTERNATIONAL? They do the same as the

Edited March 4, 2010 by WEB 38 (see edit history)

[Guest WEB 38]

NTX5467 are you aware od the Pontic Oakland Club International They are the same as BOC Shows events chapters and monthly magazine (Smoke signals) and the dues are $35.00 yearly What is the BOA Doing different? I Am the Hooiser chapter prez. and have been for the last 10 years aqnd yes I am a member of BOA and the central IN. Chapter of Buick.Iwill send you a copy of Smoke Signals if you want and you can contact the POCI OFFICERS. and ask them what they are doing right. BILL BELK WEB 38

[Guest my3buicks]

Having seen the Smoke Signals (unless it has really changed recently) I do not consider it even in the same ballpark as the Bugle in quality, content, etc. It's a decent mag though.

[Guest WEB 38]

Yes Smoke Signals Was much improved and much more color added about two years ago as a retired printer I Would agree that the Bugle is a little better quality, But not at $15.00 per year. Arent we trying to keep the cost down. Remember if your circurlation keeps going down the cost per book will keep increasing and your dues along with it. BILL BELK WEB 38

[JohnD1956]

There are a lot of assumptions in the various comments here, and I can't type fast enough to address them all while avoiding getting timed out. But I just want to say I think Dan's original idea is to let the potential member to pay the reduced dues the first year with the understanding they are making a 2 year committment and will pay the full dues the 2nd year.

Dan, it's a good idea. But if people do not like the club and fail to pay the 2nd year, then what would be the follow up? Collection would be difficult and create more bad feelings about the BCA. This comes down to the National taking the chance and if Bill is right, we can't afford it. Of course we can't afford to do nothing either.

So far the best alternative I have seen in all the various threads on this topic is to allow membership at a reduced rate and that member gets no Bugle.

Other than this we ought to await Bills article and evidence in the spreadsheets he said he is working on.

[LINC400]

NTX5467, I have worked for many different retail companies over the years. I haven't been in retail for years. But the basic principles don't change. We had 2 types of sales. We had sales on new merchandise to get people in the door, and to get them to see our better merchandise so that they would keep coming back. We had end of season clearances to clear out the old crap. Sometimes there were spectacular deals, sometimes customers overpaid for crap. But the words "sale" and "free" always got them in the door.

If you buy more than you can sell, it isn't a good deal. But all the talk of old inventory, unable to sell extras. etc. do not apply here. You are not buying memberships from a supplier to try to sell at a reduced price and risking having them pile up in a warehouse. There is no overstock or unsold items you can't unload. You are simply offering a service at a reduced price in order to get people to sign up. It is what all service providers do.

Also, if you cannot get people to sign up for full price for one year, they are not going to pay full price and a half to sign up for 2. If I'm not sure that I want to belong to a club for one year, I'm certainly not going to sign up for 2. You cannot be guaranteed that you will get the money back or make it up later with additional years. The idea is to get them to try the club. If it is such a wonderful deal as people claim, then people should have no problem signing up for additional years after their trial membership is over. But if they don't, really what expense would there be that half price membership would not cover? The Bugle is already being printed for existing members. So this would just be some extra copies and the postage to mail them. $25.00 will not cover that for one year? If it is really going to bankrupt the club to send out a few extra copies, then why not just Xerox cheap black and white copies, and the half price members can pick them up at an event. Or just leave regular copies out for them to look at, but they can't take them home.

I also have a WebTV, and still use it. So I am very familiar with slow downloads or unable to download at all. However with an email newsletter, our editor does everything on the computer. He is able to type articles, receive and post pictures, set up everything on the page, and change everything as many times as he wants. All at no cost. I don't care how great of a deal you get from the printer. Nothing beats zero cost. Our newsletter is far more professional looking by email than it ever was from a printer. Because he can use as much color and complicated layouts as he wants, and change it around as many times as he wants until he is pleased with the look. All without paying any charges or extras to a printer. Then everything is sent by email, eliminating postage. For those few members than absolutely cannot receive it by email, or simply protest that they must have a mailed copy, he simply prints it off his computer and mails it. All it costs for the printing is small portion of an ink cartridge and a stack of blank paper. No professional printer can match that deal. If he has to mail it to half the people, we save 50% of our postage costs, if he mails it to a quarter of the people, we save 75%. No way to get any savings like that with a printer and snail mail.

Edited March 4, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

LINC400, I'm glad your "sale" and "free" retail experiences were generally good ones. I am also aware of the fine line between attracting customers with "sale" items and another sales tactic that is not good to do, NOT that that might have been operative in your activities.

I'm glad your "Zero Cost" business model for your car club membership works.

When I woke up this morning and was getting ready for work, I recalled something I read in a computer magazine a few years ago regarding CDs and DVDs as storage devices, much less entertainment content items. What we see when we look at a CD or DVD is a round item that looks like a smaller phonograph record, but smooooth. Deep inside it, as it's core is a layer of thin metal (as aluminum foil, or similar) which the "write" drive's mechanism uses light to punch holes in, in binary form. This sort of storage is considered to be better than magnetic formats, but it can still have some long-term durability issues. Seems that with exposure to heat and such, over time, the foil can degrade internally and eventually make the disc unreadable. Some claim this is underway by the time the disc is 12 years old, if not before (if stored on the sun visor of a vehicle or similar).

When I was in junior college, I worked on the school's newspaper. We used production facilities of the local newspaper. The storage media for articles was punched paper tape, about 1 inch wide. After the article was finished, the tape was rolled up and labeled for the printer to use later. Much better than magnetic tape, back then.

I realize this can be a generational thing, but people who have grown up with computers and implicitly trust them for their daily lives and such have a different set of experiences than others who grew up in more "analog" times. Purely observations which have evolved over the years--nothing more.

In the retail sales end of our operation, which also included deliveries to customers, it was normal to accept personal or company checks. Many people just marked "PAID" on the invoice and put the check in a safe place for later delivery to the company cashier. Should the check be dishonored by the bank, it was returned. If the company desired to prosecute the person who gave us the check, then proof of what the customer purchased was needed. Just going back and finding a sales invoice for that amount would not be good enough, nor would an invoice with the customer's name and purchased items, as there was not way to conclusively tie that check to that transaction. What the "theft of merchandise/services" involved needed complete disclosure and definition.

One item I picked up from another dealership's operation was to mark the sales invoice "PAID CHK # ________" and then put the sales invoice number in the "MEMO" section of the check. This way, the check is conclusively tied to a particular sales invoice and vice versa. It also made it much easier to retrieve the original sales invoice from the files. Think "tracking information" via archived data. The issue of getting a driver's license number is variable, though. All of this was "hard copy" rather than "electronic media" and the search was easy to do.

Similar with paper parts books, too! Easier to track part number changes or find catalog errors as there were hard copies to deal with--been there, done that. Electronic media, even DVD-based upgrades, had no archival capabilities unless you re-loaded the DVDs into the server or had another computer with software that would read them.

So, for those who might wish to archive data, a printed item will generally have better long-term durability than something stored in magnetic or electronic media. Some brands of printer ink now speak of their 100 year durability on archival paper in certain conditions. Although hard drives are much more reliable now, crashes to happen. It would be neat to have all of the magazines downloaded to a laptop that could travel anywhere, so long as it didn't crash or become damaged in transportation. Of course, they could be backed-up on external hard drives or flash drives, but at what additional cost for the hardware? TWO years worth of BCA dues for one large external storage device, possibly, even on sale, dependent upon how big you wanted? Might the operating system they were built on be usable in the longer-term future? Everything might be rosy now, but what about when the computer will cost more to repair than replace, with a current operating system that might not read the earlier files?

I also realize that electronic media is here to stay and is getting better all of the time, but when the related operating systems (from prior times) or if the customer might desire an "open" system rather than Windows somewhere in the mix, there will be other ways to have the new system read Windows programs/data, that can take some extra things to make work. So, as a result, the user might opt to let the earlier files go by the wayside to storage-land, not unlike putting them in the trash can. Be that as it may.

At the present time, there are many ways which potential members can be shown what it's like to be BCA members, but with a few exclusions. At the chapter level, prospective members can usually attend chapter meetings as they might desire, as "guests". In some cases, they can enter their cars in car shows, sometimes in the Car Corral, non-judged display, or possibly under the title of "Member At Large". In doing so, they can be welcomed into the activities and see if they are right for them. Sometimes, they just want to enter their car in the show and that's all they have any intention of doing, but that can be variable. How many times they can do that without joining might need some consideration, though. Some members might even give them their BUGLEs, if desired. ALL without any chapter dues or BCA membership fees being paid. "FREE" is alive and well!

Non-members can also attend BCA national meets as "guests" or "spectators", but some registration fees might be involved. As I understand it, the "Member At Large" title can also be used in some cases.

So, there are many ways for potential members give the BCA a "test drive" to see if they want to join, now or later. Amid all of these "FREE" things, the VALUE of being a BCA member should be emphasized to the potential members (many of which might just want to sell a car they have, by observation), even if they might not have a Buick at the present time, but just like them. Having a print magazine copy to give them can be a good idea--which would have more impact on them than handing them a DVD or CD which their earlier-model or "work" computer might not be able to read and would also be better than a copy of something from some member's printer (with all due respect).

As with motivating buyers to purchase new vehicles, giving them a "test drive" can intensify their desires or just the opposite. Just "where the deal falls apart" can be variable. People don't mind paying more for some imports and getting less automotive real estate or features than a comparable domestic vehicle of the same type might offer, IF "Value" and "Benefits for ME" are perceived to be in the total purchase equation. Many sales trainers will tell the salesperson to first focus on "Value and Benefits" than price, although a general price criteria might need to be investigated. But for many in this discussion, the greater focus is on "Price" and nothing more and who list "Price" as their "deal breaker". In many car salespeople's speil, the total purchase price is not as important as the monthly payment, regardless of how long the term might be. If the customer can get the monthly expenses right, term seems to be insignificant, IF the vehicle is what they feel they want.

Remember that Buick outsold Plymouth in 1955 due to the innovative (at the time) GMAC 36 month car loans, which was "new" at that time. Buy a Buick Special or Century for a few dollars a month more than a "mundane Low-Price-Three brand" worked the trick.

Rather than write a check for your BCA National Dues, use the capability to do it via the credit cards so you can get past "sticker shock" and have your own monthly payments! Then pay your chapter dues with "cash or check" and you're done. Just like buying a new 1955 Buick, "cash down" and "monthly payments" of your choosing!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[LINC400]

I fail to see what bounced checks and having back up for them has to with anything in this post.

Computers can crash, cd's can be demagnetized and melt if left in the sun. And a printer made Bugle can be destroyed in a fire, flood, hurricane, tornado, wind blew it away on the way to the printer, dog ate it, rained on, someone stole the briefcase with it, coffee spilled on it etc. Yet that is how you have done for years. If you want to nitpick every possible reason an email Bugle might not work fine. But I think you are doing yourself a disservice. If the main cost for the club is the Bugle, an email version can bring your costs down to a small fraction of what you currently spend on it. As as I have already said countless times, You can print it and mail it if you want a printed copy. You can also print it from the email. You can print it hundreds of times from the one email. From the printer, you get one copy mailed to you. Our current editor has it saved on his computer, has it saved on a disk, and prints copies to keep on hand. There are 3 versions of it saved as compared to your one from the printer. If his house is gutted by fire, flood whatever, out of the hundreds of people that received it by email, someone will have saved the email or a printed copy and can email it back to him once he buys a new house and computer.

He has shown the previous editors how he does it, and they are amazed at how he can get much better results doing things that they spent countless hours on with just a few clicks of a button. And he just has a regular PC, not a hundred thousand dollar mainframe.

I didn't like the idea at first. I liked getting something in the mail that wasn't junk mail. But now that I have been receiving it via email for a year and a half, It is actually better. Before there was one copy that could get lost in the mail, or I could misplace. If for any reason, I don't get the email, I just tell them (it happened once). It is sent again in seconds as soon as they receive my call or email and are able to do it. I don't have to hope they have an extra copy they can send and wait days for it in the mail. And they can resend countless times, or still mail a copy. I can lose my copy or wreck it and don't have to call for another. I can reprint it as many times as I want. And I don't have to go out in the snow and rain to get it from the mailbox. But then if you want to sit there and spend all the clubs's money on a printer and postage, and think of reasons why it may possibly somehow not work via email......

And you are already offering everything you have listed above for guests. I assume that is not bringing in enough people otherwise this post wouldn't exist. A reduced price trial membership is an excellent idea that might get new members into the club.

I can see presenting a few facts why something might not work. But if you simply want to shoot down every idea that might help. Your situation will not improve. Personally the continued shooting down of ideas that might help would be a huge deterrent for me in joining any club.

Edited March 5, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[Bill Stoneberg]

Linc400,

One question for you, that we have been wrestling with, is how do you keep me (A member only, not on the BOD in this scenerio) from sending you, a non member (assumption) the copy of the Bugle that I recieved in e-mail ? Now you dont have to join to get your own copy.

That may work if everyone recieved their copy electronically but we have heard from many (if not most) members that they dont want the Bugle is any other form besides printed.

[LINC400]

We actually receive an email notification that the newsletter is ready to be viewed. We have a website that you have to log on to with a password. Your password doesn't work if you are not a member or paid up.

However, even with your current printed version, I can scan it, and print out as many color copies as I want, or email it to anyone I want with my cheapo $99 printer.

If you have a lot of members that insist on having a printed copy mailed to them, you simply print it off the computer and mail it. When we wanted to switch to online renewal to save postage and trips to the bank depositing checks, we offered a discount to anyone that renewed online. You could do the same with the email Bugle. Offer a discount to members that receive it by email or charge more to those that require it being mailed to cover postage. You would be surprised how many people no longer insisted that they would not renew online when they were informed it would cost them more to do it by mail.

Edited March 5, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[HurstGN]

Regarding a printed Bugle vs an electronic Bugle. What's to prevent me from handing my printed copy to a friend, and they pass it around to other friends? Do you ever get literature mailed to your local chapter? Does the sender mail you one copy for each member in your chapter? Or do they mail you one copy and you pass it around to those that want to see it?

If somebody gets a physical Bugle in their hands and really wants to keep it, they'll join. COOL! A new member. The electronic version can be spread to more people, yes this is true. But this gets your publication in front of more people. If all they want is to see the Bugle, and do NOTHING else, then they're lost to you anyways. I'm sure they'll find a friend to let them look at the printed Bugle. But if you get the Bugle in front of people, and if you get them interested in coming to a chapter to see what it's all about, then you have a fighting chance to get them to join.

And while I'm at it, I just have to vent over the free chapter membership that was kicked around in earlier posts. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?!? The local chapters are the front lines. They spend money to have events and activities to make the "people" part of the BCA work. This is where MOST of the people meet and enjoy each other's company. Why would you ever recommend the local chapter take the financial hit? In the past I had suggested an "Associate" membership at the chapter level. The member was a member of the local chapter only. NOT the national. And this memebr only had rights to what the local chapter did, NOT the national. This included any voting rights, insurance coverage, etc provided or related to the national. This was a way to get them in the door for $10-$15 and they could see the benefit of the BCA as a family that was more than the local chapter. The associate member would hear the benefits of joining the national and they could make the decision to join the national. After one year of associate membership, they would have to decide to either join the national or leave. This gives the front line soldiers, the local chapter, one year to convince somebody of the worth of the national membership. If you can't sell it in a year, it's not for them anyways.

I know there will be a huge outcry over the associate idea, but I don't care. I still think it's a good way to get somebody interested without asking for $60 or more to find out if they like it. Dare I say it, it's that "sale" or the "freebie" to get them hooked. (OK, just lost NTX) With the associate deal, you get to proove your worth. If you can't increase membership by doing this, then you need to rethink your entire direction since you had an entire year to make the "sale". Keeping the initial buy in at $20 or less is a far easier sale than an initial buy in of $60 or more.

I'll shut up now. Fire up the flamethrowers over this one....doesn't matter to me. The whole $50 thing has me at the edge already. And it's not just the number 50...it's the increase without added value. Right now it's the local chapter that has me staying....because we are an extended family and I'm in it for this family. I can't count how many times I've not brought out my Buick because I was busy carrying thousands of dollars worth of DJ equipment to a show. Or how much time and material was donated to the local chapter in the form of custom artwork, printing, laser engraving....and all donated. And in our chapter, it's not just me, it's the entire chapter. Hosting a regional and having a picnic in the park for ALL the attendees, and charging them $0 (here's that dirty "free" word again) for the food and drinks...that was all due to the hard work of the chapter and the donated time, effort and resources of the chapter. OK, I'm done...flame away. I'm tired of typing and amazed if anyone read through this rant this far.

[LINC400]

I read it. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Buick Bruce]

As a former printer specializing in books, booklets and manuals, I believe digital distribution will be become the norm sooner or later. And it seems technology and economics tend to push the "sooner" end of the spectrum.

I got this email a few minutes ago:

"Goodguys Offer new "Digital Gazette" Membership

"The Goodguys Gazette has gone digital! Oh nothing's changed if you're a dues paying member / you'll still be receiving your favorite all-color monthly magazine in the mailbox, but now members will have the option of viewing their Gazette online on their personal computer! Digital magazine subscriptions have become increasingly popular in the past few years offering magazine subscribers a different option when it comes to getting your monthly magazine fix.

"The new digital Goodguys Gazette will be the exact same product that is delivered via conventional mail, only the experience will be enhanced with the ability to "crop and print" a picture of your ride right from the Gazette pages, zoom in to photos for max detail, interact with dynamic Ads that are directly linked to the advertiser's websites and much more!

"The new digital-only Gazette subscription will soon be available for just $20 for twelve online issues. For current Goodguys members the new digital magazine will be offered free of charge as a value added perk of membership. So watch your email inbox VERY soon for your link and official password to kick start your Goodguys online experience!"

and just to put a better perspective on the Goodguys deal, here's their standard membership rates:

United States Canada & Mexico International Customers

1 Year $35.00 US $85.00 US $120.00 US

2 Years $70.00 US $170.00 US $240.00 US

3 Years $105.00 US $255.00 US $360.00 US

interesting that there's no multi-year discount.

I absolutely love the convenience and portability of a traditional Bugle . . . but I admit I'm rather old school - I don't have a laptop (yet). But my next computer will be one, and at that point the "zoom in photo details" and "interactive linked ads" could be VERY appealing.

[Thriller]

There is a huge difference in ease between forwarding an e-mail, and scanning a magazine, printing it, and making copies for all your non-BCA friends. Even if it is password protected, it becomes an honour system to keep your pw yours. As far as that goes, have any of you heard about the Churchill High School teachers dancing? If you have, that is due to cell phone video going viral. When Facebook meets forwarding of links, it gets around the world in a hurry.

If I pass along a physical Bugle, someone else sees it, and perhaps they pass it along, and so on, with possibly many potential new members as a result. From what I have heard on these forums, many folks don't keep their Bugles forever, so unless they are just thrown in the trash or recycling, they get passed along already.

The local chapters are the hands and feet of the BCA in most areas. If I remember correctly, our VP had put together a list of the most populous areas in the USA without chapters. There's a lot of folks not generally within reach of a chapter. So, if all focus is on the chapter level, there's a lot of geography missed. That group is also the group for which the Bugle is absolutely crucial. It becomes the lifeblood of the BCA and primary communication medium (as these forums are not generally used for official club business).

If chapters had "associate" memberships, then how long might it be before the chapter has a majority of such memberships who vote to rescind BCA membership and simply become a local Buick club? I could see that happening, without trying to find a negative simply to find a negative. Now, if the associate membership was a one year only thing or one time only, that might be different. However, how do you break it to someone who enjoys a local club that their membership of $20 last year is $70 this year? Wait a minute...that sounds a lot like the discounted first time membership we started with.

The other thing is that those chapters who are offering the first year membership free to new recruits are likely not suffering as a result. Assuming the chapters are reasonably well run, they looked at their finances, their historical recruiting rate, and perhaps added in a fudge factor to ensure they could afford it. Those chapters who may not be able to afford it should not offer such a thing.

I'm tired...I'd better stop before I start repeating myself or somehow otherwise get myself in more folks' bad books.

[NTX5467]

You see, LINC400, when you download your copy of the newsletter/magazine from the designated website, using your password to get to it, the intent is that you'll read it for yourself and possibly send it to a prospective member or possibly a friend that might have a vehicle featured in an article that particular month. Nothing really different than if you receive your printed copy in the mail and then pass it on to some other interested party/prospective member after you're through with it.

But let's say that a paid-up current member uses their valid password to get to the website and download the e-pub .pdf document, what's to keep you from viral emailing it to the "whole world", in this scenario, or non-members who now can get the magazine without a club membership, due to your generosity? Why should they join the club if they can get the magazine via other channels?

What this comes down to is control of intellectual property. You can CopyRight the document, but that's also something which must be self-policed by the CopyRighting entity themselves rather than some Federal Watchdog entity. There also might be some ways to attempt to protect the document, even in .pdf form and less so in .doc form, to keep third parties from altering or editing it to their preference and/or then passing it off as "their own" (think "hi-jack"). Even so, it's my understanding (as I've been researching such things lately for another vehicle club entity I'm involved with) that any .pdf file can be downloaded and altered with the highest level of Adobe software, but that would come at a price of about $500.00. Word2007 has some additional protections built into it, but those protections can be turned off by the e-pub's recipient if they know how.

What I am seeking, in my other club newsletter involvement, is something similar to a license agreement for something of a limited multi-user license situation for the e-pub file. The end result would be that, we know who has downloaded the file via their valid password-of-the-quarter and then know that, if they desire, they can forward that file to only about three other email recipients. To date, we've not found how to make that happen, but we're still looking and if anybody might know how to reliably make that happen, please PM me via this website.

Therefore, while downloading e-pub files from accessible websites that are password protected, might afford a greater degree of convenience and such, but EACH download could potentially result in loss of control of intellectual property of the "The Bugle" and its contributors. As I mentioned, CopyRights and such must be self-policed by the owner of the CopyRight . . . no self-policing, even if it becomes common knowledge that the intellectual property has been stolen, results in "no case" for the original owner of the CopyRight.

In the automotive industry, plus the fashion industry, "trademark infringement" has been going on for about 25 years or more. In some cases, the litigation has been successful, in other cases, no real victory for the USA manufacturers. Still, MUCH EXPENSE to chase down and prosecute!

NOW, I need to make it perfectly clear, by mentioning these things I'm NOT trying to shoot down anything--period. The issues of intellectual property theft are much greater in the electronic media, in our case, than might be suspected on the surface. The easier it is for people to download files and print them, the easier it can be for third parties to steal and/or edit these same files for their own purposes OR to send them to a multitude of unauthorized recipients. In other words, the magazine Editor's and the magazine Owner's control of their intellectual property is lost really easily. To me, with all due respect, until these security issues are resolved, "The BUGLE" and "The BCA Membership Roster" should only be distributed in print form.

Distribution in CD/DVD form could allow similar levels of intellectual property protection as the print version might, but it would relatively easy to duplicate the CD/DVD files in their complete version by somebody with appropriate equipment and so motivated. Still, these could be valid distribution methods as the basic knowledge of who originally got them would be known. Still, the files could be downloaded from disc to the computer, altered, then saved to another disc and re-distributed in an unauthorized manner.

Key thing . . . anything electronic can be hacked and/or manipulated by motivated individuals, although you might put up some formidable defenses . . . from my observations and research.

From my experiences, to take the time to scan and reprint a magazine would be highly time-consuming and expensive, not to mention the investment in quality equipment (hi-resolution scanners and hi-quality photo-rated printers AND quality paper to make them "look right" when done AND worthy of being handed out to prospective members). Don't forget the stapler either! Not to say it couldn't be done, but few people might be motivated to go to the effort to make it happen on a large scale. Scanning and printing a particular article, giving appropriate credit to the source, probably happens much more often.

Password Protection for the website can only go so far, but I know how relatively easy it is for spammers to hack an email address' password to gain access to that email account to send emails that YOU didn't originate. From experience, webtv is much worse than normal Internet providers in this area.

We've been sensitized to be attentive to "identity theft" of our personal information, but publishers and authors are also sensitive to "intellectual property theft" to help protect the items they've put in many hours of work to accomplish (and related revenue streams) from being used without their permission or control.

Regards,

NTX5467

Edited March 6, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[LINC400]

From my experiences, to take the time to scan and reprint a magazine would be highly time-consuming and expensive, not to mention the investment in quality equipment (hi-resolution scanners and hi-quality photo-rated printers AND quality paper to make them "look right" when done AND worthy of being handed out to prospective members). Don't forget the stapler either! Not to say it couldn't be done, but few people might be motivated to go to the effort to make it happen on a large scale. Scanning and printing a particular article, giving appropriate credit to the source, probably happens much more often.

The copier I have at work can scan 60 pages a minute. Double sided would take twice as long. In other words, 2 minutes. The pages are fed automatically so you don't even have to stand there. It automatically converts it into an email. So I can virus email the entire world. Total time, less than five minutes.

Or if I want to make printed copies, it automatically seperates, collates, and staples up to twenty full color copies at a time. Again total time less than 5 minutes.

What is this wonder machine that we have? A 10 year old copier that we paid $900 for when new. I'm sure you can get something that works even better now for less brand new. Or pick up a used one dirt cheap.

Your obsession with someone stealing and emailing the whole world Bugles is bordering on ridiculous. If someone really wants to do that, they can do it right now. In less time than it takes to write this. They don't have to hack into anything on an email version. The Bugle might be a very nice newsletter, but it isn't made out of gold. We have had ZERO problems with our email newsletter for a year and a half. And no one has hacked into it and sent it all over the world.

I'm starting to think that maybe it would not be a bad thing to let the current Buick club die out. Then a new one can be formed that isn't so set in their ways.

Edited March 6, 2010 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[Rawja]

OK, how 'bout this?

Do an electronic version of the Bugle. (including additional content and all the back issues), log-in required.

Create a lower-cost membership level for E-only access (say 25 bucks).

Arrange to give away a complementary 2 year E-only membership to every purchaser of a new Buick. I know we have contacts at GM and this is the best kind of synergy, benefiting both organizations. We might even be able to negotiate some sort of additional monetary and or material support from Buick on this given their product resurgence and their focus on heritage as of late. Give them a few pages to feature current products which will help to underwrite the costs associated with the magazine and will tie the present, future and past of our favored brand together within the magazine.

So figure that's I dunno conservatively, 250,000 to 300,000 new members every year? At nearly zero cost (send 'em a membership card, maybe a trinket or a left-over Bugle issue), and even with say a 98% attrition rate at the end of the free period, you're looking at maybe 5,000 new pay members a year, every year?

Edited March 6, 2010 by Rawja (see edit history)

[Bill Stoneberg]

I'm starting to think that maybe it would not be a bad thing to let the current Buick club die out. Then a new one can be formed that isn't so set in their ways.

Why is it that folks who dont even belong to the BCA make comments like this ? You have never been to a Board meeting or a membership meeting so how can you comment that we are set i our ways ? Is your goal just to spread s**t around ?

For the most part the conversation has been informative and well behaved, you sir are completely out of line with that statement.

I am replying as myself, an member of the BCA and my opinions do not represent any one else on the BOD or the BCA. (disclaimer).

Bill

[38Buick 80C]

I want to jump in to.

Our chapter, the Carolina Chapter, covers the largest geographic area of any of the east coast chapters with the possible exception of the Minuteman chapter which has a comparable geographic footprint.

As a chapter we decided in an effort to help the BCA to give any new to the BCA member in our geographic coverage area free chapter membership. The cost to us is insignificant (newsletters mailing). The benefits ARE SIGNIFICANT. We have 10 new members since we implemented this in Sept. That means more cars at our car shows, more people at our events. More people means more relationships for the new members and our old members. More relationships means more resources to pull from whether it be for help on a tech issue, more people to volunteer for an event we are hosting, more people who know people who may want to join. More relationships mean a better BCA experience. The snow ball effect is very positive.

Do we have some free members that we have never seen, yup. Will all the free members rejoin when it costs money to them to renew in year 2, we'll find out. Some will some won't. We've done our part to help the BCA so we feel it's the right thing and is certainly better than the chapters who have no phone or email contact info in the Bugle just an address or worse yet the chapters who have phone numbers that are disconnected.